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Thread: Weird thoughts

  1. #1
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Weird thoughts

    Well they must be, considering the tendencies around here, most of them are neigh on opposite so henceforth: Weird speak:

    All the talk about Saras starting is sad to read, sad because IMO it is all so void of reality that it becomes that.
    Saras has shown flashes of being real good, at shooting the ball.
    He has shown that he is not a good "ball handler".
    He has shown that he has a loud mouth, but premature, prove yourself 1st over the course of a season, then see if you earned the right to call out collegues in an already volatile situation.
    It has become clear that Tins and Saras on the court together can be done and works, if anything Saras is as someone correctly noted far more a 2/1 then a 1/2 so playing WITH Tins is probably the ideal situation and that would be agreed upon by all on this forum had he had that last 3 on the pass from Tins, (I believe it was against Atl) had it hit, we would be singing the combo instead of kicking Tins of the team.
    Tins, I am sure of, is the starting PG for this team, everything Rick says points to that and the stats demand it, let's not forget that without Tins starting or playing this team is 1- 4 against 9-3 with him at the rudder.

    Did anyone notice that Ron's sump coincides wit hTins being out ? well I did.

    Tins is pouting, something I can not phatom, how do you know this, I mean observation is one, but can you be sure? was there something else on his mind, like a very sick kid? Or was he simply feeling lie a dog himself?
    Or maybe he is p'd of by the attitude of another player(s) on the team, but not speaking about it in public?

    Things that do bother me point in directions of one (1) player, someone we can all easy see "misbehaving".
    Perhaps that upsets other players like Tins, it certainly does upset JO and perhaps most likely it also upsets Cro, so why not Tins and Ron?

    My conlcusions from that make it even weirder.... They leave questions:

    Why does Rick not bench Jax, it is clearly not working WITH him in the line-up, so let's go without him for a while and see what happens.
    (And yes i understand that with Tins and Ron out that is hard)

    Hearing how much Rick wants Tins back in the line-up means that most likely Tins is not one of the problems of this team, which is also very hard to imagine seeing as what he has overcome in previous seasons and how for instance JO talks about him, so the main problem is with Jax.
    Now could Saras be another one?

    Not in a sense of "competition" with Tins, Tins is to me at least known to "pick up hte glove" in situations like that. and play his heart out.
    Also since they were together on the field to close out the last game Tins was there, I think that the two of them could be a great combo.
    But in speaking publically about what he thinks of the games and his collegues (not so flattering on occasion) he might be rubbing a few feathers left and right the wrong way.
    It goes without saying IMO that despite what we have seen Saras still needs to prove himself in the NBA, 82 games is a minimum for that, until then he remains a rook, and they are not well served by giving opinions on seasoned pro's.


    Keypart is that I do not understand Rick in not benching Jax, let's face it we have little to lose here, except for Jax misbehaving on court, getting T's up and breaking the offense while slacking on defense.
    I prefer to have someone on the court perhaps less talented but working his butt of and I am sure that Saras can fill in quite a few minutes as SG more then adequately.
    It does however mean that Tins has to play, because AJ..well uh it's AJ

    One bad apple can ruin a basket, one out of synch player can ruin a team, seems to me that after this board has taken apart JO, Tins, and other assorted players while hyping the rookies (what else is new) we are only slowly becomming sick and tired of Jax, who we now for the first time see in a role that he was hired for, 3rd option on offense, and defensive presence.
    It is clear to me that he can not (does not want) accept that role.
    Players who do not accept their "role" should be benched; JO did not yesterday all of a sudden come up with "you are either with us or gone" he sid that earlier in the season, when everyone was laughing at it, I am sure he is serious and I am pretty sure he means Jax.

    When KA came here, Tins was benched in favor of, got a chance from Mike and never looked back, who says benching Jax for a few weeks would not have the same effect?
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  2. #2
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    We can discuss whether Tinsley should start or whether Saras should start all day long, every day for months, but the fact of the matter is Tinsley is unable to play right now. So it is a moot point

    Except in very special situations, I don't want Tinsley and Saras playing together at the same time. Either one of them guarding a shooting guard is a disaster. Either one of them guarding a point guard is bad enough (although Tinsley is now an adequate defender) , but to have them both out there will kill our defense. Yes, I know the argument well our team defense will over for them, perhaps one bad matchup can be covered up, but not two.

    Besides the defense problems, I lke Saras to have the ball, seeing him just stand in the corner really is not that productive, yes he does draw one defender, but it doesn't put as much pressure on the defense.



    As far as benching Jax, I think that is what Rick planned to do until Ron injured his wrist. But now if you read Rick's comments about how not having Artest limits things you can do, I expect Jax to start, because we need his offensive threat, and maybe now he'll get enough shots to get into a rythem.

  3. #3
    3ballinhoop
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    After all the things you have been writing about Tinsley/Jasikevicius it is clear that you can't be taken seriously on that particular subject.
    For instance, you have stated that Saras would produce 9 eight second violations per game if he would start. You even said that though you come from or are in Europe, where nobody interested in Basketball would write something that stupid, simply because everybody has seen Sarunas prove himself. That one statement actually made you look very ridiculous, especially when i saw that one (1) 8 sec that you based it upon, where the ball was bounded in and given to Saras with like 2 seconds to go.
    Then after the Seattle game you, as the only person on this board, saw "no offensive flow whatsoever" over the entire game, which shows that you try to find some cheap shots on Jasikevicius wherever you can and will miss no opportunity to critisize him.

    I guess it must be damn hard for you to take that Saras after 16 games in the NBA already has far more sympathies in the Conseco than your man TinTin has "Melled" up in 4 years.

    I still think Tinsley is a good player, but he doesnt get better by your effort to tell everybody how bad Sarunas Jasikevicius is.

    3ball

  4. #4
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    I have seen only one pacers game yet, so I have a question:
    Who crosses the half-coart with the ball when saras plays?
    And you know, he never did that in europe, just because of his dribbling limitations. In all teams he played somebody else took the ball to the key and passed it to him there. Saras desperatly needs quick shooter with good dribling near him at 2 and three athletic 3,4,5 moving without the ball.
    Give him that and he'll get you the championship.
    By the way, what I rarely see in NBA in comparison to Euroleague, is movement without the ball. And this is the core of the team play. If you don't move without the ball, don't set screens without the ball then you don't play team offence. The Phil triangle in Chicago could have worked with stars like MJ, but their time has gone. Especially with Indiana roster that only player who seem to have reverse jump shot is Jax and he is a dead horse.
    The Saras low assists statistics indicate that movement without the ball is very limited in pacers game. Most assists that Tinsley has are from penetration and acrobatic passing and not from team play.
    I think that the key to improve situation is team offence. As soon as guys will start moving unselfishly they will help each other in defence. Moreover, their problem is mental and as soon as everybody will be involved in team offence, they will gain some motivation and improve defence.
    In any case Sjax has to be benched.
    What do you think?

  5. #5
    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    nice post, but what is so wierd about these thoughts?

  6. #6
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    Very interesting responses:

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ballinhoop
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    For instance, you have stated that Saras would produce 9 eight second violations per game if he would start. You even said that though you come from or are in Europe, where nobody interested in Basketball would write something that stupid, simply because everybody has seen Sarunas prove himself. That one statement actually made you look very ridiculous, especially when i saw that one (1) 8 sec that you based it upon, where the ball was bounded in and given to Saras with like 2 seconds to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lithfan
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    Who crosses the half-coart with the ball when saras plays?
    And you know, he never did that in europe, just because of his dribbling limitations. In all teams he played somebody else took the ball to the key and passed it to him there.
    Not just because they contradict each other, but because one supports itself with a specific observations while the other just calls names.

    Almost makes me want to draw a Goofus and Gallant comic ...
    BillS

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  7. #7
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    General comments:

    I can't remember if I actually posted my thoughts on Saras' problems or if it was one of those essays that got out of hand so I never saved it. In any event, I think Saras has some fans on the team but also has some people he rubbed the wrong way - and I think Jax is one of them.

    I think Rick's reluctance to do anything that looks like a public calling out of his players is hurting us in the Jax situation. If it were me, I'd be benching Jax for a while just to see what everyone else can do without him in there. Given recent evidence, I don't think we could do much worse than being stomped by the last-place teams in the league, can we?
    BillS

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  8. #8
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    Very interesting responses:





    Not just because they contradict each other, but because one supports itself with a specific observations while the other just calls names.

    Almost makes me want to draw a Goofus and Gallant comic ...

    If you want names, Anthony Parker in Maccabi Tel-Aviv used to take the ball to the key and then give it to Saras.

    Saras said in his interview that its hard to understand how can his teammates be so unmotivated. I'll add - especially when they get payed freaking millions for just playing ball.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    Able,

    I would be very happy to have Tins as the starting point for this team IF he could stay healthy. The only problem I have with Tinsley is that he cannot shoot the ball. At this level you have to be able to make people guard you and when he doesn't have the ball his man leaves him.

    I would be willing to overlook this if he could stay healthy. This is something he cannot does not do. We have to keep a solid third point guard (although he has struggled this year) on this team just for the times that he goes down with an injury or sickness.

    I like Tins but we must make a change for a solid point guard. I don't care if he is a starter or a great backup that is a lock down defender. I honestly think that we need to package Tins, AJ, Jax and Pollard in a trade for a starting SG (one that can hit an open three and can defend well) and a solid PG. The people that we need to look for need to have a track record of not getting injured.

    By the way I realize that this would have to be a three team or more deal but I am not smart enough to work one out.

  10. #10
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithfan
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    If you want names, Anthony Parker in Maccabi Tel-Aviv used to take the ball to the key and then give it to Saras.

    Saras said in his interview that its hard to understand how can his teammates be so unmotivated. I'll add - especially when they get payed freaking millions for just playing ball.

    He meant that your post was using actual game observations, and 3ballin's post was just calling Able names, i.e. ridiculous and such.

    He wasn't specfically asking you to give him names, you provided actual game information.

    Damn language barrier.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach
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    I honestly think that we need to package Tins, AJ, Jax and Pollard in a trade for a starting SG (one that can hit an open three and can defend well) and a solid PG. The people that we need to look for need to have a track record of not getting injured.
    This a trade that works that would be pretty good for us (if you agree with Coach et al on the needs of the team right now):

    Indiana Trade Breakdown
    Outgoing
    Scot Pollard
    6-11 C from Kansas
    3.9 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 17.6 minutes
    Stephen Jackson
    6-8 SG from Oak Hill Academy (HS)
    18.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.3 apg in 35.4 minutes
    Jamaal Tinsley
    6-3 PG from Iowa State
    15.4 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 6.4 apg in 32.5 minutes
    Anthony Johnson
    6-3 PG from Charleston
    8.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 27.7 minutes
    Incoming
    Aaron Williams
    6-9 PF from Xavier
    2.0 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 7.9 minutes
    Mike James
    6-2 PG from Duquesne
    12.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 25.6 minutes
    Morris Peterson
    6-7 SG from Michigan State
    12.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 30.6 minutes
    Alvin Williams
    6-5 from Villanova
    No games yet played in 2004/05
    Change in team outlook: -19.4 ppg, -6.9 rpg, and -8.6 apg.

    Toronto Trade Breakdown
    Outgoing
    Aaron Williams
    6-9 PF from Xavier
    2.0 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 7.9 minutes
    Mike James
    6-2 PG from Duquesne
    12.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 25.6 minutes
    Morris Peterson
    6-7 SG from Michigan State
    12.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 30.6 minutes
    Alvin Williams
    6-5 from Villanova
    No games yet played in 2004/05
    Incoming
    Scot Pollard
    6-11 C from Kansas
    3.9 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 17.6 minutes
    Stephen Jackson
    6-8 SG from Oak Hill Academy (HS)
    18.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.3 apg in 35.4 minutes
    Jamaal Tinsley
    6-3 PG from Iowa State
    15.4 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 6.4 apg in 32.5 minutes
    Anthony Johnson
    6-3 PG from Charleston
    8.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 27.7 minutes
    Change in team outlook: +19.4 ppg, +6.9 rpg, and +8.6 apg.


    Successful Scenario
    Due to Indiana and Toronto being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Toronto had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

    Our new lineup:

    Jasikevicius/James/Al.Williams
    Peterson/Jones
    Artest/Granger
    Croshere/Foster
    O'Neal/Harrison/Ar.Williams

  12. #12
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weird thoughts

    Ignoring the personal insults by one poster; Coach I do disagree with you here and think you are to quick on the trigger as far as dealing Tins goes. His shot aint that bad, lemme show you something here:

    Tins % last year (when he had to shoot) FG .418 sPt .372
    This year, FG .462 3Pt .333

    Now I agree that the 3pt % should be up, but.... His late in game 3s fall more frequently then the desperation heaves at times with no shotclock left.

    But let's compare him to some of our friends on the team this year and last:

    Our hero last year: Reggie Miller; FG .437 3Pt .322
    Our SF last year: (Jax) FG .403 3Pt .360
    and Jax this year as SG: FG .417 3Pt .338

    now the fact that he doesn't shoot as much has much more to do with coaching then ability it seems, after all if he heaved up as many shots as Jax, we would likely see him averaging 16 or more points instead of the neigh on 10 he does score now (he's taking half the number of shots jax takes)

    It is easy to blame him for what's wrong and yes I agree durability is an important factor but didn't we all agree some time ago (two seasons or so) that to keep Tins fit (and he came in fit this year, really ready) we needed to "curtail" his minutes in the regular season to 24 - 28 or so, even Rick agreed on that, one other reason to get Saras, yet how many minutes did Tins average the start of the season? lemme help you, 36!

    How come that we are 1-4 without Tins and 9-3 with him?

    Though I only read Bruno's article after I posted this thread, I can easily say I agree completely about the two units and their workings, using Saras as #1 of the bench and thus playing minutes with Tins as well, would probably tell you in the first quarter what the ending 5 would be.

    Jax' attitude and woefull percentages and selection are far more reason for bad blood in this team then anything else. Winning makes you kind of forget what all else there is, let's do something about one (the most serious) problem at a time and see what happens from there.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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