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Thread: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    I for one don't need this statistical breakdown to prove to me how great a defender Ronnie is, but even I am a bit staggered by the results.

    However I don't think that is the most significant thing. The fact that Rick Carlisle would set out to prove that Ronnie is defensive player of the year shows that Rick will go to bat for his players. Ronnie might not say anything publically about how much he appreciates what Rick did, heck knowing Ron he may not really care, but Ron's teammates will appreciate their coach going out of his way to highlight one of his players.

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.

    As far as the actual stats this project produced, I agree with Rick, Ronnie keeps the best offensive player from even getting the ball, and isn't that really the best way to defend the great scorers at the small forward and shooting guard spot.





    http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/133142-3244-039.html



    By the numbers: Artest is tenacious defender



    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com
    March 28, 2004


    Ron Artest's defensive impact has been so significant for the Indiana Pacers that even his coach, Rick Carlisle, was having difficulty finding words to measure its value. So Carlisle devised a way to let numbers tell the story.

    Carlisle assigned two members of the Pacers' video staff, Rob Cleveland and intern Mike Mannix, to review, through computer technology and DVDs, each one of Artest's defensive possessions in the team's first 71 games.

    What they discovered, after 50-60 combined hours of research, was recorded on seven spreadsheet pages and confirmed every notion Carlisle had about Artest's defensive ability.

    The bottom line: The players Artest has defended have combined to average just 9.4 shots and 8.4 points per game, while shooting slightly better than 40 percent.

    That doesn't just include Artest's primary defensive assignment, which is always the opponent's best perimeter scoring threat, but any player he might have switched to during the course of a possession.

    "In my mind, that's the most staggering defensive statistic I've ever heard in my life," said Carlisle, whose team plays Miami today at Conseco Fieldhouse. "[size=18:c54b7ca0e5]Not only are you going to have trouble scoring on Ron Artest and not only are you going to have trouble getting good shots, you're going to have trouble catching the ball.[/size] It's the strongest statistical case I've ever seen for a perimeter player for Defensive Player of the Year."

    Carlisle now has endless data to support his argument, and will proudly offer it in promoting Artest for the award.

    In the Pacers' third game of the season at Atlanta, for example, the players Artest defended combined to hit 3-of-10 shots. His primary assignment, Stephen Jackson, was 2-of-8. In the following game against Denver at the fieldhouse, Artest's matchups hit 4-of-17 shots.

    When LeBron James scored 26 points on 12-of-22 shots in Cleveland's win over the Pacers on March 14, the box score indicated Artest might have met his match that day. The video review, however, showed that James hit just 2-of-5 shots against Artest, who was in foul trouble in the first half.

    Pick a game, almost any game, and Artest wreaked havoc for the opposing team's offense.

    Artest's teammates don't need highly nuanced statistical evidence of his defense. They see it almost every game, every practice.

    "Defensive Player of the Year. Period," Reggie Miller blurted following Friday's win at Orlando, when Artest scored a career-high 35 points and held Magic forward Drew Gooden to six. "If they screw him on this one, the league has a different agenda."

    Actually, the honor is determined by a vote of writers and broadcasters. Artest was runner-up to Ben Wallace last season, and got more respect from that group than from the league's coaches, who vote for the all-defensive team. They relegated Artest to second-team status, apparently taking into consideration his suspensions and flagrant fouls.

    Wallace remains Artest's primary challenger for the honor. He won it the past two seasons while playing for Carlisle in Detroit, and has numbers to support his cause again. He ranks second in blocks (3.14), third in defensive rebounds (8.7) and eighth in steals (1.8).

    Artest's lone argument among the conventional defensive-oriented statistics is that he's fourth in steals (2.11 per game). Carlisle, however, believes his team defensive concept has limited Artest in that area. Beyond that, he didn't believe any of the conventional stats would begin to reflect Artest's overall ability, which is why he sent Cleveland and Mannix into solitary confinement.

    Wallace is an effective weak-side defender because of his quickness and shot-blocking ability, but he's not widely regarded as a stopper.

    The Pistons, in fact, usually assigned Cliff Robinson to Jermaine O'Neal while Carlisle coached there. And in the Pacers' three games against Detroit this season, with Robinson safely tucked away on Golden State's roster, O'Neal has averaged 23 points.

    Artest, meanwhile, has the versatility to defend any position, including center if the player isn't too much taller than him. At 6-7 and 245 pounds, his strength, foot-speed, reach, agility and will make for an uncommon package that enables him to deal with almost any scoring threat.

    "It's freakish for a guy his size to have his quickness and his strength," Miller said. "No disrespect to Ben Wallace, but Ron's guarding different guys."

    Pacers forward Austin Croshere also is impressed by Artest's instinct -- and grateful not to have to play against him.

    "He just has a higher level of hand-eye coordination and ability to react to what he sees than anybody I've ever played with," Croshere said. "He's the last person I would want in the entire NBA to guard me."

    Artest was surprised to hear of the statistical mother lode the Pacers uncovered on his behalf but offered no particular reaction. Nor has he given much thought to his chances for winning Defensive Player of the Year. He admits to keeping track of Wallace last season but hasn't bothered this time around.

    "The season's not over, and I know they pick when the season is over," he said. "I'll wait and evaluate after the season -- for maybe an hour, because then we have to worry about the playoffs."

  2. #2
    Theshop
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    [color=red:98e722b728]THE BEAST[/color]

  3. #3

    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    He will win it...They always seem to give the player who deserved it the year before the award a year late. Even though I voted for Andrei Kirilenko, Ron Artest will probably win the thing. He deserves it and we all know that he really does care about the award, even if he says he doesn't.

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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    [color=red:38726a9593]THE BEAST[/color]
    Sorry his New Nick Name is The Human Hammer

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    [color=red:fe6d6f83d7]THE BEAST[/color]
    Sorry his New Nick Name is The Human Hammer
    Where'd that 'nick come from?

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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    [color=red:7a6c396ff6]THE BEAST[/color]
    Sorry his New Nick Name is The Human Hammer
    Where'd that 'nick come from?
    Weren't you watching the Magic Game? I don't remember who said it but one of the announcers said it and the chat room went crazy with Human Hammer Chants

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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    [color=red:2435ae51e1]THE BEAST[/color]
    Sorry his New Nick Name is The Human Hammer
    Where'd that 'nick come from?
    Weren't you watching the Magic Game? I don't remember who said it but one of the announcers said it and the chat room went crazy with Human Hammer Chants
    That would be Al Alberts.

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year


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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    i wonder if we can get comparative stats with other players, like other reputed stoppers such as kirilenko, christie, bowen. maybe carlisle will hire out his research team

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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    I expect the worse because the media selects this award!!!
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    [color=red:31fffe725a]THE BEAST[/color]
    Sorry his New Nick Name is The Human Hammer
    Where'd that 'nick come from?
    Weren't you watching the Magic Game? I don't remember who said it but one of the announcers said it and the chat room went crazy with Human Hammer Chants
    That would be Al Alberts.
    For what it's worth I think we should stick with "The Beast". But then again, what would I know.

    beast23

  12. #12
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    That is so exaggerated............ ugh.

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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    Please refer to your post this morning about the youngest team in basketball.


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    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    Please refer to your post this morning about the youngest team in basketball.


    Don't you ever ask them why
    If they told you, you would cry
    So just look at them and sigh
    And know they love you
    Are you suggesting that, because they are young, they don't know any better?

    ed:

    That's a pathetic attempt at an answer on your part.

  16. #16
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    That is so exaggerated............ ugh.
    Um, no it's not.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    That is so exaggerated............ ugh.
    Um, no it's not.
    I'm not sure, but I think it's exaggerating when only 3/15 players are upset is a "mutiny."

  18. #18
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    That is so exaggerated............ ugh.
    Um, no it's not.
    I'm not sure, but I think it's exaggerating when only 3/15 players are upset is a "mutiny."
    When those three are your three BEST players: yes, it could be considered such. Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, and Al Harrington carry a bit more weight on the roster than, say, Austin Croshere, Freddie Jones, and Premoz Brezec.

    Next time, instead of seeing only what you want to see, look at the details.

  19. #19
    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    NewYawk, is there a reason why your tone is always so hostile?

    It's gotten really old really quick.

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    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    NewYawk, is there a reason why your tone is always so hostile?

    It's gotten really old really quick.
    When I get answers like this: "That is so exaggerated............ ugh," it perfectly honest questions, I tend to get a little hostile.

    I personally think Carlisle is a great coach with great relationships with the Pacers. however, for all his lobbying for Ben Wallace last year, there was ZERO sympathy from many Detroit players when he got the boot. I find that odd. Thus, the question.

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    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    When I get answers like this: "That is so exaggerated............ ugh," it perfectly honest questions, I tend to get a little hostile.
    Well, then, maybe you shouldn't. He was stating his opinion in a manner that's no more forceful than most of your own posts. You can't start provocative threads or make bold statements in posts and then get all defensive when someone disagrees with you strongly. That's just childish and annoying.

    I'm just saying that your tone often makes it impossible to take the content of your posts seriously, which is a shame, becuase otherwise your opinions should be just as valid as anyone else's. No offense, just an FYI. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

  22. #22
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    When I get answers like this: "That is so exaggerated............ ugh," it perfectly honest questions, I tend to get a little hostile.
    Well, then, maybe you shouldn't. He was stating his opinion in a manner that's no more forceful than most of your own posts. You can't start provocative threads or make bold statements in posts and then get all defensive when someone disagrees with you strongly. That's just childish and annoying.

    I'm just saying that your tone often makes it impossible to take the content of your posts seriously, which is a shame, becuase otherwise your opinions should be just as valid as anyone else's. No offense, just an FYI. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
    Well, Uncle Buck knows me here, and I have rarely gotten hostile with him. You'll notice the question was directed at him, not Hicks or whoever else answered. You'll also notice that I did not start this thread. Buck did. I simply asked him a question, and some people decided to comment on it in a snide way. A lot of people dislike me because of my opinions, not my tone. I say Isiah was a good coach," and the responses I get are as if I called someone's mother "A big fat ho." It's got nothing to do with tone, and everything to do with my opinions. Most people here disagree with them. Fine. I care. ed:

    I don't feel my tone towards Buck was offensive, but Hick's tone towards me was. Thus, the response. I respect Hicks and his cool forum. However, if folks want to make those kinds of comments to my question, they can expect an equally forceful response.

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    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    When I get answers like this: "That is so exaggerated............ ugh," it perfectly honest questions, I tend to get a little hostile.
    I don't feel my tone towards Buck was offensive, but Hick's tone towards

    Well, then, maybe you shouldn't. He was stating his opinion in a manner that's no more forceful than most of your own posts. You can't start provocative threads or make bold statements in posts and then get all defensive when someone disagrees with you strongly. That's just childish and annoying.

    I'm just saying that your tone often makes it impossible to take the content of your posts seriously, which is a shame, becuase otherwise your opinions should be just as valid as anyone else's. No offense, just an FYI. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
    Well, Uncle Buck knows me here, and I have rarely gotten hostile with him. You'll notice the question was directed at him, not Hicks or whoever else answered. You'll also notice that I did not start this thread. Buck did. I simply asked him a question, and some people decided to comment on it in a snide way. A lot of people dislike me because of my opinions, not my tone. I say Isiah was a good coach," and the responses I get are as if I called someone's mother "A big fat ho." It's got nothing to do with tone, and everything to do with my opinions. Most people here disagree with them. Fine. I care. ed:
    me was. Thus, the response. I respect Hicks and his cool forum. However, if folks want to make those kinds of comments to my question, they can expect an equally forceful response.
    whatever. ed:

  24. #24
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    I hate to go back a discuss history like this, but since you asked me.

    The only player who was upset about Isiah being fired was J.O.

    As far as Rick is D-town, Chucky was critical in the media, and some of the other players I would say were lukewarm about Rick.


    Let me say this because I don't know if I ever have, at least not here. Rick is not a warm outgoing guy. My sense is if you ask the Pacers current players who they would rather have a friendly lunch with, Rick or Isiah, most would pick Isiah, taking away the current and former coach type things.

    I have had bosses who I did not like personally, but they were damn good bosses and in the workplace they got my full respect. There were other bosses I was "friends" with, I liked them personally, but I they were not good at their job.

    I think Isiah is the boss you liked but did not respect. Carlisle is the boss you don't like but respect a lot.


    I realize I am simplifing things, but my point stands.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Carlisle proves Artest is defensive player of the year

    Rick will talk this up. While he was coach of the Pistons, he worked the phone to help get awards for his players. Players appreciate that.
    How then do you explain the Detroit players that seemed somewhat relieved that Carlisle was fired? You'll remember that NOT ONE player voiced disapproval when Carlisle got the boot, but here in Indy there was nearly a mutiny when Thomas got canned (JO, Ron, Al-- all pissed).
    Well, I suppose others have answered it, but I do know that he tried hard, especially that first year, to get Ben the DPOTY award. Maybe they liked it at the time? I don't know. But yes, it was obvious they weren't all gung-ho about him late in the second year. It may be that they didn't like him all that much, but maybe Rick liked them? I don't recall Rick ever hating his team. Maybe I just forgot, though...
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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