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Thread: Pacers' failure to communicate......

  1. #1
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Pacers' failure to communicate......

    It seems once again, that Tinsley's play was explained easily.

    Some of us were wondering why he was so up and down, and though some of the grassy knoll people here are sure that Tins was pouting and not simply sick, like Fred Jones before him. This time Rick said on his show that Tins got a groin injury since the Cavs game and should not have played.

    Now we all know, though hardly every ackowledge, how much of a warrior Tins is when it comes to playing with pain, I remember to well and vividly the playoff series against Detroit where he was riding a bike when not on the court to keep his muscles warm and his knee mobile.

    This is another example in my opinion of the poor communicative skills of the Pacers, despite all the modern possibilites at their disposal and the great website they have (which is kept better uptodate and has more interesting stuff then most sites out there)

    They do however the players and the fans a disservice by not simply reporting these injuries, no matter how small, list a player as probable but hurting, do I care how they announce it, but at least it will change our view of the player in question.
    Now we come out in force to rip 'm a new one, and propose the most silly trades because (fillinwhateveryouwanttocomeupwithhere)

    I agree that certain things are privy to the team only, but information like this which creates perception of the team and the circumstances they work under is important enough to be relayed to a fanbase, no matter how small.

    Other examples of plainly poor communications on these matters are:

    Foster's injuries
    Bender injuries
    Tinsley injuries
    JO injuries
    Ron injuries

    I can probably make this list a page long, but what it boils down to is my advice to the Pacers: improve communications on injuries, small or big.
    We would like to know what is wrong without details that would create legal difficulties, this can be done, other teams seems to succeed at it, why not we?

    How important is this?

    Ok let's take the example of the last occassion, i.e. now with Tinsley.

    Can you tell me you would have been as harsh on him as some were/are knowing he is playing with an injury?
    Can you tell me your conclusion (if you reached that one) that either we get rid of him or the conclusion that Saras will take his spot (other then through injury and temp) would be less easily made if you knew that Rick obviously wants him on the floor so bad that he is asked to play with an injury?
    Don't those things all tell a story? Therefore is it important Pacers are more open.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Now that i was not harsh on Tinsley, i feel free to discuss this. The things told in a RC show didn't explained me that happened at all (some of it i put in other thread, but i think this is more relevant):

    1) What Carlisle is thinking about during game!?
    1.1) First - it hurts Tinsley twice as he must be very upset after such a play.
    1.2) It hurts also a team - knowing that You are losing without one of the key players is not as hard as playing knowing (and seeing) that You can't trust him, coz he is injured.
    2) How You can play an injured player at all? (are these games as important?)
    3) Why Rick wants him on the floor so bad that he is asked to play with an injury seeing that he's an absolute minus? And why Rick allows JT to have a horrible game if he's his favorite player?

    Maybe Carlisle just taking blame on himself... but imho Carlisle just didn't figured it out yet, how to use the strong sides of our PG's and he's making mistakes either way.

  3. #3
    Member Harddrive7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Hey Able,

    Why don't you ask Mark Boyle why they don't do this? I think it's a very valid complaint myself that Mark very well may have the inside scoop.

  4. #4
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Tinsley is far from the ultimate team player. No amount of injury reports is ever going to change that. Only Tinsley can change that.

    -Bball
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    Member Harddrive7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Tinsley is far from the ultimate team player. No amount of injury reports is ever going to change that. Only Tinsley can change that.

    -Bball

    That's a scary thing to say about a starting pg. You would kinda want your pg to be a team player, when...errrrr...running a TEAM.


    Start Saras

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Seems to me that Tinsley cannot go more than 5 games in a row without either being sick or suffering an injury to his legs, ankles, or feet. I don't care how tough he is, I don't doubt that he is sick or that he is injured. I'm not going to question that.

    My problem is that he cannot go 5 games straight without being injured or sick.

    Isn't that a major problem for a starting point guard. I've said it before and I say it again, point guard is the most important position on any NBA team, especially if you don't have a great creating wing player (Jordan) to do some of the point guard duties.

    His tendency to get injured will only get worse has he gets older.

  7. #7
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Seems to me that Tinsley cannot go more than 5 games in a row without either being sick or suffering an injury to his legs, ankles, or feet. I don't care how tough he is, I don't doubt that he is sick or that he is injured. I'm not going to question that.

    My problem is that he cannot go 5 games straight without being injured or sick.

    Isn't that a major problem for a starting point guard. I've said it before and I say it again, point guard is the most important position on any NBA team, especially if you don't have a great creating wing player (Jordan) to do some of the point guard duties.

    His tendency to get injured will only get worse has he gets older.
    I have to admit, Able's use of the word "warrior" isn't the word or phrase that comes to mind when I think of Tinsley. "Injured or sick" was closer....

    I agree with Able's premise that we don't always get enough info about player injuries tho. I don't expect the full medical report, medication chart, X-rays, etc BUT it would be nice to get the actual injury told to us up front (and all aspects of it). If someone has a broken or torn 'something' then don't tell us it is a bruise. If someone is recovering from surgery don't leave out any new problems that have arisen in rehab. If the projected return is days, weeks, or months away then don't tell us a scenario that they know is most likely not going to be met... not even close.

    Read this thread from an article I posted in 2003 with Bender's inury report and surgery and what we were told:
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16386
    Not even close....

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    I think we are also overlooking something.

    Keeping a bunch of guys on a basketball forum "informed" is probably the furthest thing from the Pacers minds when they have a player who has suddenly become sick or injured.

    And the opinions that we have regarding the players, whether healthy, sick or injured, is probably has less influence on the team than Bren Simon's dogs. Keeping that in mind, is it all that important to the Pacer brass that they keep us informed, or the general public for that matter.

  9. #9
    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Another thought, is maybe they didn't want Phoenix to know Tinsley wasn't up to par so they wouldn't plan their game around it.

    And, if Tinsley is injured, do you think he's playing to make sure Cabbage doesn't get a chance at that starting position? I'm sure he remembers what happened with Kenny Anderson.

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    I think we are also overlooking something.

    Keeping a bunch of guys on a basketball forum "informed" is probably the furthest thing from the Pacers minds when they have a player who has suddenly become sick or injured.

    And the opinions that we have regarding the players, whether healthy, sick or injured, is probably has less influence on the team than Bren Simon's dogs. Keeping that in mind, is it all that important to the Pacer brass that they keep us informed, or the general public for that matter.

    That's the very first thing I thought when I read this post. Sure it would be nice to know before the game that a player is hurting but honestly I feel like Larry Bird felt when he was the Head Coach:

    (paraphrasing)"If you're too hurt to play good, you shouldn't play at all."

    I remember Bird making a comment like that when he was told that Reggie kinda used his ankle injury as an excuse after the Pacers were blown out in Game 5 of the ECF against Chicago.

    IMO, Rick did a terrible coaching job against Phoenix... and that's the first time I've ever bashed Rick for anything. I haven't lost confidence in him but I'm just calling it as I see it regarding the Phoenix game.
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyron
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    And, if Tinsley is injured, do you think he's playing to make sure Cabbage doesn't get a chance at that starting position? I'm sure he remembers what happened with Kenny Anderson.
    Makes sense to me.
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    Keeping a bunch of guys on a basketball forum "informed" is probably the furthest thing from the Pacers minds when they have a player who has suddenly become sick or injured.
    I think it's reasonable to let the entire fanbase (not just we internet folk) the status of the players we invest time and money in to see and support.

  13. #13
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Teams have to be careful with what medical information they make public. There are legal issues involved here. About 4 years ago laws were changed or new laws were enacted that made the relaesing of medical info even more restrictive.

    So they cannot come out in the media with full disclosure

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Teams have to be careful with what medical information they make public. There are legal issues involved here. About 4 years ago laws were changed or new laws were enacted that made the relaesing of medical info even more restrictive.

    So they cannot come out in the media with full disclosure
    I don't need details, just a specific enough answer that if I go to a medical website to research I can pretty accurately predict the time the player will be out. Meaning I want to hear "moderate knee sprain" not "he hurt his knee". I don't want or need more than that.

    Or at the very least, if the have to keep it extremely simple, at least give an accurate timeframe. Indiana press is horrible at this. According to them Jeff went from healthy, to out for the preseason, to out until Thanksgiving, to sometime in December. 4th time's the charm I guess. Bender's another horrible case.

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Or at the very least, if the(y) have to keep it extremely simple, at least give an accurate timeframe. Indiana press is horrible at this. According to them Jeff went from healthy, to out for the preseason, to out until Thanksgiving, to sometime in December. 4th time's the charm I guess. Bender's another horrible case.
    That's all I'd ask. Something realistic about the severity of the injury (doesn't have to be detailed) with an accurate timeframe as best they understand it (or give us worst case/best case scenarios). Foster's condition this season is a perfect example of what I am talking about (as an example of a reporting problem) and you laid it out well.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    . . . Rick obviously wants him on the floor so bad that he is asked to play with an injury?
    How do you know he was asked to play with an injury? I think it more likely he is afraid of losing his starting role.

  17. #17
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure to communicate......

    1: this discussion was not about Tinsley he was used as an example, I could've used Bender, but the jokes are getting old.

    2: The thought alone that Tins would be afraid of his starting role and "forced" Rick to play him is saying that Rick plays a player who says he's healthy, now there are two conclusions possible from that statement, 1: Rick has no fait hin his med staff and takes risks for which he can be sued till hell freezes over by the player in question AND PS&E, or 2: Rick is so stupid he should not be a coach if he let's the player decide who plays.
    Now I am pretty sure that in all the petty hatred that fact was forgotten, but please next time you make statements, think them through, I am getting fed up with these kind of discussions that are not what the topic covers or what the thread intended, and if you can find anything in the thread that suggests that I wanted to discuss Tins playing against Phx then you need a course in comprehensive reading.

    Now back on topic:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by beast23
    I think we are also overlooking something.

    Keeping a bunch of guys on a basketball forum "informed" is probably the furthest thing from the Pacers minds when they have a player who has suddenly become sick or injured.

    And the opinions that we have regarding the players, whether healthy, sick or injured, is probably has less influence on the team than Bren Simon's dogs. Keeping that in mind, is it all that important to the Pacer brass that they keep us informed, or the general public for that matter.
    It is not about the "internet-forums" that this question is raised, what has happened over the past 15 years is the development of a medium beyond television and radio and print-press.
    This medium does not consists only of forae as we have here, but it also contains sites like MSN and Yahoo and many others that only exist on this medium.
    That same medium had brought the Pacers and the NBA in general a large amount of attention and added sales in merchandise.
    It has also opened up betting across the world on NBA games and all that comes with it, it is not only in our interest, but in the interest of all those people that such information is known. I have a strong case to say that my bet is invalid because available knowledge influencing my bet was witheld from me and the odds where therefor not an accurate representation of the riks/bet involved.

    That is just part of legal cases one can make, but in practise it is also and perhaps even moreso a PR case, let's face it, presentations like that game are not a real PR winner, henceforth knowing what you can expect (UB posted a nice Montieth artcile today at least I believe it was UB) could be a far better sale.

    It will also boost or at least control saled of merchandise if the reason for a sub-par game is known, it will throw less people off, less articles in the press raping the playing in question, instead you have an opportunity to present a (semi-)hero.

    THAT is what this thread is about, there are 4 or 5 "Tinsly is (fillinttheblanks) please let this one talk about the above or die a peaceful dead.
    Thank you.
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