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Thread: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Yes, this is really me, and yes, I'm completely sober.

    The key question that has haunted the Pacers and its fans the past few seasons has remained the same. Would the Pacers team be better off without Artest, without the distractions, without the drama, and without his play that often strays from team ball. We all know the Pacers cannot get fair value for Ron, there is no use discussing that. Pacers likely will be able to get a role player for Ron, maybe a role-playing big guy. But maybe that is all they need now. So the questions haven't really changed, but the Pacers team situation has changed.

    Things have changed, new players have been brought in and the Pacers drafted a rookie who seems like he'll be the real thing. Granger in another season or two will be good enough to man the small forward position and good enough to help the Pacers win a championship.

    Saras has also been brought in to bolster the backcourt. Bender appears ready to contribute. The truth is the Pacers are loaded at the point guard, shooting guard and small forward positions. Jax can slide over and play the small forward, which would allow Fred, Saras and AJ to get more time. So maybe the Pacers would be better of trading Ron for a big guy (non-all-star for sure, but someone who can help us there).

    I've argued for two seasons that the Pacers could not win a championship without Artest, and I've also argued that if the Pacers did trade Ronnie the Pacers would have to make some other significant changes in order to get back up to championship level. But does that argument still hold ? If Granger is as good as it appears, he needs to play 25 plus minutes per game. (sometimes rookies are too good to keep on the bench) So maybe the Pacers would not have to make other significant changes, so maybe if the Pacers make a smart trade of Artest the Pacers as they are currently constructed (minus Artest) can win a championship.

    If the Pacers can trade Artest (yes my keyboard is about to explode) for a role playing big guy - How good would they be. The team would be more stable, so on and so forth, you know all the arguments in favor of trading Ronnie. You also know all the arguments in favor of keeping Ronnie.

    Of course the logical thing to suggest is why not wait (to trade Artest) maybe until February or next summer, let Ron play this season in a Pacers uniform, hopefully his trade value will be a little higher in 10 months and next season Granger will be better and ready to be the starting small forward. Sounds like a logical plan, but maybe Carlisle is sick of dealing with Ron, maybe his teammates are just sick of Ronnie's act.

    We all have to realize how unusual it is for Rick to call players out in the media. Maybe Ron's play during training camp has not been team oriented. Maybe Pacers management and coaching staff now realizes that they are finally ready to move on without Ron and that the team has enough other good players to be better without him. Maybe playing almost a full season without Artest proved to the players, coaches and management that the team runs much more smoothly without Ron's antics.

    In addition to all this, I'm very concerned about Jeff Foster's health right now, he does not seem to be healing, shouldn't he be recovered by from his second hip surgery. I suspect that Foster will be injured for much of the season or at best he won't be 100% all season long. We all know Pollard is only a spot player at this point in his career due to his back, if he has to play 10-15 minutes per game he'll need a month off by the time Thanksgiving comes around. And I don't think David Harrison is ready to be the Pacers center this season. So the Pacers need help at the center position.

    What type of center could the Pacers get for Ron ? Certainly not an allstar. I'm thinking more in the Jerome James or Adonal Foyle level of center. Someone who could help us with the Heat or the Pistons in the playoffs. Someone who can play 25 minutes per game at the center position. NBA history is filled with teams that have traded away a very good player because they have a rookie who is ready to fill the void.

    Some of you are probably in shock; some of you probably think I'm being sarcastic. Well I'm not. What I'm doing is trying to take all my emotions out of it. Keep in mind I have not seen Ron play basketball in about 11 months, and I know once I do see him again all logic will go out the window, I'll realize how much I love him, and how much we need him, but right now I'm trying to look at the Pacers in a cold sober sort of way.

  2. #2
    Member McClintic Sphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I'll take Bird at his word that no one is untradable, including Ron and that anything perceived as improving the team will be done. I'm certain the Pacer's have had feelers out for possible trades all along, but haven't seen anything that they thought worked, or this would have already been done. The Granger factor is certainly a big one when it comes to Ron's value to the team, but remember many teams questioned his health before the draft and we don't know how reliable he will be for 82 games. One thing we have never had to question about Ron is his durability or willingness to play through pain. I remember when he was first traded here and had either a foot or ankle injury and Ron Mercer had to tell Isiah that he would have to take Ron out because he simply would not take himself off the floor. I think this is an issue that the Pacer's can be patient on. Now is not the time to make a trade. I see the Pacer's as being a more mature team that has weathered an enormous storm last year and won't be rattled by controversy very easily. Ergo, Ron will be called out and have his feet held to the fire when he acts out. The Pacer's are not going for playoff position. They want to win it all and will can afford to see how things play out before the trade deadline before acting. That will also put them in a stronger position to trade from as many teams will be out of contention and the P's will know what they have in Bender and Granger, not to mention how strong the other options at 2 are besides Jax, allowing him to be another option at 3 if Ron has to be taken to Bellevue.

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Great post. I believe Ron is becoming more expendable, especially with Granger here.

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I really don't know if the Pacers need Artest or not. That's a very discomforting thing, not knowing if your favorite team is better with or without one of their All-Stars.

    The thing that makes me the angriest is that I really believe the Pacers could've received a decent player last year for Artest. Baron Davis was had for next to nothing, imagine what the Pacers might've done with Bditty in the lineup during the playoffs. Antoine Walker - warts and all - might've been enough to get us past the Pistons last year.

    Now the Pacers will have to settle for a Jerome James type player. Ugh. If they could get Adonal Foyle and Mike Dunleavy for Ron and Pollard (I don't know if the salaries match) - that'd be a major coup considering Artest's act this week.

    I fully expect the Pacers to hold out in hopes that Ron gets it together. Hopefully, he'll improve during the preseason to the point that his stock rises. I've just about given up hope that he won't mess up again.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I thought two things from the moment you slected Granger.

    1. LUCKY *******S!!!!
    2. He's the perfect contingency plan for Ron. I wouldn't want to lay this much on a rookie but he COULD be as good as Ron one day - better offensively and very good (though predicting anyone to be as good as Ron here is foolish) on defense. But if Ron was to blow up - or the brain trust just decides they can't live with him any more, who better to step into his shoes? Other than maybe Joey Graham who I had rated one spot ahead of Granger.

    There were players out there who were quality guys when you picked who really could have helped fill some needs. Personally, if Wayne Simien gets past his shoulder problems, I look for him to be a 20-10 guy in the NBA year after year - the man's a beast. And if you can depend on Ron your need for a physical post player far outweighs your need for another swingman.

    Just looked at the draft again and I gotta say, when I look at picks 7-14 I can't help wondering what those GM's were thinking.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  6. #6
    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Thoughts:

    a) One preseason game does not a rookie phenomenon make

    b) One preseason game does not a Bender-breakout make

    c) We won't trade Ron for peanuts. If we had, we would have done it last year. We will either wait until he self destructs (and hope he doesn't take the team with him again) and cut him. Or we'll let him play and get his value up.


    But yes, given what's going lately, Ron seems as crazy and distruptive as ever. Maybe things are different "on the inside" of the team, but it doesn't seem that way from out here.
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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Dumb idea. Wait until the season starts. You think ronnie was taking that preseason game seriously, DOUBT IT.

    I don't think the pacers have a chance of even making it to the ECF this year without another big man.

    Dumbest thing we did was let Dale go. Our time to win a championship is NOW, and why the hell did we need a point guard. AJ is the best backup in the game!

    We have NO big guys worth **** basically. And i'm furious.

    We need to try to trade Sarunas or AJ or fred for a big guy like Udonis Haslem (someone like him, he is basically the modern day dale davis)

    I was against signing Sarunas when it happened and I still am. WE NEED BIG GUYS SO LETS GO GET SOME POINT GUARD.

    But whatever, I have a feeling Tinsley will be traded for a solid big guy. If we sign Jimmie Hunter you can almost BET on it. A lot of teams would LOVE to have a guy like Tinsley i'm sure

    Or maybe, we just let Bender create some "potential" talk and ship him out for a "'REAL" big guy.

    One way or another, that big trade that everyone was talking about...needs to happen before this team can be a serious contender.

    Croshere and Pollard are our big guys right now, laughable.

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk.

    First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up. Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.

    But Doug is totally correct. Let's not get warm and wiggly just because Bender looked decent in one preseason game and Granger is "supposedly" the next coming of Christ.

    Let's see some consistency and some health issues resolved first.

  9. #9
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Rather than start a new thread I'll add to this one ...

    With the statements and play in the preseason game, I think Ron dropped his trade value to a bag of peanuts and a beer. With Carlisle calling him out, I think the stage has been set for the Pacers to be able to accept that for him.

    That being said, we've had "this is Bender's breakout year" before. We've had plenty of "if healthy" players before. As in the past, if all of these blow up in our faces, we'll be in trouble (again). Therefore, there isn't any reason to dump Artest right away.

    I would expect that no move will be made for Artest until well into the season. I suspect that he will make a steady progression from starter onto the bench and down toward the end of it should he continue to be a problem. With his current salary, benching him is not a horrible thought, and playing him is not going to increase his trade value.

    I also think that after their play during the suspension, the team is able to handle Ronnie psychologically - they will be able to concentrate on their own play rather than his disruptions, as long as Carlisle shows willing to take him out and sit him down when his play affects the play of others. The press call-out would have reinforced their confidence that he will do this.

    What we lack this year, as UB pointed out, is a desperate sense that without Ron we are also-rans. So far, the only one who doesn't realize this seems to be Ron.

    Bottom line is that I expect Ron to either control himself or become a role player. If he drops to DNP-CD status, that beer will taste pretty good in February as long as everyone else is stepping up.

    How do I differ from those who have advocated trading him in the past? Because I believe that he can still contribute to the team should he choose to and I don't agree that we have lost opportunitites by not dumping him for a used lottery ticket in previous seasons.

    Now, pardon me while I get my Ron-Ron Fan Club card out of my wallet before it explodes
    BillS

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  10. #10
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    My god... UB's become a hater. And a gummy hater at that. Oh, and Ron's an idiot. There, I said it...again.

  11. #11
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    Exclamation Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I agree that we need another big man, but I wouldn't bet my future, or a quest for an NBA title, on a rookie and Benders knees. Bring them both, Granger and Benders knees, along slowly until the trading deadline. By then you will know if both are for real or not and know how our season is going. If both are doing well and the season well, but not up to what we all expected, make a trade. Otherwise bring Granger along for the season to get the needed experience and pull the trade in the off season. That way we get a shot at a title, bring the rookie along slowly and if Artest gets through the season with no major flairups, his trade value goes up and makes more sense.

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Sounds like we need to revisit the Ronnie coming off the bench thread again. Is Rick really trying to set this up? Shoot that's the way they do it around here.
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I've lost all respect for you, UB....

    ...I cry as the hater club increases and the RA FAN CLUB goes down.


    I still say we should have him here. Off the bench would be fine. But I still think he's needed. Granger hasn't even played in an NBA game. How do you know he's going to do spectacularly? He may turn out to be just an average player, in which case we won't win anything.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I disagree strongly that we can't/won't get quality in return for Ron. That was valid LAST year, when he was SUSPENDED and couldn't play for anybody. NOW, he's back playing and he's an all star caliber player. There was a market for Sprewell and lots of other "problem" players in the past and there's a market for Ron now. Plenty of teams desperate for a scorer or fan attraction, etc will roll the dice on the chance to come up big with him.
    I think it's wise to give it some time and see what happens unless of course Rick/Larry have had it with his crap.
    If so, I fully expect to get a GOOD player in return.

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    I've lost all respect for you, UB....

    ...I cry as the hater club increases and the RA FAN CLUB goes down.


    I still say we should have him here. Off the bench would be fine. But I still think he's needed. Granger hasn't even played in an NBA game. How do you know he's going to do spectacularly? He may turn out to be just an average player, in which case we won't win anything.

    An average player would contribute more than Mr. Artest did last year.
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan
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    If so, I fully expect to get a GOOD player in return.

    Get out the hammer and nails....cause I'm gonna get crucified for this.

    To Atlanta for picks (instant LT cap relief of about 6 mil)
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    What picks?

    They don't have any left after they morgaged the team and fired an owner just to get a 6'7 PG who's never played the position for any decent amount of time.

    Sorry....I was using them as an example of the type team to look for. In deep trouble....so deep Ron wouldn't be enough to help them win. And a team with cap room to do that kind of deal.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    An average player would contribute more than Mr. Artest did last year.

    An average player isn't enough to get us over the top. I shudder to think what would happen if JO was the main scoring option and played like the end of last year....
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  19. #19
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk. First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up.
    Nope, his trade value can go down....and keeping Ron around for any period of time is a risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.
    He could blow up late in the year and that suspension would disrupt the team. This would also reduce his trade value further. ...and a blow up could get him banned from the league....with 0 trade value.

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    But Doug is totally correct. Let's not get warm and wiggly just because Bender looked decent in one preseason game and Granger is "supposedly" the next coming of Christ.Let's see some consistency and some health issues resolved first.
    Good point, unfortunately. ...but if the Pacers become comfortable that Granger and Bender are likely to stay healthy and meet expectations, they would be fools not to trade Artest. Admittedly, that is a big IF. ...but I am not saying to give him away. I think we would benefit more by trading him to get another decent center....one that can score and defend big guys on Detroit and Miami.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk.

    First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up. Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.

    But Doug is totally correct. Let's not get warm and wiggly just because Bender looked decent in one preseason game and Granger is "supposedly" the next coming of Christ.

    Let's see some consistency and some health issues resolved first.
    Right on!

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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold
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    Nope, his trade value can go down....and keeping Ron around for any period of time is a risk.
    Unfortunately, this part is true...
    Not only could he suffer an injury putting his career into question we also know he isn't immune to a league imposed suspension and likely on a short leash anyway. So yes, his value could go down.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I'm not convinced we need Ron, but that doesn't mean I think we should get rid of him either. Besides, who in his right mind would trade for him? The Zen Master is the only one I can think of who is that arrogant and stupid enough to think he can fix Ron's brain.

  23. #23
    Member Frank Slade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore



    The Pacers Can Win a championship without Artest !!!!!!.


    Why Not Us ?


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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Slade
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    The Pacers Can Win a championship without Artest !!!!!!.

    I certainly like that better than that stupid "United, One Goal" thing.

  25. #25
    Get well soon PG! Believe_in_blue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore

    I would kind of compare Ron to Randy Moss. He was a distraction to the Vikings so they traded him. Now their offense and their team is struggling big time. We absolutly have to give Ron at least a couple months into the season before we can even think about trading him. Ron is as giant "if" as far as what your going to get out of him during a game, but the replacments we have for him is also an "if". He was an MVP type player before the brawl, lets see if he can get back to that before we offically write him off.

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