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Thread: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

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    Default Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    There is no doubt in my mind that Michael Jordan was the most talented individual to ever play in the NBA, there's no contest. MJ was a superstar, a monster, a hero, a living miracle, a model for how the game should be played.

    I just wanted to establish that before I say this, something which I am aware I have said before.

    This sudden outburst is prompted by the Reggie statue Thread, but I didn't want to hijack that so here goes:


    Without the great teams that surrounded Michael Jordan, he would have never won all his championships, it's a TEAM Sport. No one individual can win games, they can aid, but they can't win over seventy games in a season by themselves. I think that this is very evident in Jordans first 5/6 seasons with the Bulls.

    I will go in a slight compromise and say that with the exception of Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, and Ron Harper ( at times), none of the others would be of super star caliber or shine as bright without Jordan, but on the other hand MJ wouldn't have shined as bright without them either.

    My point is, and I in no way mean disrespect to Rik Smits, Mark Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, Byron Scott, Chuck Person, or any others, but if Reggie was on the bulls those years, he would have had a championship.
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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    a championship MAYBE, but not 6. I don't even think he would, because neither Reggie nor Pippen are fit for the role of top dog.

    Reggie isn't in Jordan's class. It's unfair to both players to compare them.

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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    a championship MAYBE, but not 6. I don't even think he would, because neither Reggie nor Pippen are fit for the role of top dog.

    Reggie isn't in Jordan's class. It's unfair to both players to compare them.

    If Reggie had one more player who was aggressive on offense while playing defense, Pacers would have 2-3 championships in the runs made. (this along with Rik Smits). We had Mckey in the early runs who played defense but no offense. We had Jalen who played offense but no defense. (he was never a team guy, forget defense).

    Jalen + Mckey = Artest (without running into the stands)

    MJ would not win those championships without all those players but Reggie would not win with all those players.

    Reggie and the Pacers were an unique combination because players like Reggie succeed only on conventional basketball teams (point guard, SG, SF,PF and Center) which count on the team concept. Reggie would not have that much success with teams like the Bulls.

    In those Chicago teams, there was no true point guard, no legitmate center. Just an athletic team which rebounded and played defense to go along with MJ's will and talent.

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    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by 8.9_seconds
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    My point is, and I in no way mean disrespect to Rik Smits, Mark Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, Byron Scott, Chuck Person, or any others, but if Reggie was on the bulls those years, he would have had a championship.
    Nope. No way. Wouldn't have happened. Pippen and Rodman were huge for the Bulls, but then we had McKey and the Davis' doing the same thing. Jordan won because, IMHO, he altered his game from a ballhogging hotdog to a team player. Once he did that, the titles started coming. Jordan NEVER had a great team. He had two great co-horts. Thing is, Jordan was a LEADER. He chewed out his teammates as much as the coaches ever did. They talk about that cliche, will to win, but it held true in his case.

    (I hate to say it, but Kobe showed the same thing against us in the finals. You just say he wasn't going to allow them to lose. He took those late three pointers from waaayy behind the arc and nailed them, followed up by drives where he dared us to stop him...and we couldn't.)

    The trio of Rodman/Pippen and jordan worked because Jordan was able to do as he wanted in the offense, Pippen directed things and Rodman pretty much just had to stay out of the way and grab missed shots.

    I'm confident Reggie's basically one dimensional game wouldn't have fit the Bulls. Jordan didn't need screen to get his shot and his defense was tops in the league, let alone he was able to penetrate, all things Reggie didn't do to the point of being one of the best in the league at it.
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Well, the bulls were so dynamic because Jordan and Pippen were hall of famers on BOTH ends of the floor. They could win games any way they wanted to. That's where reggie loses out in this discussion, I think. You don't leave reggie on another all-pro SG and not worry about it for the rest of the game.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    IMO, the only player you can argue that with would be Len Bias, since all the Boston fans say he would have been MJ's nemesis if he'd lived, and since he didn't, there's no way to disprove it.

    Phil Jackson wouldn't have known the first thing to do with Reggie.
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    IMO, the only player you can argue that with would be Len Bias, since all the Boston fans say he would have been MJ's nemesis if he'd lived
    Who was he, and why did he die?

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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    He was the #2 overall pick in 1986, and he died of a coke overdose that night.

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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    He was the #2 overall pick in 1986, and he died of a coke overdose that night.
    That was the year I was born, no wonder I don't remember him.

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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    I'm sorry but if you switch Reggie and Jordan the Bulls win no titles and the Pacers win multiple titles. Without Jordan those Bulls teams were mediocre.
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    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    I'm not even sure Pippen would be regarded as highly if it wasn't for the fact he shared the court with Jordan for much of his career. Jordan made the players around him better. He also had this ability to bring his "A" game nearly every time he took the court. That is something that cannot be said about Reggie.

    Also... Jordan was able to do much more than score and when his shot wasn't falling he could take up the slack elsewhere. Again, not a forte of Reggie.

    All that said... there's a lot of hype that goes into Jordan's legacy but for those that would say he and Reggie were equals or interchangable... that's over the top.

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    Member Frank Slade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    I am not aware of anyone who is indicating Reggie and Jordan are near equals?

    Only observation I would make is the longer Jordan is away from the game
    the greater his "Legend Grows"

    Yet Reggie has not even been retired a full offseason and people already have him as a mediocre shooting guard with no defense.. funny how that works sometimes.... oh well

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Slade
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    I am not aware of anyone who is indicating Reggie and Jordan are near equals?

    Only observation I would make is the longer Jordan is away from the game
    the greater his "Legend Grows"

    Yet Reggie has not even been retired a full offseason and people already have him as a mediocre shooting guard with no defense.. funny how that works sometimes.... oh well
    8.9 started this discussion saying put Reggie on the Bulls teams and he would've had a championship. I assumed that meant 'swapping' Reggie and Jordan and not Reggie playing on the same team as Jordan.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Jordan was the greatest defensive SG of all time. Putting almost ANYONE in Jordan's class would make them look mediocre in comparison.

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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Jordan was the greatest defensive SG of all time. Putting almost ANYONE in Jordan's class would make them look mediocre in comparison.
    No question there as long as people have the proper perspective of things. There is no need to down play Reggie's accomplishments to prove anything.

    If Jordan is the GOAT , then his accomplishments should stand alone.

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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Slade
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    No question there as long as people have the proper perspective of things. There is no need to down play Reggie's accomplishments to prove anything.

    If Jordan is the GOAT , then his accomplishments should stand alone.
    Agreed.

    If you don't want to play down Reggie, then don't compare him to Jordan. It's that simple.

    You don't put the lightweight champ in the ring with a heavyweight, it's not fair.

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking off the Shades and taking a real look at MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Jordan was the greatest defensive SG of all time. Putting almost ANYONE in Jordan's class would make them look mediocre in comparison.

    I disagree. Sidney Moncrief was the greatest defensive SG ever. Jordan was good at getting steals but he wasn't the shutdown stopper that Moncrief was and Moncrief got his share of steals too.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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