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Thread: A confederate flag??

  1. #26
    sweabs
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    The States' rights issue stemmed from slavery, however.

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    So the Confederates were on the verge of sabotaging their economy on their own because of their conscience, but the mean old US government went and ruined it? Right.

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarey
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    The States' rights issue stemmed from slavery, however.
    Much more than slavery...

    Taken directly from Wikipedia...

    "The Confederate States Constitution provides much insight into the motivations for secession from the Union. Based to a certain extent on both the Articles of Confederation and on the United States Constitution, it reflected a stronger philosophy of states' rights, curtailing the power of the central authority, and also contained explicit protection of the institution of slavery, though international slave trading was prohibited. It differed from the US Constitution chiefly by addressing the grievances of the secessionist states against the federal government of the United States. For example, the Confederate government was prohibited from instituting protective tariffs, making southern ports more attractive to international traders. Prior to the declarations of secession, most southerners regarded protective tariffs as a measure that enriched the northern states at the expense of the south. The Confederate government was also prohibited from using revenues collected in one state for funding internal improvements in another state. At the same time, however, much of the Confederate constitution was a word-for-word duplicate of the US one."

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Back to topic,

    I don't like it when I see people waving the Confederate flag, because we know the history behind it, but I do not know that person's intentions.

    If the intentions are good, then it is okay with me.

    If the intentions are bad, then while I don't like it, it is still okay with me, and they are voicing their opinion.

    And no, I do not and have never flown a confederate flag. The closest thing that I have got to one is my Lynyrd Skynyrd shirt from a concert back in the 90's.

  5. #30
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder
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    Boom Baby!

    Yes, I do believe the south had taken a step in the right direction on their own, albeit a very small one, but very significant...

    The Confederate Constitution protected the institution of slavery, but prohibited slave trade internationally.

    As I said, a small step, but significant.
    "Yup. Don't need to bring in any more negras. We got enough. Let's pass something to stop the international trade. We'll just grow our own!"



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  6. #31
    IMPD Officer MarionDeputy's Avatar
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    I almost didn't hit the reply button on this one....I hope I can adequately express my thougts here. First off let me say I think people that fly the Confederate flag here in Indiana are absolute white racist trash. I am white, and my wife is black and I admit to being pretty sensitive to racist comments, which any long timer posters here should remember. Indiana was a northern state as earlier pointed out, so flying the flag here can only tie yourself to the negative connotations that have attached themselves to the Confederate flag.

    With that said you have to remeber that the Civl War like Skaut pointed out was not fought that long ago. In relative terms, my grand father is 84 years old making him born in 1921, the Civil war started in 1861 which was 60 years prior to my grand fathers birth which means my great grandfather most likely was alive during the Civil war, that makes me only 3 generations away from it. I know thats basic mathmatics, but when I think about it those terms it seems eerily close.

    You have to remember that the South was fighting to protect its way of life, obviously slavery is wrong but at that time it was socially acceptable in the South. I read an interesting article about the South where the authour stated that because during the 1800's the South had no deep water ports, most European transfer of culture occurred in the North because thats were the ships and trading partners conducted business. At that time the southern states mostly made their livings with farming. Most European countries outlawed slavery in the early 1800's so they were almost 60 years in front of us. I always found that to be an interesting hypothesis.

    Anyway, once the war got underway the southerners generaly felt that the North was restricting their way of life. But when the war ended you still had quite a bit of bitterness to the North and a sense of pride as to belonging to the Confederacy. These were true believers of their cause, right or wrong, most fought and lost family members to the war, and in that struggle, pride for the South was formed. Most of the north which culturally and econmically was way ahead of their southern countrymen, created an inferiority complex, and when the abolishinist movement was being forcefully fed into federal government, many Southerners felt that they were no longer being represented by the government. And individual representation of the people has always been a sensitive subject for Americans.

    Which is where I think most of the pride for the Confederacy comes from, most of the Southern states incorporated the Southern Cross into their State Flag. Hell South Carolina just in the last 10 years quit flying the Confederate flag underneath the American flag at their state capitol! Which leads back to how recent this war really occurred. I believe Mississippi still has not removed the Southern Cross from it's state flag.

    Unfortunately the Confederate flag became something more than just a symbol of Southern pride. It became the symbol for racisim. The KKK, adopted it as their flag in the late 60's when the civil rights movement was in full swing. In fact if you look at old pictures of Klan rallies ( a college proffessor of mine pointed this out to me), you rarely see the Confederate flag. Most of us remember watching the Dukes of Hazzard on TV, and although I was pretty young, I never remember hearing any negative rethoric about the flag displayed on the car each week. Feelings of discord came much later in the late 80's and 90's.

    In conclusion I think the Confederacy was an important part of our history, unfortunatly the symbol has been twisted into meaning something entirely different. And most likely when you see it being flown today the bearer usually uses "southern pride" as an excuse to cloak their true feelings of racisim.

    Also I challenge anyone to defend the statement that the Civil War was not fought over slavery. Those that point out that it was fought over "States-Rights" often forget that the states rights that the south was fighting for was the states right to allow slavery!!
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

  7. #32

    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Yes, the South had an inhumane pratice of slavery and that issue did play a role in why the Civil War was faught, however, I hate the smugness that comes across as history talks about going to war to free the slaves.

    The North fighting the war to free slaves had as much to do with slavery as the Iraqi War being faught to free the Iraqis--both good causes but neither the main reason for the wars. The North went to war because the South left.

    I believe a lot of the pride in the Confederacy comes from the resentment the South has about how the North shames them. Despite there being race riots in LA and Detriot so often the North says "Yeah, there are race problems in America--in the South" which there are but there are race problems in all 50 states. I honestly believe that the Bars and Stars would be laid to rest quicker if America admitted that it had a race problem in all 50 states.

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy
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    Also I challenge anyone to defend the statement that the Civil War was not fought over slavery. Those that point out that it was fought over "States-Rights" often forget that the states rights that the south was fighting for was the states right to allow slavery!!
    Look at the passage I posted from Wikipedia above. A couple of other main reasons why Civil War occured...

    Slavery was not the biggest issue!

    Arcadian has it right. Spot on.

    The only reason the North went to war was because the South had and was seceding into a Confederacy of States. I don't care how many times you hear it in revisionist history books. The main issue was not slavery.

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    "Yup. Don't need to bring in any more negras. We got enough. Let's pass something to stop the international trade. We'll just grow our own!"



    As I said, a step in the right direction, albeit a small, tiny, miniscule one...

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    Yes, the South had an inhumane pratice of slavery and that issue did play a role in why the Civil War was faught, however, I hate the smugness that comes across as history talks about going to war to free the slaves.

    The North fighting the war to free slaves had as much to do with slavery as the Iraqi War being faught to free the Iraqis--both good causes but neither the main reason for the wars. The North went to war because the South left.

    I believe a lot of the pride in the Confederacy comes from the resentment the South has about how the North shames them. Despite there being race riots in LA and Detriot so often the North says "Yeah, there are race problems in America--in the South" which there are but there are race problems in all 50 states. I honestly believe that the Bars and Stars would be laid to rest quicker if America admitted that it had a race problem in all 50 states.

    Good post.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    Yes, the South had an inhumane pratice of slavery and that issue did play a role in why the Civil War was faught, however, I hate the smugness that comes across as history talks about going to war to free the slaves.

    The North fighting the war to free slaves had as much to do with slavery as the Iraqi War being faught to free the Iraqis--both good causes but neither the main reason for the wars. The North went to war because the South left.

    I believe a lot of the pride in the Confederacy comes from the resentment the South has about how the North shames them. Despite there being race riots in LA and Detriot so often the North says "Yeah, there are race problems in America--in the South" which there are but there are race problems in all 50 states. I honestly believe that the Bars and Stars would be laid to rest quicker if America admitted that it had a race problem in all 50 states.
    I agree with that statement, good post. I am from Detroit originally and race relations there are still a sensitive subject. That part about embarassment is dead on thats what I was trying to get across in my post, you just said it a lot better and in about a third of many words!!!!
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

  12. #37
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    I don't know why people fly the confederate flag, but I spent part of a day in Gettysburg last week.

    Lee must've been crazy to send so many men across this field......

    Here's the monument that stands on the spot where Lincoln gave the Gettysburg address........
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  13. #38
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Found this quote from Lincoln, "The Great Emancipator", from his first debate with Douglas...from 1858....

    http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm

    "Now, gentlemen, I don't want to read at any greater length, but this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to the institution of slavery and the black race. This is the whole of it, and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro, is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse-chestnut to be a chestnut horse. [Laughter.] I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects-certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man. [Great applause.]"

    _________

    Lincoln's thoughts changed with public opinion. You'll find quotes about how he detests slavery, then you'll find quotes about how he should not, will not, and cannot do anything about slavery...

    Just some food for thought...

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    The second debate is also a good read.

    http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate2.htm

  16. #41
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Had a great conversation tonight with friends about the flag issue.

    One guy related the use of the confederate flag along the lines of the use of the skull and crossbones. He talked a lot about the history of the S&B, and how it was designed as a symbol of terror and crime but through time and temperment is now displayed with ease at amusement parks.

    That led to another friend talking about the use of pro sports team logos to proclaim gang affiliation. For a long time in LA, flying Raiders gear in the wrong neigborhood would have been asking to get shot at.

    But everyone in the conversation aknowledged that the meaning of symbols change easily. If Islamic extremists suddenly adopted the rainbow flag as thier symbol, you'd have to be a damn fool to show up at a gay pride parade with one and not know that it has a different meaning.

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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    I think what Arcadian was saying was spot on. There still exists racism in all 50 states. I know a lot of people, too many to count actually, that either fly the confederate flag or have a confederate flag sticker on their vehicle; and this is IN CALIFORNIA! They're not flying because of Southern pride, but because of their hate for black people. And if you ask them about it, they'll openly admit that fact, even with a sense of pride in their voices. It's absolutely sickening to me that people can have such a deep hatred, an abhorrance, for fellow members of the human race just because of the color of their skin. I look all around myself and I worry for the future of America.

  18. #43
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    When you grow up in Indiana and have to deal with different forms of racism on a weekly basis, seeing something like that makes me wish I was single again so I could date his daughter as the ultimate revenge.
    So you're saying you would date his daughter just to get revenge? Scott that sounds like using womem to me. Just pointing out we ALL have to recognize how easy it is to be hurtful. I also know you're just blowing off steam.

    Also everyone talks about the Klan in Indiana when in reality the most dangerous group is called World Church of the Creator. These sick @ssholes target colleges and high schools to recruit new members. While the Klan or Aryan movements pretty much spell out their hatred the WCOTC try the sneak approach by planting the seed minority students receive more favorable treatment compared to white students. It's sad but international terrorism is only part of what we REALLY have to worry about. Domestic groups or pieces of ***** like Tim McVeigh are far more plentiful.
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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    I just got back from 3 days in Tennessee where I saw the Stars and Bars aplenty. What I saw, heard, felt was that it was a rallying symbol for young, country music lovin, beer drinking, whatevers, that wanted to appear rebellious and anti-authority. I don't think they were thinking of blacks one way or another. For the most part they seemed to want to identify with an image of the tough ol' country boy, and in my opinion 99.9% would **** down their leg if anybody ever pointed a gun in their direction.
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  20. #45
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    skaut,
    My advice to you is do not go to Stone Mountain, GA where there is a huge granite memorial in tribute to the Southern leadership from the Civil War, akin to Mount Rushmore. It also features a museum detailing the history of that area during the civil war. Not to be flippant but I don't know how there is a good way to preserve that era of history and its symbols because of their varying representation to different people without offending some. I know that is totally different from your initial posting regarding someone from Indiana flying the confederate flag to represent some kind of redneck pride. In the South I think there is a legitimate pride in aspects of their civil war independence that has nothing to do with racism. But, your reaction is totally understandable.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: A confederate flag??

    I share the opinion that flying the confederate flag in Indiana seems rather absurd. That war was the most unique one in the history of our country, so its hold on us is unique indeed. The has been debate here about the con. flag being used at Robert E. Lee High School. One person wrote in that if people were going to complain about that, why were they not protesting the flag of the country that propogated more slavery than ours did outside of another high school here. That would be the Union Jack outside of Churchall High.

    As for the issue of slavery in the North, if it had been a fesiable economic option it probably would have been retained longer. The North just waited a little longer during the industrial revolution to take advantage of leagle immigrants in sweat shops. Not to mention those fine Chinamen that built those railroads out West.

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