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Thread: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

  1. #26
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Can you read, NewYawk?

    TWICE I said I was wrong in thinking you were alone in your opinion. What more do you want?



    Geesh. We badly need an "ignore" feature on this forum.
    I can read, Tom. The lines equating my opinions to UFO conspiracies was immature. And the fact that you thought I was alone in that opinion is a bit disturbing.
    Ever hear the saying, "If 10 people tell you you have a tail, sooner or later you have to turn around and take a look." Do you understand what it means?

    In other words, if you have 32 people here saying Isiah wasn't a good coach and only 8 who say he was, maybe it's time to reevaluate your opinion.

    Wait. Someone PM'd me last night and said you were incapable of that. In fact, I think they called you "The Wall."
    If 32 people told me to jump off a bridge...

    If 32 people told me to touch the third rail...

    If 32 people told me Isiah Thomas was a bad coach...

    And, let's say, half of those 32 voted Thomas "bad", but followed it up with: "In many ways, Thomas was doomed to fail, because he had a ridiculously redundant roster. He tried (and I believe this was his direction from Donnie) to get everyone playing time, but when your 13th man is as deserving of PT as your 7th man, establishing a consistent rotation just ain't going to happen." [Anthem]. Would that change your opinion?

    No.

    Clearly, you don't like dissenting opinion. I have yet to see anything form you that concretly refutes anything I've said. Thomas Ii] did [/i] have a winning record. The team did improve each year he was coach. Key players on the squad did improve each year he was coach.

    If you were looking for championships from 2001-2003, then yes: Thomas was a bad HC. However, with the youngest team in the NBA, such an expectation was unrealistic, and perhaps you're being a little to harsh.

    We disagree. This argument is highly subjective as both sides clearly have a point. Accept it. Deal with it. Move on.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    I think the problem, Yawk, is most (correctly so in my eyes) don't equate team success with a good coach. There can be a BIG correlation between them, see this season for that, but I just don't feel we got a little better each year because of Isiah, I think that was our talent maturing.

    Same with the idea that team wins = coach's quality. It's not that simple.

  3. #28
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    I think the problem, Yawk, is most (correctly so in my eyes) don't equate team success with a good coach. There can be a BIG correlation between them, see this season for that, but I just don't feel we got a little better each year because of Isiah, I think that was our talent maturing.

    Same with the idea that team wins = coach's quality. It's not that simple.
    Wouldn't you give Thomas credit for the talent maturing, and thus credit for the wins? JO, Harrington, and Artest have all credited Thomas with their maturation. Carlisle has credited Thomas many times for preparing the team and making them more mature.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    I have about 12 firends here in Massachusetts who are NBA fans. Mostly Celtics fans, but one Knick guy and one Lakers guy.

    To a man every one of them has a much LOWER opinion of Isiah as a coach than I do. They told me going into the Boston series last year that in their opinion the Pacers had given up on Isiah and that Boston would probably win. I said "no way". I wanted to believe otherwise. The series was an eye-opener for me. I found my friends to be totally accurate. Afterward, we all agreed, in fact, that had the Pacers been coached by O'Brien and the Celtics coached by Isiah, the Pacers would have won the series-- that they had superior talent with a coaching void.

    New Yawk, I can't help it if it disturbs you that I thought you were alone in your high opinion of Isiah's coaching ability. I have absolutely never met (in person) any sports fan SINCE Isiah was fired that thinks he was a good coach. All of my friends regard me as crazy for thinking he was anything but a terrible coach, when I argue that perhaps he was merely average.

    I had begun to believe that there were very few people out there with that opinion. I was wrong.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    I think the problem, Yawk, is most (correctly so in my eyes) don't equate team success with a good coach. There can be a BIG correlation between them, see this season for that, but I just don't feel we got a little better each year because of Isiah, I think that was our talent maturing.

    Same with the idea that team wins = coach's quality. It's not that simple.
    Wouldn't you give Thomas credit for the talent maturing, and thus credit for the wins? JO, Harrington, and Artest have all credited Thomas with their maturation. Carlisle has credited Thomas many times for preparing the team and making them more mature.

    If Mickey Mouse were coaching a bunch of 23 Y/O's, and they became more mature, does that make him a great coach? I'm just saying there's more than one influence in their lives, maybe it wasn't really the coach. Maybe those guys were crediting Thomas because they wanted to keep a soft, players-friendly coach who wouldn't demand a lot out of them?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #31

    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    JO, Harrington, and Artest have all credited Thomas with their maturation. Carlisle has credited Thomas many times for preparing the team and making them more mature.
    Artest matured under Isiah?

    Are you sure?

    Please discuss. This might entertain.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  7. #32
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    I have about 12 firends here in Massachusetts who are NBA fans. Mostly Celtics fans, but one Knick guy and one Lakers guy.

    To a man every one of them has a much LOWER opinion of Isiah as a coach than I do. They told me going into the Boston series last year that in their opinion the Pacers had given up on Isiah and that Boston would probably win. I said "no way". I wanted to believe otherwise. The series was an eye-opener for me. I found my friends to be totally accurate. Afterward, we all agreed, in fact, that had the Pacers been coached by O'Brien and the Celtics coached by Isiah, the Pacers would have won the series-- that they had superior talent with a coaching void.

    New Yawk, I can't help it if it disturbs you that I thought you were alone in your high opinion of Isiah's coaching ability. I have absolutely never met (in person) any sports fan SINCE Isiah was fired that thinks he was a good coach. All of my friends regard me as crazy for thinking he was anything but a terrible coach, when I argue that perhaps he was merely average.

    I had begun to believe that there were very few people out there with that opinion. I was wrong.
    Boston fans saying Isiah sucks, and that the Celtics will win.

    I'm... shocked. ed:

    You live in Massachusetts, and you can't find anyone "SINCE Isiah was fired that thinks he was a good coach."

    And, I'm... shocked. ed:

    All of your friends (who, I assume, also live in Mass) say you're crazy for calling Zeke average.

    Once again, I'm... shocked. Shocked... I tell you. ed:

    Your friends, I'm sure, are fine people, but BOSTON CELTIC FANS commenting on Isiah Thomas's abilities is like asking a Red Sox fan to be objective about Roger Clemens. Objectivity and Boston are like vinager and oil.

    I believe Kegboy's post summs it up best:

    "Now, was he [Thomas] as good as Carlisle? Of course not. Now, that said, I completely believe if we'd hired Rick instead of Isiah, Rick wouldn't still be the coach either. Donnie was completely right. Rick didn't have the people skills to succeed in such a massive rebuilding effort coming off the Finals. He didn't have expectations to live up to in Detroit, and he still got canned. Because of that he's learned to be more mellow and more flexible, and it's made him a better coach."

  8. #33

    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    He tried (and I believe this was his direction from Donnie) to get everyone playing time, but when your 13th man is as deserving of PT as your 7th man, establishing a consistent rotation just ain't going to happen." [Anthem]. Would that change your opinion?
    Again, you're pulling something out of your ***. Donnie takes a very hands off approach to his coaches. He pretty much let's them do their thing. He would talk to Isiah during the collapse because there was clearly something wrong and he felt the need to intervene at that point. Guess what? And this is something you would never know, but I do. Isiah wouldn't listen to Donnie. Which was incredibly frustrating to him. And it is at that point when I know Donnie lost faith in Isiah.


    Clearly, you don't like dissenting opinion. I have yet to see anything form you that concretly refutes anything I've said. Thomas Ii] did [/i] have a winning record. The team did improve each year he was coach. Key players on the squad did improve each year he was coach.

    We disagree. This argument is highly subjective as both sides clearly have a point. Accept it. Deal with it. Move on.
    Everything I've said has concretely refuted what you've said as it pertains to the discussion we're having. You choose not to listen.

    As for the argument being highly subjective on both sides, it's subjective from your side because you are wildly speculating whereas I'm not.

  9. #34
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    JO, Harrington, and Artest have all credited Thomas with their maturation. Carlisle has credited Thomas many times for preparing the team and making them more mature.
    Artest matured under Isiah?

    Are you sure?

    Please discuss. This might entertain.
    Without question, he became a better player under Thomas. His talent matured, which is what Hicks and I are discussing. Plz, read more carefully next time.

  10. #35
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Well, the word "good" is pretty subjective. I think if the question was if he was an "okay" coach, it'd probably be closer to 40%.

    That said, I'm surprised it is 20%. Isiah is the whipping boy on this forum. He's been gone for 7 months and people still can't go a day without talking about how much they hate him.
    Just a clarification... or a question...
    I don't know that I have EVER seen anyone say they hated Isiah here. Didn't like (or hated) his coaching I have certainly heard.

    Which are you saying?

    There's a difference. A big difference.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  11. #36
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Everything I've said has concretely refuted what you've said as it pertains to the discussion we're having. You choose not to listen.

    As for the argument being highly subjective on both sides, it's subjective from your side because you are wildly speculating whereas I'm not.
    Translation-- If you don't agree with me, you're deaf.



    I can't talk to someone who simply dismisses dissent, and states opinions as "concrete refutes." Pointless debate. We can't even agree to disagree.

  12. #37
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Everything I've said has concretely refuted what you've said as it pertains to the discussion we're having. You choose not to listen.

    As for the argument being highly subjective on both sides, it's subjective from your side because you are wildly speculating whereas I'm not.
    Translation-- If you don't agree with me, you're deaf.



    I can't talk to someone who simply dismisses dissent, and states opinions as "concrete refutes." Pointless debate. We can't even agree to disagree.
    Did you ever consider bulletproof may actually 'know' what he is saying is fact?

    I believe he told you as much in one of his replies. I, for one, will take him at his word.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  13. #38
    Gold Stagger Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    :
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  14. #39

    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?


    Boston fans saying Isiah sucks, and that the Celtics will win. I'm... shocked. ed:
    Boston fans, an LA fan, and a Knicks fan, but moreover NON-HOMER fans of NBA basketball,

    who specifically told me why and how the Celtics would beat the Pacers and then why and how the Celtics would then roll over like dogs to the Nets.

    None of the Celtics fans has green glasses. They knew they were backing a barely-above-0.500 team that would lose to any winning team with a good coach. They were gleeful to get the Indiana matchup, because it meant playing a team that was playing at a lower level, at the time, than ANY other playoff team.

    I know some Celtics fans who think that the C's can do no wrong and that all their opponents suck. I wasn't counting any of those people. I was counting serious knowlegable fans of NBA basketball.

    Poll any Knick fans around you that are also knowledgable NBA fans. Ask them if Isiah, while (so far) a good GM, was also a good coach.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  15. #40
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Everything I've said has concretely refuted what you've said as it pertains to the discussion we're having. You choose not to listen.

    As for the argument being highly subjective on both sides, it's subjective from your side because you are wildly speculating whereas I'm not.
    Translation-- If you don't agree with me, you're deaf.



    I can't talk to someone who simply dismisses dissent, and states opinions as "concrete refutes." Pointless debate. We can't even agree to disagree.
    Did you ever consider bulletproof may actually 'know' what he is saying is fact?

    I believe he told you as much in one of his replies. I, for one, will take him at his word.

    -Bball
    I believe he thinks he knows. No, I do not think he's lying, but I do not value his opinion as much as he does, and he has shown nothing that even suggests his POV is based more in fact than mine. And, unlike him, I respect dissent. I respect his opinion. He clearly does not respect mine.

  16. #41
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?


    Boston fans saying Isiah sucks, and that the Celtics will win. I'm... shocked. ed:
    Boston fans, an LA fan, and a Knicks fan, but moreover NON-HOMER fans of NBA basketball,

    who specifically told me why and how the Celtics would beat the Pacers and then why and how the Celtics would then roll over like dogs to the Nets.

    None of the Celtics fans has green glasses. They knew they were backing a barely-above-0.500 team that would lose to any winning team with a good coach. They were gleeful to get the Indiana matchup, because it meant playing a team that was playing at a lower level, at the time, than ANY other playoff team.

    I know some Celtics fans who think that the C's can do no wrong and that all their opponents suck. I wasn't counting any of those people. I was counting serious knowlegable fans of NBA basketball.

    Poll any Knick fans around you that are also knowledgable NBA fans. Ask them if Isiah, while (so far) a good GM, was also a good coach.
    They'll say he was a good coach Tom. I talk to Knicks fans every day. Again, I'm sure your friends are knowledgable. I have knowledgable friends too who think Isiah was good with a flawed roster, and that Carlisle is benefiting from Zeke's three good years.

    Let's just agree to disagree, and stop pissing on each other. Okay?

  17. #42
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    I think the problem, Yawk, is most (correctly so in my eyes) don't equate team success with a good coach. There can be a BIG correlation between them, see this season for that, but I just don't feel we got a little better each year because of Isiah, I think that was our talent maturing.

    Same with the idea that team wins = coach's quality. It's not that simple.
    Wouldn't you give Thomas credit for the talent maturing, and thus credit for the wins? JO, Harrington, and Artest have all credited Thomas with their maturation. Carlisle has credited Thomas many times for preparing the team and making them more mature.
    I'm sure he helped, yeah. But I also know that when it comes to "coach stuff" he was mediocre. Watching Carlisle shows me that. He didn't know when to call timeouts. He didn't know how to make good subsititutions, he wasn't that good at drawing up plays. He didn't get them to play above average team defense. That's the sign of an average at best coach.

  18. #43

    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Let's just agree to disagree, and stop pissing on each other. Okay?
    OK.

    We can at least agree that Grady Little was not a good baseball manager, right?

    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  19. #44
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Let's just agree to disagree, and stop pissing on each other. Okay?
    OK.

    We can at least agree that Grady Little was not a good baseball manager, right?

    Well, actually...

  20. #45
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?


    I'm sure he helped, yeah. But I also know that when it comes to "coach stuff" he was mediocre. Watching Carlisle shows me that. He didn't know when to call timeouts. He didn't know how to make good subsititutions, he wasn't that good at drawing up plays. He didn't get them to play above average team defense. That's the sign of an average at best coach.
    I also want to add that I think Isiah brought some 'Bob Knight' inspired ideas to the bench. I wonder if his use of timeouts was one of them? Knight never liked to call a timeout when the other team made a run. He thought it was a sign of weakness. He preferred the team play thru it.

    With tough and wily players that may work... but in the world of 3 point baskets you can be snowballed quickly.

    Bob Knight was also known to experiment with his lineup and play headgames.

    I dunno.... I'm the only one that ever really mentions that stuff so maybe I am wrong?

    I always thought losing your lead on the scoreboard was a pretty good sign of weakness....

    -Bball
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  21. #46

    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Interesting interview on Boston radio this morning with Celtics coach John Carroll.

    One part:

    radio guy John Dennis: If you do make it into the playoffs, should we even think there's a chance your team will do what it did last year and defeat Indiana?

    coach Caroll: Well, we don't know who we'd face. If it's Indiana-- well, that team is nothing like the one we faced last year. It's a well-oiled machine.

    Dennis: Did their coaching change make all the difference?

    Caroll: (long pause, little chuckle)... well, I'll leave that discussion to you and your callers. Umm... let just say I've known Rick Carlisle a very long time and he has really got that team together.
    Just look at Ron Artest. Ron is one of my very favorite players in the league since I've followed him since AAU ball. I've always thought that he is the type of player you win with, and then if he switched sides and played with 4 guys on the other team, he'd win with those guys too. But he needs to be handled carefully. You see Carlisle doing that very well.

    Dennis: Do you really want to make the playoffs? Wouldn't it be best to win as much as possible and miss the playoffs by a game, and get the best possible draft pick?

    Caroll: No, I don't think that way. Marcus Banks, Brandon Hunter, Ricky Davis, and all our young players have a lot more to gain from the experience of winning late-season games and dealing with having to face an Indiana, a New Jersey, a Detroit team in the playoffs. The experience of going into New York and going into Minnesota and winning games has already been a good experience. The learning opportunity of playoff basketball has a potential benefit that in my opinion far exceeds the value of possibly getting a slightly better draft pick.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  22. #47
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Once again, I'm... shocked. Shocked... I tell you. ed:
    You winnings sir.

  23. #48
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Once again, I'm... shocked. Shocked... I tell you. ed:
    You winnings sir.
    I love that flick!!!

    "Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects."

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Best. Movie. Ever.

    (And I thought I'd never post in this thread)
    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

    - Jimmy Buffett

  25. #50
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    Default Re: Was Isiah Thomas a good coach?

    Once again, I'm... shocked. Shocked... I tell you. ed:
    You winnings sir.
    I love that flick!!!

    "Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects."
    See that Major Strasser gets a good table, one close to the ladies.

    I have already given him the best, knowing he is German and would take it anyway

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