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Thread: Rick Carisle's Respect

  1. #26
    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Alot of solid posts have been made making good points that have led me to change my way of thinking, at least a little bit.

    I agree that it takes more than just great players to win championships; that it takes a great coach too. I guess in all my blustering, my point turned into something I wasn't really intending to say...Phil is a good coach. Larry is a good coach. Pop is a good coach. All three were lucky enough to have something else on their side that let the planets be aligned for a championship (or two or three).

    It is a complicated business, but I think more credit should go the players that have to perform than to the coaches who direct them. At the end of the day, the players have to get it done and that means alot in my book.

    Oh, and I still think that Phil and Larry are buttholes who are quality coaches, but basically got lucky with their personnel. Would another coach with the same personnel against the same teams at the time have won titles? Who knows. In a few cases, Jordan's Bulls, I believe YES. All I know is I can't wait to see how Phil and Larry do this coming season.



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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    I totally agree. A guy that believes in the basics and doesn't cause distractions to his team. You can say that Brown has won one so he is better. But he did get it handed to him. And he does constantly destroy teams.

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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by denyfizle
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    Those who say it doesn't take a great coach to win championships are nothing but fools PERIOD. Rick Carlisle isn't the best, but he's up there just a notch below the Larry Browns, Phil Jacksons etc. The only thing that bothered me about his coaching is his tendency to be stubborn. Last year during the playoffs againt Detroit we won 2 games with Jermaine O'Neal playing a significantly diminished where in one of them he scored less than ten points and fouled out. On our four losses our offense kept on pounding it to O'Neal despite being unsuccessful more often than not with the exception of game 6. I'm not saying I know what should've been done I'm not the coach, but I guess to be considered one of the elite, adjustments should have been made regarding this. Rick's a great coach, but if we win a couple I think it will solidify him among the best ever. His track record is compelling!
    I agree with that. Although, I think it's more that Rick too often falls back on the safe and conservative option, i.e. constantly dumping it into JO, not letting the team run, never giving rooks any playing time, etc.

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    So far only two parts of a well oiled machine have been mentioned in this thread. For a team to win a championship, the pieces of the puzzle must come together on a scale that far outweighes coach and player.

    #1. The owner. You must have ownership that is committed to winning. By that I don't mean opening up the bank vault and throwing stacks of cash at every free agent that comes over the horizon. Look where that's gotten Cuban. I'm talking about ownership that wants to win and knows what it takes to do it. Ownership that trusts in the folks that work for their team to do their jobs. This brings me to....

    #2. The GM. A savvy front office knows how to get the right personnel on the floor within salary cap restraints. The GM can't just put Jordan out there with 4 other guys as the Bulls tried to do in the mid 80's. Jordan scored a TON but he also got beat, a LOT. Oftentimes a front office has to go out in mid season and make a trade that makes them better. When a GM pulls the trigger on a trade that does that, it makes him look very good. The GM is also responsible for finding the right coach to fit the players he trots out there every day. This brings me to....

    #3. The coach. Sometimes, you have a talented team that just can't seem to win, like the Clippers. Sometimes you have a talented team that wins, but can't get over the hump, like the T-Wolves. You may have a bad coach, like the Knicks of last season, or you might simply have the wrong coach for your group of players. In each of these cases, a coaching change might have been all that was needed to squeeze out more wins. A coach in the NBA is more than a coach. He's also a confidant, a general, a disciplinarian, a buffer between the players and the media, or management, heck with these kids ages, sometimes even a babysitter. No level of basketball depends more on the coach/player relationship than the NBA. Which bring me to....

    #4. The players. Let's face it. A certain percentage of NBA players don't give a rat's you know what if they ever win a ring. They are perfectly happy playing every other day and cashing million dollar checks. I would imagine that every team has at least one. It's teams like Portland that have about seven players like that when you run into big trouble. But when you have even one player who's desire to win a ring is so great that it rubs off onto all of the players on his team, you have a powerful weapon. Not every player has to have Larry Bird's determination to win at all costs. However, you do have to have at least one leader like that, and complimentary players willing to follow him into battle, and go to the mat to make it a reality. When those kinds of things are evident, you have great fan support. Which brings me to....

    #5. The fans. What if you were a player on a truly excellent team. You have a great owner who you love to work for. You have an excellent GM who has chosen just the right mix of players in both skill and personality. You have a coach who expertly manages the players and is also a strong x's and o's guy. You have players who compliment each other well with a wide range of skills, capable of playing both offense and defense. Then, when you go out to put all of that on display, you have to do it in front of 5,000 half asleep fans. How much winning do you think would go on in that building? I know the chances are if you had all of that you'd also have fan support, but you see my point. You wouldn't win very much. There's no doubt that players get fired up for lively appreciative crowds. Anyone who doesn't think there's a homecourt advantage is fooling themselves.

    That's the way I see it. The sheer amount of things that have to fall into place for a team to win a title is amazing. When you think about it, winning multiple titles should be dang near impossible. If any of the things I've mentioned above are not there for that particular season, chances are you don't win a ring that year. I'm not saying that a coach isn't importiant, or that players aren't important. What I am saying is that those are only two vital pieces of the machine. Winning comes from the top. An NBA team has to be a winner from the rafters to the hardwood to get the job done.

  5. #30
    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil
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    An NBA team has to be a winner from the rafters to the hardwood to get the job done.
    This is the synopsis that I was searching for....Great post Travmil!



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  6. #31
    Naptown Seth
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    All winning a championship does is change the perception of a coaches abilities.
    Larry Brown was the same coach after his championship as he was 5 years ago in Philly.
    The only thing Larry Brown has on Rick Carlisle is experience.

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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by denyfizle
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    Those who say it doesn't take a great coach to win championships are nothing but fools PERIOD. Rick Carlisle isn't the best, but he's up there just a notch below the Larry Browns, Phil Jacksons etc. The only thing that bothered me about his coaching is his tendency to be stubborn. Last year during the playoffs againt Detroit we won 2 games with Jermaine O'Neal playing a significantly diminished where in one of them he scored less than ten points and fouled out. On our four losses our offense kept on pounding it to O'Neal despite being unsuccessful more often than not with the exception of game 6. I'm not saying I know what should've been done I'm not the coach, but I guess to be considered one of the elite, adjustments should have been made regarding this. Rick's a great coach, but if we win a couple I think it will solidify him among the best ever. His track record is compelling!


    That is a great post and I agree with most of it.

    But I do want to make one comment on your "Pacers play better when J.O is less involved theory". Many others believe the same thing to varying degrees.

    And there is some evidence that the Pacers do tend to win more often when J.O scores fewer points. Not sure there is really a cause and effect relationship on this issue, but lets assume there is. I would argue that often when things are going badly that is when teams tend to go to their best player more often. So the question is, does going to J.O. a lot cause the bad results or do things start to go bad within a game and then the Pacers are forced to go to J.O. more often. I would argue the latter

    Sorta of the chicken and the egg debate.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Great, great post travmil.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    I'd still pick JVG if I had the #1 pick in the coaching draft.

    Gnome, thanks for picking up the "What Pop did to Bo Hill was despicable" mantra for me. Saved me some typing.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #35
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'd still pick JVG if I had the #1 pick in the coaching draft.

    Gnome, thanks for picking up the "What Pop did to Bo Hill was despicable" mantra for me. Saved me some typing.
    You know, we need a feature on the board that posts our ready made speeches for the newbies. Jay could have Bo Hill Got Screwed and The Season We Do Not Discuss, Buck could have Offensive Spacing 101 and How Do I Love Ron, Let Me Count The Ways. Peck would have Dale's a God Among Men and Donnie Walsh Is Overrated. Hicks would have An Ode to My Girlfriend. Bball would have Jonathon Bender Is A Steaming Pile of *****.

    And of course, I would have Reason #x,xxx Why I'm Not Getting Tickets Anymore.
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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Hicks would have An Ode to My Girlfriend.
    I really, really hope that wasn't a BRad Miller reference.....

    Bball would have Jonathon Bender Is A Steaming Pile of *****.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  12. #37
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    I just went to the next thread, and Jay was tossing out his same old JO is a 5, so I guess that should be added to the list. My bad.
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  13. #38
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    At least you aren't still holding me to that "fifteen new players" thread. I'll never live that one down...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #39
    Member denyfizle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    That is a great post and I agree with most of it.

    But I do want to make one comment on your "Pacers play better when J.O is less involved theory". Many others believe the same thing to varying degrees.

    And there is some evidence that the Pacers do tend to win more often when J.O scores fewer points. Not sure there is really a cause and effect relationship on this issue, but lets assume there is. I would argue that often when things are going badly that is when teams tend to go to their best player more often. So the question is, does going to J.O. a lot cause the bad results or do things start to go bad within a game and then the Pacers are forced to go to J.O. more often. I would argue the latter

    Sorta of the chicken and the egg debate.
    Yes you have a point, and we've went to JO in the same degree before during the 2004 east finals... i just felt that given JO was hurt and it was obvious in a lot of ways during the East semis and given the fact the we went on a nice winning streak during the latter part of the season without JO, and the fact that most of our wins in the playoffs especially the 2 games against the Pistons were because of the other guys not wearing number 7 that maybe Rick could've adjusted a little bit during the instances wherein we were being too predictable and unsuccessful dumping the ball to JO. I admire JO's courage and pride by trying to go up against both Wallaces one handed (left-handed) at that, but i just felt if there was ever a time I questioned our great coach (not sarcastic) Rick, that this was it. Then again, I don't know any better that's why nobody's paying me to coach.. just my opinion. At any degree, Rick is still "tha man" for me.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: Rick Carisle's Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    At least you aren't still holding me to that "fifteen new players" thread. I'll never live that one down...
    Well, we've got a different roster this year, so it doesn't count. And who knows, we may just get your wish before all is said and done.
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