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Thread: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Same with Rik, DD, AD, Reggie, Jackson, and Travis for that matter.

    The thing with that team is, everyone knew they're role, and did it.

    Jalen doesn't get more credit than anyone on that team.
    Boy, I don't know.

    That was Jalen's team.

    Reggie was already sliding into deferral mode. He'd step up and have big games in the playoffs, but Jalen was more consistent ( ) and Jalen was certainly our best player as the playoffs progressed. Hell, for everyone that *****es about Austin's contract... even he played better than Reggie the only time either guy was in The Finals. That's why multiple teams were offering him a a big, fat contract that we matched.
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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Oops. When are you leaving

    I thought I could slip that by you.

    Have a good week or so

    You won't be reading the forum will you ?

    Actually I leave Sunday a.m.

    I will have access to the internet but I will only be checking in every now & then.


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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Boy, I don't know.

    That was Jalen's team.

    Reggie was already sliding into deferral mode. He'd step up and have big games in the playoffs, but Jalen was more consistent ( ) and Jalen was certainly our best player as the playoffs progressed. Hell, for everyone that *****es about Austin's contract... even he played better than Reggie the only time either guy was in The Finals. That's why multiple teams were offering him a a big, fat contract that we matched.

    Now Jay normally I don't like to disagree with you but this is the second time I've seen you refer to the offensive player of a series as the best player.

    Now while I'm not nearly as anal as U.B. is about defense at the expense of offense I do feel that you have to contribute on both sides of the floor as well as rebound to be considered the best player. Jalen certainly was the most consistant scorer but I would hardly call him the best player.

    Much like you referred to Smits as the best player in the 95 series vs. the Knicks. It was all I could do to remain consciouss after I read that.

    In all honesty for overall play & I know neither of us want to admit this because I'd just as soon tell you Dale was the best but if I'm honest I have to say that Mark Jackson played both sides of the ball equally & helped out on the glass.

    But even that is missing the point of those teams. They were truley teams, no one part was more important than the other. Without Dale's interior defense Smits would be, well he'd be Smits on defense. Without Riks sweet shooting Dale's lack of offense would be exposed. Without Reggie's clutch shooting etc.,,,


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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    You like David too, huh?


    He must have changed it.

    He had a sexy icon of some chick on there, one from American Pie I believe.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Peck's taking cheap shots at me on his way out of town

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I'm going to ask this, and I'm not trying to be a smartass. What's the difference between Jalen Rose and Reggie Miller? A few clutch shots? Scoring is both of their strengths. They are both mediocre defenders at best. Reggie shinned best when he had a strong supporting cast, but when the team itself wasn't that strong, Reggie still put up solid numbers....Sounds just like Jalen....

    Reggie and Jalen got the furthest in their careers when they were both fed off of each other, and a strong cast of role players. Reggie seemed to have a bit more luck being placed with a stronger cast of teammates than Jalen did, but outside of a few clutch shots......they are pretty much the same.
    Reggie would have done all of what he did in his career without Jalen also. He did it before Jalen, when Jalen was here and after Jalen left.

    A few clutch shots. There is a lot more than just a few shots that Reggie did. There is alot more to basketball than just athletic talent (Fab Five?). You have to buy into the concept of playing within a system. For a team to succeed you need your best players to play team ball. Jalen never has and never will get that concept. He is a perpetual whiny *** pouter. He was so full of himself on the basketball court constantly breaking the coaches plays, pulling up whenever he wanted to, passing when there is 2 secs left in the shot clock, whining to the refrees, etc,etc.

    Donnie dodged one there and got lucky to get Brad and Ronnie for Jalen. What was Krauss thinking?

    What Reggie did for this team, JUST THIS YEAR, after 11/19 happened is enough. Reggie, along with the coaching staff, put this team on his back, did not allow them to quit, etc, etc. Jalen can't even imagine doing what Reggie has done for this franchise/lockerroom, and we are not even on the court yet.

    I am no Sassan but comparing Jalen to Reggie and saying what is the difference is a bit ridiculous.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerwaala
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    Reggie would have done all of what he did in his career without Jalen also. He did it before Jalen, when Jalen was here and after Jalen left.

    A few clutch shots. There is a lot more than just a few shots that Reggie did. There is alot more to basketball than just athletic talent (Fab Five?). You have to buy into the concept of playing within a system. For a team to succeed you need your best players to play team ball. Jalen never has and never will get that concept. He is a perpetual whiny *** pouter. He was so full of himself on the basketball court constantly breaking the coaches plays, pulling up whenever he wanted to, passing when there is 2 secs left in the shot clock, whining to the refrees, etc,etc.

    Donnie dodged one there and got lucky to get Brad and Ronnie for Jalen. What was Krauss thinking?

    What Reggie did for this team, JUST THIS YEAR, after 11/19 happened is enough. Reggie, along with the coaching staff, put this team on his back, did not allow them to quit, etc, etc. Jalen can't even imagine doing what Reggie has done for this franchise/lockerroom, and we are not even on the court yet.

    I am no Sassan but comparing Jalen to Reggie and saying what is the difference is a bit ridiculous.

    I wasn't comparing their success. No Question that Reggie has had a superior career.

    I was comparing their style. Honestly, what is the difference between Reggie's game and Jalen's? Scoring is their clear strength, and they both played mediocre defense. They're both scorers, and if you compare their scoring ability in their primes, it's about equal.

    I wasn't trying to compare their importance to this franchise, because obviously their is no comparison.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I wasn't comparing their success. No Question that Reggie has had a superior career.

    I was comparing their style. Honestly, what is the difference between Reggie's game and Jalen's? Scoring is their clear strength, and they both played mediocre defense. They're both scorers, and if you compare their scoring ability in their primes, it's about equal.

    I wasn't trying to compare their importance to this franchise, because obviously their is no comparison.
    so since reggie never signed anything near a max contract, then u should maybe reconsider ur bashing of reggies contracts then, right?

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Peck's taking cheap shots at me on his way out of town

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    so since reggie never signed anything near a max contract, then u should maybe reconsider ur bashing of reggies contracts then, right?

    Reggie wouldnt have gotten anything close anywhere else to the 6 mil a season 3 year deal we signed him to in 2003.

    Lots of teams would have payed Rose a high amount in 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Reggie wouldnt have gotten anything close anywhere else to the 6 mil a season 3 year deal we signed him to in 2003.

    Lots of teams would have payed Rose a high amount in 2000.
    and u dont think reggie couldve gotten more than 3 years/36 million on the open market then???

    better yet you dont think he couldve gotten more than 5 years and 54 million??? considering teams couldve paid him around 5 years and 80 million doesnt seem too far out of line....allan houston got 6 years and 100 million...

    based on everything, it seems to me when people ***** about reggies contract next season, they dont get it.....

    he played the last 5 seasons for about 54 million....thats hardly out of line....especially for someone who doesnt seem to have much of a problem with jalen 'the cancer' rose's contract...

    if reggie miller wouldve gone 'brad miller' on our ***, he couldve left a long time ago for a lot more money....

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    and u dont think reggie couldve gotten more than 3 years/36 million on the open market then???

    better yet you dont think he couldve gotten more than 5 years and 54 million??? considering teams couldve paid him around 5 years and 80 million doesnt seem too far out of line....allan houston got 6 years and 100 million...

    based on everything, it seems to me when people ***** about reggies contract next season, they dont get it.....

    he played the last 5 seasons for about 54 million....thats hardly out of line....especially for someone who doesnt seem to have much of a problem with jalen 'the cancer' rose's contract...

    if reggie miller wouldve gone 'brad miller' on our ***, he couldve left a long time ago for a lot more money....

    Reggie turned 35 in the summer of 2000. I don't know if many teams would have signed a 35 year old to something that was more than 12 million a year for more than 3 years.

    Allan Houston got his money at the age of 30. MAJOR difference between age 30 and 35. Not many GM's would take the risk of signing a player to something more than 3 years at age 35. It doesn't matter how good you are, or how good of shape you are in. Too many things can happen to a player in their late 30's.

    Reggie flirted with New York in 1996. New York went with the younger Allan Houston.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Reggie turned 35 in the summer of 2000. I don't know if many teams would have signed a 35 year old to something that was more than 12 million a year for more than 3 years.

    Allan Houston got his money at the age of 30. MAJOR difference between age 30 and 35. Not many GM's would take the risk of signing a player to something more than 3 years at age 35. It doesn't matter how good you are, or how good of shape you are in. Too many things can happen to a player in their late 30's.

    Reggie flirted with New York in 1996. New York went with the younger Allan Houston.
    u know some times i wish u would make up ur mind....u flip flop more than a pancake at waffle house....

    in another thread recently u said the only way the pacers got to the finals in 2000, was that reggie put the team on his shoulders and willed them to the finals.....yet that same guy couldnt get an average contract that summer????? croshere can get 56 million for 7 years, jalen can get a max contract, but reggie couldnt have gotten the same as those guys???? what are u smoking my young friend????

    then u like to talk about how jo isnt worthy of a max contract and yada yada yada, but then ur on here talking bout how worthy jalen is and how much hes disrespected????

    jalen is a cancer who has had problems everywhere hes ever went....only larry bird was able to keep him in check, and god knows what might have happened if bird wouldve stayed around....

    hes not the first cancer to get a max contract....and i applaud donnie for making the right business move in giving it to him instead of letting him walk...and then turning around and dumping his sorry a$$ the first chance he got-let alone for artest and miller....

    jalen epitomizes whats wrong with the nba....a guy with alot of talent who puts forth very little effort and is a problem child everywhere he goes....a gross underachiever.....i can probably cant on one hand the number of games hes played defense....and for someone of his ability, thats close to being criminal....

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    say what you will about Jalen, but he was the best playoff performer on the 2000 team, night in and night out.

    That said, that Jalen hasn't been heard from since....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    say what you will about Jalen, but he was the best playoff performer on the 2000 team, night in and night out.

    That said, that Jalen hasn't been heard from since....

    care to expand on that?
    I will help you with some stats.


    Name G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
    +--------------------+---+----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+
    Reggie Miller 22 40.5 7.9 17.5 2.6 6.7 5.5 5.9 0.4 2.0 2.4 2.7 1.0 0.5 1.3 1.7 24.0
    Jalen Rose 23 41.9 7.4 17.0 1.3 3.0 4.7 5.8 0.4 4.0 4.4 3.4 0.7 0.5 2.2 3.1 20.8

    Stats are a different thing. Who put that team on its back int he playoffs in hte Milwaukee, PHI, NYK series is beyond obvious.


    Jalen Rose will and always be about contracts. That was a contract year and that is the reason he tried. Also, you can have great offensive numbers and do nothing else on and off the court.

    If you are just trying to stir up this thread like a sports talk radio host, I have fallen prey.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Reggie wouldnt have gotten anything close anywhere else to the 6 mil a season 3 year deal we signed him to in 2003.

    Lots of teams would have payed Rose a high amount in 2000.

    I would have let them back then. But we got Ronnie for having signed Jalen. So it worked out.


    The following is from a previous post of mine but is very relevant here -

    Also, for those of you who think Reggie is overpaid, I don't think so. 5 million for an average of 13 points with the potential to make game winning or game altering shots is pretty normal. He is good for team chemistry and brings a lot of intangibles. He might be taking some minutes away from Freddie but he is not overpaid.

    Also, none of the contracts that Reggie signed were bloated
    Reggie signed the following

    1 - rookie contract (I don't know how much)
    2 - 1990-1996 - 7 years, 18 million
    3 - 1996-2000 - 4 years, 36 million (This was after the NY heroics and there were some tough negotiations - He took the Pacers to the NBA finals during the last year of this contract)
    4 - 2000-2003 - 3 years, 36 million
    5 - 2003-2006 - 3 years, 17.5 million (this might end up being a 2 year 12 mil)

    So we have signed him for 18 years 110 million. There is inflation, market value at the time and all but for all the excitement he has given that is a bargain. All his contracts were earned in my IMHO. He never got the 7 year bloated contracts that Juan Howard and Jalen Rose got for 1 good season - of for that matter Allan Houston.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    say what you will about Jalen, but he was the best playoff performer on the 2000 team, night in and night out.
    Or not.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    u know some times i wish u would make up ur mind....u flip flop more than a pancake at waffle house....

    in another thread recently u said the only way the pacers got to the finals in 2000, was that reggie put the team on his shoulders and willed them to the finals.....yet that same guy couldnt get an average contract that summer????? croshere can get 56 million for 7 years, jalen can get a max contract, but reggie couldnt have gotten the same as those guys???? what are u smoking my young friend????

    then u like to talk about how jo isnt worthy of a max contract and yada yada yada, but then ur on here talking bout how worthy jalen is and how much hes disrespected????

    jalen is a cancer who has had problems everywhere hes ever went....only larry bird was able to keep him in check, and god knows what might have happened if bird wouldve stayed around....

    hes not the first cancer to get a max contract....and i applaud donnie for making the right business move in giving it to him instead of letting him walk...and then turning around and dumping his sorry a$$ the first chance he got-let alone for artest and miller....

    jalen epitomizes whats wrong with the nba....a guy with alot of talent who puts forth very little effort and is a problem child everywhere he goes....a gross underachiever.....i can probably cant on one hand the number of games hes played defense....and for someone of his ability, thats close to being criminal....

    "flip more than pancakes in a waffle house:".....I've never heard that one before.

    Reggie did put the team on his back in 2000. When did I say he didn't? Reggie laid it all on the line in must win games.

    All I meant was, Jalen played consistantly in every game in 2000. He came up big for us. I've stated onthis thread that I agree with Walsh's decision to trade Jalen, because the Pacers got a steal(then turned around and pulled a lopsided trade a year later with Brad).

    Yes, Jalen was overpaid, but his game never depreciated. He was always the same player, and still is.

    And I agree 100% with the Pacers signing JO. He would have bolted to SA if the Pacers didnt offer him that contract. All I'm saying is, don't you think that the Pacers expect JO to lead the Pacers to the finals? If JO doesn't, I'd think the Pacers management would be disappointed. JO himself has stated numerous times that he wants to win a title for the Pacers.

    Have you heard of something called age? If you haven't, I'll explain it to you. You see, Reggie was turning 35 in the summer of 2000, while Croshere was just 25, and Jalen was 27.

    You don't sign 35 year old players to 7 year deals. Period.

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    "flip more than pancakes in a waffle house:".....I've never heard that one before.

    Reggie did put the team on his back in 2000. When did I say he didn't? Reggie laid it all on the line in must win games.

    All I meant was, Jalen played consistantly in every game in 2000. He came up big for us.
    I wonder if the fact that Walsh had already decided he was breaking up the 99-2000 team (and had already started on it) acted as a motivator to push Miller et al to take the team farther than ever before... even tho it had been decided that they had 'peaked'?


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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    I wonder if the fact that Walsh had already decided he was breaking up the 99-2000 team (and had already started on it) acted as a motivator to push Miller et al to take the team farther than ever before... even tho it had been decided that they had 'peaked'?


    -Bball

    Oh, definitely.

    There was a quote by Miller I remember after game 5 against Milwaukee, a reporter asked him something along the lines of "did you want to go out there and win this for coach Bird, since this could have been his last game?"

    Miller responded with something like: "No, I did this for myself, this could have been my last game too."

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I wasn't comparing their success. No Question that Reggie has had a superior career.

    I was comparing their style. Honestly, what is the difference between Reggie's game and Jalen's? Scoring is their clear strength, and they both played mediocre defense. They're both scorers, and if you compare their scoring ability in their primes, it's about equal.

    I wasn't trying to compare their importance to this franchise, because obviously their is no comparison.
    Wow.

    Okay, to begin with, their foundations are completely different. Jalen hates playing off the ball. Reggie is probably the best ever at playing off the ball.

    Jalen is a scorer, Reggie is a shooter.

    Reggie had poor defensive skills but was an passable defender due to effort. Jalen has shown on occasion he has very, very good defensive skills but is a poor defender due to a complete lack of effort.

    To expound on that, Reggie only had one real skill, yet through hard work and perseverence succeeded in having an 18-year, HOF career. Jalen is a complete player, has the prototypical NBA body, length, handle, speed, touch, bball-IQ, you name it, he has it. And yet, he's seen as an overpaid attitude problem.
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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    And yet, he's seen as an overpaid attitude problem.
    That's just Bad Jalen. Give Good Jalen his props.

    What the is wrong with me? Where the is my Vicodin!

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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Wow.

    -snip-
    To expound on that, Reggie only had one real skill, yet through hard work and perseverence succeeded in having an 18-year, HOF career. Jalen is a complete player, has the prototypical NBA body, length, handle, speed, touch, bball-IQ, you name it, he has it. And yet, he's seen as an overpaid attitude problem.
    Bingo. Jalen was the best overall player on the Larry-Bird-era Pacers' teams.

    Maybe he wasn't always interested in playing defense, although he tried harder during that timeperiod than any other. Still, he was the best overall player on the Pacers then. The Pacers offense was designed around two plays - get Jalen the ball on the wing and let him do whatever he wants, or run multiple screens for Reggie.

    I've said this many times on here, but I don't get the venom toward Jalen from the PD community?

    I think a portion of you are so enamored with the hard working underdog that you don't appreciate a guy who's so talented on the offensive end that he makes it look easy. Then again, I wasn't a big fan of Haywoode Workman because I realized that underneath all that hard work and likeable persona, he really wasn't much more skilled than our current backup PG. He really could kill an offense, too.

    ++++++++++++

    Peck, who are you saying was a better Pacers' player during the 2000 NBA Finals? Austin? No, but he was probably our second best player. Reggie? No - his game one disappearing act put us in a difficult position the rest of the series. Rik? - No. Perkins? Played his role well. Dale? Did all he could but was vastly overmatched. Jackson, IIRC, didn't play particuarly well that series. Even *I* looked forward to Travis a tiny amount... But Travis was Travis: hit big shots, played "D", drove me batty with all the dribbling.

    I'll give you that Dale was the MVP of Game #7 against NY in 1995. That's my all-time favorite Dale Davis game, when he came out without the brace. But that series was all about Rik winning the Rik v. Patrick matchup. If Rik doesn't win that, over seven games, the Knicks are playing Orlando in the ECFs.
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    Naptown Seth
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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Jalen Rose is proof positive that the team makes the player. Players are only respected when they're fortunate enough to play on winning teams, because a lot of the fans and media don't relieze that it takes a complete team to win, not just a single talented player. Put Chauncey Billps or Rip Hamilton on the Raptors, and the same thing that happened to Jalen Rose happens to them. They go from being in the limelight to being percieved as washedup afterthoughts when infact they're the exact same players.

    As for the original list, there's a big difference between signing a player to a contract that everyone knows their not worth and signing someone to a contract that was percieved to be a good deal at the time.
    Nobody in their right mind thought Allan Houston was ever worth $16.7M a year. That was a plain horrible contract. Croshere on the other hand just got off a Finals appearance in which he was arguably 1 1/4 games away from being Finals MVP, and looked like the 2nd coming off Tom Googliatta minus the injuries. I'd say Croshere's contract at the time was a huge baragin compared to what these guys are getting today. The Austin Croshere of the 2000 offseason would've gotten $10M per this offseason..

  25. #50
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: RealGM - The Ten Worst Free-Agent Signings of the Past Decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Jackson, IIRC, didn't play particuarly well that series. Even *I* looked forward to Travis a tiny amount... But Travis was Travis: hit big shots, played "D", drove me batty with all the dribbling.
    IIRC Jax had a very good series. I don't remember much about his defense... altho that could be because it was forgettable... but then had it been especially bad I think I'd remember. I remember his offensive game being good and I remember thinking Travis was being overused and it hurting us when Jax was off the court.

    I remember Jax hitting some big shots when we needed a basket.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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