View Poll Results: Who do the Pacers waive

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  • Croshere

    45 56.25%
  • Bender

    16 20.00%
  • Another player

    1 1.25%
  • Nobody

    18 22.50%
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Thread: Croshere or Bender

  1. #1
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    Default Croshere or Bender

    This was discussed at the party & I thought I'd toss it out to get some more thoughts.

    The Pacers will be permitted to waive one player this year. They will still have to pay the players salary but that money will not count against the luxury tax penalty.

    Until recently most assumed that Crosher would be the guy to go, if in fact a cut is even made. However, I think Bender is already targeted.

    Both have 2 years remaining, Croshere is listed at 8,910,000 & Bender at 7,100,000 on HoopsHype

    http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm

    So, who goes?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    They won't waive anyone. They should, but I don't think they will
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    I will go with Croshere. His contract is worth roughly 4 million. I'd rather see that glass pogo stick get cut/wavied though. Atleast Croshere can suit up and doesn't ride the bench to his millions of dollars salary.

  4. #4
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie
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    I will go with Croshere. His contract is worth roughly 4 million. I'd rather see that glass pogo stick get cut/wavied though. Atleast Croshere can suit up and doesn't ride the bench to his millions of dollars salary.

    if not for all the injuries and suspensions, croshere does ride the bench and doesnt ever play

    its not gonna be bender....they wouldnt continue to spend all the money and effort on his rehab with dyrek...

    plus if he doesnt recover, its possible they could get a medical exception for him....

    now, whether they waive anybody or not is a different question...i have a feeling they may wait to see if they end up using the MLE or not as well as what happens to jj and dale....ie if they sign saras and resign the other two then i really believe they waive austin....if those things dont work out, then he may continue on the team..

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Well... Croshere probably hurt his value to some fans by playing last season when he should've been on the IR list. The guy was suddenly asked to play big minutes and he did so admirably but he hit a wall and injuries mounted. Being shorthanded, IMHO he opted to be a warm body and make himself available to play even tho he was hurt. I think some forget what Croshere initially meant to this team following the suspensions. He stepped up big time.

    He's been a good soldier all during his time here. On a loyalty basis I would keep Croshere.

    Bender, OTOH, didn't hurt his legend with his fans much if at all by spending time watching the games in street clothes. His legend only grew in some eyes...

    On a business basis... It's a little tougher. I'm sick of Bender being on this team and being an albatross. I think cutting him would send a signal about what is expected and what won't be tolerated. As far as the winning side of the ledger goes I think there would be some benefit to cutting Bender BUT it might not be as tangible or easily seen by the fans as cutting Croshere and recouping the extra 1.7 mil of his tax hit on our salary (since he makes more than Bender). That ASSumes that the Pacers would USE that savings to do something for the team's on the court product and not just use it to make the Simon's some more money (or save them some as the case may be).

    If it just comes down to saving money then obviously it is Croshere that gets punted.

    If it comes down to anything else then I think the decision is tougher... and if loyalty counts for anything then it is Croshere who will stay.

    Since one of the knocks on Walsh is that he's loyal to a fault then I think it's not a foregone conclusion either gets punted. Still this could be viewed as a win/win situation since the cut player still gets paid AND gets a chance for a new start on another team.... and the Pacers save some money.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    they shouldn't get rid of either. both will be worth a lot next yr and could be used to get a very quality player through a trade.

  7. #7
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    or....


    they could waive reggie miller....

    which in the end wouldnt change a thing.....but save them the luxury tax this year only...

    but then they will have pollards contract coming off plus an additional year to purge some salary..

  8. #8

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    or....


    they could waive reggie miller....

    which in the end wouldnt change a thing.....but save them the luxury tax this year only...

    but then they will have pollards contract coming off plus an additional year to purge some salary..
    I think they would simply not pay him at all. I think they could still do that since he is retired.

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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Kegboy

    Sorry about not making this public.

  10. #10
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie
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    I think they would simply not pay him at all. I think they could still do that since he is retired.
    whoever they waive they still have to pay....

    but if they waive reggie, there is no chance reggie is going to play anywhere else....

    so in some respects hes a logical candidate....they still pay him...which was the idea....but his salary doesnt count for luxury tax purposes...

    now theres nearly a 3 million dollar difference between reggie and austin...but the point is reggie isnt gonna play anyway...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    whoever they waive they still have to pay....

    but if they waive reggie, there is no chance reggie is going to play anywhere else....

    so in some respects hes a logical candidate....they still pay him...which was the idea....but his salary doesnt count for luxury tax purposes...

    now theres nearly a 3 million dollar difference between reggie and austin...but the point is reggie isnt gonna play anyway...
    Oh I know what your saying, I just meant that I know the Pacers had a choice to pay Reggie for next season or not to pay since he is retireing and all but I would think it would be to late anyways to not pay him since they already said they would.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie
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    Oh I know what your saying, I just meant that I know the Pacers had a choice to pay Reggie for next season or not to pay since he is retireing and all but I would think it would be to late anyways to not pay him since they already said they would.
    Rommie,
    We'll never get confirmation of this, since it would be admitting to skirting the spirit of the NBA bylaws, BUT I think Reggie, Walsh, et al knew that he would be getting paid for this third year when he signed the contract. IMHO it was a way to backdoor him more money and spread the hit out over 3 years instead of 2.

    Reggie told us when he'd be retiring years ago... all he did this past season was to confirm what he'd said before.

    That doesn't negate them from taking advantage of this new CBA leniency and using Reggie in and of itself tho. Obviously the Pacers save less money this route but then they don't have to cut a player from the real roster either. That said, I wonder if there's any stickiness there with him going to the waiver wire and somebody attempting to take him in some kind of situation where they could use him as part of a trade (that would be like a salary dump to somebody). Do you have any say if somebody picks you up before you clear waivers? IE: Reggie is waived. Before clearing waivers somebody takes him (and his full salary) and then uses that in a trade with another team (allowing the other team to move a player in a salary dump since Reggie would be retiring).

    But then that messes up what I believe to be a backdoor handshake to see that Reggie's last contract was really 9mil per year but they were slick and deferred 6 mil of it until a 3rd year.

    As complicated as the NBA salary stuff is I am sure I overlooked something... (like could you even trade a player claimed off waivers?)

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Well... Croshere probably hurt his value to some fans by playing last season when he should've been on the IR list. The guy was suddenly asked to play big minutes and he did so admirably but he hit a wall and injuries mounted. Being shorthanded, IMHO he opted to be a warm body and make himself available to play even tho he was hurt. I think some forget what Croshere initially meant to this team following the suspensions. He stepped up big time.

    He's been a good soldier all during his time here. On a loyalty basis I would keep Croshere.

    Bender, OTOH, didn't hurt his legend with his fans much if at all by spending time watching the games in street clothes. His legend only grew in some eyes...

    On a business basis... It's a little tougher. I'm sick of Bender being on this team and being an albatross. I think cutting him would send a signal about what is expected and what won't be tolerated. As far as the winning side of the ledger goes I think there would be some benefit to cutting Bender BUT it might not be as tangible or easily seen by the fans as cutting Croshere and recouping the extra 1.7 mil of his tax hit on our salary (since he makes more than Bender). That ASSumes that the Pacers would USE that savings to do something for the team's on the court product and not just use it to make the Simon's some more money (or save them some as the case may be).

    If it just comes down to saving money then obviously it is Croshere that gets punted.

    If it comes down to anything else then I think the decision is tougher... and if loyalty counts for anything then it is Croshere who will stay.

    Since one of the knocks on Walsh is that he's loyal to a fault then I think it's not a foregone conclusion either gets punted. Still this could be viewed as a win/win situation since the cut player still gets paid AND gets a chance for a new start on another team.... and the Pacers save some money.


    I totally agree. Everybody is so quick to blame Cro for being a bench warmer of sorts but A)He did really step up for us when we needed him the most B)He plays right through the pain when he knows that his team needs him C) He's played in more than 70 games in the past 6 seasons.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am sick of waiting for the great athlete that is Jonathan Bender. Athletecism is great, but heart and loyalty make a great player. Austin Croshere may not be ever considered one of the best, but hey, he wasn't voted one of the biggest draft busts either, was he?!
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Rommie,

    That said, I wonder if there's any stickiness there with him going to the waiver wire and somebody attempting to take him in some kind of situation where they could use him as part of a trade (that would be like a salary dump to somebody). Do you have any say if somebody picks you up before you clear waivers? IE: Reggie is waived. Before clearing waivers somebody takes him (and his full salary) and then uses that in a trade with another team (allowing the other team to move a player in a salary dump since Reggie would be retiring).
    I'm pretty sure with the new CBA that the one time waiver player will sign a new contract with another team, while the old team still pays for the old contract. Therefore, there could not be any trade value to Reggie's current deal.

    IMHO, I don't think they waive Reggie, just the idea of that doesn't sound right, does it? I understand it would be for LT reasons, but still...

    IMHO, Croshere is the one to go, with 2 years still on his contract and with Granger signed, I believe he will be the odd man out. The pacers feel they have invested too much into Bender at this point to simply waive him. IF they do anything with Bender, it would be with a trade to get something in return.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    I gave about three different answers at the party. At first I said I thought they should waive Reggie Miller. He's not going to play anyway, There is no chance he'll help the Pacers.

    Then later in the evening, I said they should waive Bender instead of Croshere. As the point was made Cro has done everything asked of him, and it would send a bad message to the rest of the team if Bender is kept and Cro is waived.

    But then what if Bender gets healthy and can help the Pacers in some way.

    I really don't think the pacers will cut anyone unless Cro askd to be waived

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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    The Pacers definitely will do something. Bird publicly stated that the Pacers were limited in what they could do with free agents because they weren't allowed to carry salaries that might cause them to pay the luxury tax.

    I think the Pacers will waive Croshere. His is the largest salary of a player that could be released.

    By waiving Croshere first, they even have a chance of further shedding salary in the event that Bender's recovery is premature and he chooses to retire due to his medical problems. That's probably not going to happen, but what the heck... it's my post right? And a fellow can dream. I figure Bender is untradeable, so I have to dream up some loony scenario to get rid of him.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by fooddaman
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    I'm pretty sure with the new CBA that the one time waiver player will sign a new contract with another team, while the old team still pays for the old contract. Therefore, there could not be any trade value to Reggie's current deal.

    IMHO, I don't think they waive Reggie, just the idea of that doesn't sound right, does it? I understand it would be for LT reasons, but still...

    IMHO, Croshere is the one to go, with 2 years still on his contract and with Granger signed, I believe he will be the odd man out. The pacers feel they have invested too much into Bender at this point to simply waive him. IF they do anything with Bender, it would be with a trade to get something in return.
    I thought if a player cleared waivers he was basically the same as a free agent and could sign with anybody for whatever he wanted while his old team was still on the hook for the balance. OTOH, if he was claimed off waivers (before a set period of time expired) then his new team was assuming the existing contract. Therefore (assuming you could trade a player immediately after claiming them from waivers) a team could take Reggie and then trade him to a team wanting salary relief.

    My point being, if that type of scenario is correct, there could be some sticky situations arise IF Reggie was expecting 6 mil this year from the Pacers as part of a handshake deal. Plus he'd then be expected to retire 'officially' (file the papers) from a team other than the Pacers.

    I doubt anyone would claim Reggie from the waiver wire BUT especially if there were some backdoor shenanigans going on with his contract it might not be a gamble the team would want to take. It might not even be a gamble they'd want to take for PR reasons of Reggie being a Pacer his entire career.


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  18. #18
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    I thought if a player cleared waivers he was basically the same as a free agent and could sign with anybody for whatever he wanted while his old team was still on the hook for the balance. OTOH, if he was claimed off waivers (before a set period of time expired) then his new team was assuming the existing contract. Therefore (assuming you could trade a player immediately after claiming them from waivers) a team could take Reggie and then trade him to a team wanting salary relief.

    My point being, if that type of scenario is correct, there could be some sticky situations arise IF Reggie was expecting 6 mil this year from the Pacers as part of a handshake deal. Plus he'd then be expected to retire 'officially' (file the papers) from a team other than the Pacers.

    I doubt anyone would claim Reggie from the waiver wire BUT especially if there were some backdoor shenanigans going on with his contract it might not be a gamble the team would want to take. It might not even be a gamble they'd want to take for PR reasons of Reggie being a Pacer his entire career.


    -Bball
    as weve discussed before....until the final cba is ratified and all the details are released we wont know exactly how things work...

    but keep in mind this amnesty provision is something new...

    and more than likely will have its own parameters....and it will probably be a combination of waiving a player, an outright cutting of a player, and a player whose contract expires....

    i would be surprised if the normal waiver procedure is used...meaning they have to clear waivers....i dont think the players association would have ever agreed to that....

    it would seem when these players are released, they are instantly free agents...meaning they may then choose to play for whomever they please...

    to me , the big question is with regard to compensation with regard these players...

    are they free agents, free to go to the highest bidder???

    if so, is there any limit of how high this bidding can go?

    if so, how does this amount affect the previous team?? their cap situation??

    or will the compensation be a set amount (vet min for example)??

    if so, how is the previous team affected(im guessing in no way)??

    does the player collect his whole salary from the previous team plus the vet min from new team? (im guessing this is the most likely scenario)

    is there a new compensation scenario for these players....

    it would certainly seem that these players would have some options, if they are indeed released.....the question is do they have more options than just choosing the team they want to play for....by using the waiver system that is currently in place, it is feasible that these players would be forced to play for someone they dont want to-which is why i dont believe there is anyway that will be utilized....

    the players will become free agents....with the only real question being what kind of compensation they are entitled to by their new team and how that affects the previous team....

    which means, in reggies case, he could be waived under this new provision, and continue to be paid by the pacers, and unless he chose to play somewhere else, there would be nothing more to it....with one small exception, he wouldnt be able to return this coming season, as some have discussed-though not likely anyway...

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    I still think Rick would go ape-**** if Croshere is cut. He might be the only "coachable" guy on this team.

    Who did Rick bring with him to the press conference after the suspensions last season? Austin and Reggie.

    Since Foster needed a second surgery on his hip, pardon me for not immediately buying into the company line that "all will be fine come training camp." Croshere could still be a valuable reserve for this team at two positions.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    as weve discussed before....until the final cba is ratified and all the details are released we wont know exactly how things work...

    but keep in mind this amnesty provision is something new...

    and more than likely will have its own parameters....and it will probably be a combination of waiving a player, an outright cutting of a player, and a player whose contract expires....

    i would be surprised if the normal waiver procedure is used...meaning they have to clear waivers....i dont think the players association would have ever agreed to that....
    ...which all underscores my point... There may be a lot of variables involved that would make Reggie not an attractive option to be the one released under this amnesty program.

    It all depends on how it shakes out.

    With Cro and Bender it would be a straighforward choice. With Reggie you have to consider other implications which could include any wink and nod agreements they had about this year's salary plus if the new system could create any PR difficulties for Reggie officially retiring as a Pacer.

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  21. #21
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    ...which all underscores my point... There may be a lot of variables involved that would make Reggie not an attractive option to be the one released under this amnesty program.

    It all depends on how it shakes out.

    With Cro and Bender it would be a straighforward choice. With Reggie you have to consider other implications which could include any wink and nod agreements they had about this year's salary plus if the new system could create any PR difficulties for Reggie officially retiring as a Pacer.

    -Bball

    and thankfully we should have those details in the not so distant future...however odds are, if the pacers are going to release a player, it might be quite some time before they do so....meaning we will be in suspense for a while longer...and can have these discussions for months to come, only with more of the parameters in place....

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Who did Rick bring with him to the press conference after the suspensions last season? Austin and Reggie.
    Dude, at the time we only had 6 people on the team.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
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    Dude, at the time we only had 6 people on the team.

    Well, true. Reggie wasn't even "on the team" for that matter.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
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    Dude, at the time we only had 6 people on the team.
    Austin was a team captain btw, either at that point or shortly after.

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    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan
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    Austin was a team captain btw, either at that point or shortly after.
    That's my point. Nobody in the organization wants to "get rid" of Croshere. They may decide to make a financial decision and let him go, and they undoubtedly they wish, as an organization, they were paying him less. But he's still a contributor with both his basketball abilities (when healthy, in the right role), and most importantly, with all the intangibles (coachable, gets along well with his teammates, willing to play hurt, doesn't complain about his role, always a winner, tends to step up when the pressure is on, etc.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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