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Thread: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

  1. #26
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I'm not trying to be a smart *** about this but I have to ask.

    How do you force people to get along? Wouldn't it take a mutual agreement by them to get along?

    How do you force it???

    You tell them that is their job to get along (on the court, I don't care about off the court) Everyone is depending on you two to get along, the city, coaches, front office, teammates, PD forum. If needed you tell them we aren't trading either of you so you might as well make the most of it.

  2. #27
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    im not sure where it is we are getting, but we both know why ron didnt play that game
    Because Artest quit on the team. Subsequently JO fueded with him over the issue including the lockerroom incident already mentioned.

    Is this the 'clean slate' you referred to?

    -Bball
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  3. #28
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Because Artest quit on the team. Subsequently JO fueded with him over the issue including the lockerroom incident already mentioned.

    Is this the 'clean slate' you referred to?

    -Bball

    its my opinion that they did start off the season with a clean slate...

    yes, and the ron threw a monkey wrench into things....with his little detour...

    prior to the detour, they looked very good...

    following that detour, they looked very good...losing only the ot game to philly in philly if my memory serves me correctly...

    its not always going to be a bed of roses...not unlike a family, there will be situations that come up that have to be overcome, no matter who is at fault

    the key is whether u are together or not....if u are u get past these things together and move on...and are better for them....

    im not so naive that there will not be disagreements or problems...in fact i hope there are...if theres not, then i would question peoples desire...

    the key is how u handle these when they come up....as was stated back then, it was dealt with, internally and people moved on...i have a feeling everyone learned from that situation....

    im not really what ur point is ur trying to drive at....if its that there was a problem early in the season...we all know that..and we know what it was...and who was responsible...

  4. #29
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    You tell them that is their job to get along (on the court, I don't care about off the court) Everyone is depending on you two to get along, the city, coaches, front office, teammates, PD forum. If needed you tell them we aren't trading either of you so you might as well make the most of it.
    im not sure that forcing it is the word i would use, but..

    finding a way so that everyone involved can gain the right appreciation for what the real priorities are....finding some sort of common ground...and being able to agree on said priorities and then finding a way to work towards a common goal...

    i think everyone has a much deeper appreciation for each other and what is at stake after all that transpired last year...

  5. #30
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Really the botton line is that if either are traded for a player other than a top 15 player then it will be a bad trade. I would argue it needs to be a top 10 player.

    Someone name for me the last good trade involving a top 10 player or even a top 15 player.

    The Lakers killed their franchise when they traded Shaq.

    When the Suns traded Kidd it took them what 4 years to recover and only then when they got lucky and acquired Nash.

    The fact of the matter is very few top 10 players are ever traded. I realize we can argue about who is top 10 or 15 and who isn't. But if a team has one of those top 10 players I don't think they ever should be traded unless you get another top 10 player in return.

    Besides Shaq and Kidd none of the others have been traded.

  6. #31
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I'm not trying to be a smart *** about this but I have to ask.

    How do you force people to get along? Wouldn't it take a mutual agreement by them to get along?

    How do you force it???
    I don't know, but if somebody figures it out, can we use it on foretaz and Kstat?

    Probably not, since the root of their respective problems are different. I don't see any sexual tension between JO and Ronnie.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  7. #32
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    JO Was gonna go into the stands for ron 2 but was held back. They still go to war for each other...so who cares?
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

  8. #33
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Really the botton line is that if either are traded for a player other than a top 15 player then it will be a bad trade. I would argue it needs to be a top 10 player.

    Someone name for me the last good trade involving a top 10 player or even a top 15 player.

    The Lakers killed their franchise when they traded Shaq.

    When the Suns traded Kidd it took them what 4 years to recover and only then when they got lucky and acquired Nash.

    The fact of the matter is very few top 10 players are ever traded. I realize we can argue about who is top 10 or 15 and who isn't. But if a team has one of those top 10 players I don't think they ever should be traded unless you get another top 10 player in return.

    Besides Shaq and Kidd none of the others have been traded.
    You know I like Ron, and I don't want to start a "trade Ron for a box of kleenex" ruckus, but I don't think trading Ron would kill us. Trading JO would, but I think we'd get by without Ron.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  9. #34
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    You know I like Ron, and I don't want to start a "trade Ron for a box of kleenex" ruckus, but I don't think trading Ron would kill us. Trading JO would, but I think we'd get by without Ron.

    May not kill us but there is not a championship in our future. It would take two or three years to re-tool.

  10. #35
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    You know I like Ron, and I don't want to start a "trade Ron for a box of kleenex" ruckus, but I don't think trading Ron would kill us. Trading JO would, but I think we'd get by without Ron.
    if 'getting by' was all that was desired, then im sure i would agree...given the goal is winning a title, i dont believe trading ron and what we would get in return would enable us to do that....

    and i would probably have some doubts regarding being able to win a title trading jo as well....

    thats why i say, to win the title, ur gonna need the both of them....and them finding a way to coexist...

  11. #36
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    now back on topic....

    i do believe jo's marching orders following the season were to do some soul searching and decide if he would do whatever it takes to insure the two of them are able to work together....and bird believes he can do that...and we all hope that he will

    however, if he cannot or will not...then i expect bird wants that decision prior to training camp....and then bird will look to make a trade prior to the season...

    i would expect them to target whomever they want to replace jo, whether it be kg, brand, chandler or whomever....then call and attempt to trade artest for that guy, knowing full well that wont get it done and things will eventually lead to jo....

    so any leaks will be that artest is being shopped-which probably wouldnt come as a huge surprise......and a jo deal will go down and all will be shocked...

  12. #37
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i was referring primarily to the start they had gotten the team off to...the two of them were playing at a very high level...until that fateful evening...
    You're confusing on-court success with a long-brewing off-court disaster.

    Ron finished the previous season blaming the coaches for making JO the #1 priority in Game #6 of the ECFs. Remember, Ron took that stupid 35-footer with lots of time on the shotclock while JO was setting a screen for Reggie, and Ron tried to dunk on four Pistons while Rick screamed at him to give the ball to JO. Then Ron told the press right after the game that the Pacers might've won if he had the ball more. What the **** did he want to do, take even more bad shots than the two he took??

    You like to dodge the fact that several of us said that night that it was the last straw, and Ron's done nothing to make it better since then, unless you consider quitting on the team, and having multiple altercations with the team's max-contract leader/ franchise player to be a good thing?

    Ron followed that up by declaring himself to be the team's MVP last summer. At least, to his credit, he then backpeddled and said the team had two MVPs. Not sure what that means, but whatever.

    The problems between JO and Ron have been brewing since before Rick got here. And Rick's had to deal with Ron publicly complaining about the offense, benched him for conduct detrimental to winning two seasons ago and made Ron sit out for two of the nine games he was eligible for last season.

    UncleBuck just wants them to get along on the court. I think he says that because he knows that JO and Rick just can't stand Ron - in part because they can't trust him to stay focuses and in part because Ron refuses to accept his role as JO's second-banana, even though they appreciate his talent. Maybe they could all find a way to put all that behind them and focus on getting along on-the-court, but Ron's got to earn their trust. For many of us, the only surprise in Austin's comments to the New York Times was that somebody actually said what was on their mind instead of the politically-correct B.S. we've come to expect.

    If Rick and JO despise Ron, its hard to blame them. Ron's been bad for team chemistry, period. There's no other way around that, and even UncleBuck will admit it (just about everyone on here but Suaveness will admit it.) I wouldn't blame Bird for saying to JO - "You've got to try harder to accept Ron." But if something else happens and the feud continues, I seriously doubt that Bird would be blaming JO, privately.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #38
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...


  14. #39
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    ron for mvp....
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

  15. #40
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    1) Like you can talk.

    2) You don't have much to say here because even the most ardent, yet logically grounded, Artest supporters take the position that his talent is "just too good" and because of that "the chemistry problems don't matter."

    And that's a fine position to take if you like to see great basketball in November and December, and then watch the team fail to fulfill its promise in the spring.

    But to just pretend that things were fine at the beginning of the season because (1) that's what you'd like to believe, and (2) the team happened to play well in the six games that JO and Ron played together in (and played well in the one game JO missed due to injury, and played well in the first game Ron was suspended/ benched from), well that's laughable case of ignoring the facts to make a weak case. Seeing as how Ron had already gotten himself benched/suspended for two games in an incident that actually bothers many of us much more than the other thing that happend at the end of Game #9.

    The last I checked, the NBA doesn't measure for rings during November, or the Pacers might have a few "championships" by now. Even Dick Versace once got the Pacers off to a hot start in November, only to finish 0.500. As did Isiah, before that team came unglued. Way too much emphasis is put on the first nine games of last season.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #41
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...


  17. #42
    Tim
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    ... which guy do you think Bird would side with, and which do you think he would look to trade?

    I've always thought if the two of them could never get along, that Artest would be dumped in a hurry. Lately, though, I'm not as convinced that Larry thinks the same way.
    Assuming both are healthy, its a no brainer you keep the big man.

    I don't know why some folks are so down on JO, currently the only big men better than JO are Shaq, Tim and KG.

    Ron played a leading role in Chicago and they still lost a lot (yeah he was young but he didn't show the Bulls enough to keep him).

    JO might not be perfect but I think it would be a long time before we would find a big man his equal that would be willing to sign with the Pacers long term. I think we are fortunate to have him.

  18. #43
    Tim
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    Artest's skillset is unique and irreplacable. Nobody in the league combines his defense, post game, perimeter game, and aggression. Nobody. Whether or not it's a bad thing is debatable though.

    JO is an above average post player, but he isn't totally unique as a player. There are guys better than him at what he does.
    Outside of Shaq, Tim and KG who would you replace him with?

    Brand? He isn't a 7 footer and what does he do significantly better than JO other then never having a controversial opinion.

    Amare? Like he would ever set foot here, and JO's post game is farther along. Amare's game needs a significant amount of running, without Tinsley on the floor we are not going to run that much.

    Who else? Ben or Sheed? Well Ben is great unless you want consistent offense out of him. And Sheed, well like Ben I would like what I would get on defense but the Pacers do want an offensive big man down low and Sheed some games decides he doesn't want to be in the post.

  19. #44
    Tim
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I know what I'd do, (well, all of you do), but you could certainly get more for JO than Ron. And you'd need to. JO can dominate the low post at each end of the court, but so many of you take that skill for granted as if those players grow on trees.

    The key, though, is Ron. Would whichever low post superstar you got in return for JO get along with Ron, either?

    Very well said.

  20. #45
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    Because you never rant on here, right?

    When someone gives you a well thought out reply like Jay did, and all you can respond with is smartass smilies such as "blah blah" and "beating a dead horse", you lose credibility. You rant just as much as anyone else does, if notand since Jay disagrees with you, you brush his post off like it's just a bunch of meaningless ranting.

    "Beating a Horse" is continually talking about an issue(Brad Miller for example) that really doesn't matter anymore. There's nothing we can do about Brad Miller being gone, so when people like myself complain about the trade....that's beating a dead horse.

    I don't understand how talking about Ron's issues is beating a dead horse. Anything to do with Ron's past few seasons is very relavent to where the Pacers are right now. Ron's actions were very relavant to the team, and they're a great concern to many fans, including myself.

    I know, I know, Ron's a great talent. Those problems he caused shouldn't matter, because when he was playing this season, we beat teams in meaningless November games.

    I would much rather have a player that is concerned with team basketball than a player that is a "great talent" but is a constant distraction to the team. I get the impression around here that the Pacers are eternally damned if Ron Artest isn't on the team next season. If the Pacers could just get a decent player for him that is concerned with team basketball, I'd be just fine.

    Judging by your response to Jay, feuding with the max contract player, quitting on the team......etc don't matter at all and shouldn't be of concern to anyone.

  21. #46
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Really the botton line is that if either are traded for a player other than a top 15 player then it will be a bad trade. I would argue it needs to be a top 10 player.

    Someone name for me the last good trade involving a top 10 player or even a top 15 player.

    The Lakers killed their franchise when they traded Shaq.

    When the Suns traded Kidd it took them what 4 years to recover and only then when they got lucky and acquired Nash.

    The fact of the matter is very few top 10 players are ever traded. I realize we can argue about who is top 10 or 15 and who isn't. But if a team has one of those top 10 players I don't think they ever should be traded unless you get another top 10 player in return.

    Besides Shaq and Kidd none of the others have been traded.

    Are you comparing the importance of Ron Artest to that of Shaquille O'Neal and Jason Kidd? The Pacers could survive without Ron Artest. The Pacers w/Artest lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2004, with a gimpy JO and JT. The Pacers lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2005 w/o Ron, and had a gimpy JO and JT.

    I just don't buy that Ron is the key to a championship. The Pacers would be better off with a player who is concerned more with the overall team than his ego.

    Ron is hardly a top 10 player

    Shaq
    Duncan
    Kg
    Kidd
    Wade
    Lebron
    Dirk
    Kobe
    Nash
    Amare
    JO
    Tmac
    Brand

    Ron may be a better skill than some of these players, but you can count on any of those players more than you can Ron......and that's more important in my book.

  22. #47
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    I would trade JO for Garnett. Other than that, no.
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  23. #48

    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    And we have a frontrunner for most ironic post of the year.

    As to the topic big men are always taken for granted in this league. Unless we are dreaming of a Pollard/Foster middle, or even if we get a Kmart in the trade, we are being unrealistic in thinking that the team can win a championship in the near future by trading O"neal.

  24. #49
    Member SycamoreKen's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
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    Assuming both are healthy, its a no brainer you keep the big man.

    I don't know why some folks are so down on JO, currently the only big men better than JO are Shaq, Tim and KG.

    Ron played a leading role in Chicago and they still lost a lot (yeah he was young but he didn't show the Bulls enough to keep him).

    JO might not be perfect but I think it would be a long time before we would find a big man his equal that would be willing to sign with the Pacers long term. I think we are fortunate to have him.
    I agree with Tim. If the two can't play together then I would trade Ron. Unless you are building your team around a "small" that is the best player to ever play the game, then you won't win a title taking a great small over a great big. With Jack, Tins, and Saurawhatever, we could replace Ron with another very good wing and still do well.

    I hope this is just another what if discussion.

  25. #50
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Because you never rant on here, right?

    When someone gives you a well thought out reply like Jay did, and all you can respond with is smartass smilies such as "blah blah" and "beating a dead horse", you lose credibility. You rant just as much as anyone else does, if notand since Jay disagrees with you, you brush his post off like it's just a bunch of meaningless ranting.

    "Beating a Horse" is continually talking about an issue(Brad Miller for example) that really doesn't matter anymore. There's nothing we can do about Brad Miller being gone, so when people like myself complain about the trade....that's beating a dead horse.

    I don't understand how talking about Ron's issues is beating a dead horse. Anything to do with Ron's past few seasons is very relavent to where the Pacers are right now. Ron's actions were very relavant to the team, and they're a great concern to many fans, including myself.

    I know, I know, Ron's a great talent. Those problems he caused shouldn't matter, because when he was playing this season, we beat teams in meaningless November games.

    I would much rather have a player that is concerned with team basketball than a player that is a "great talent" but is a constant distraction to the team. I get the impression around here that the Pacers are eternally damned if Ron Artest isn't on the team next season. If the Pacers could just get a decent player for him that is concerned with team basketball, I'd be just fine.

    Judging by your response to Jay, feuding with the max contract player, quitting on the team......etc don't matter at all and shouldn't be of concern to anyone.
    so i guess ur acknowledging that jay was ranting....we agree...

    ive made my feelings known on the subject....and in this case the subject he was addressing and what was being discussed were two different things...

    since im not that interested in being baited into an argument that serves no purpose....i responded in the manner i felt appropriate....

    when i have a viewpoint i feel is worthwhile, ill state it along with the facts that i feel are relevant...the same holds true if someone disagrees with me....

    in this case jay wasnt really disagreeing with me as much as he was just using the opportunity to restate his feelings on things, while apparently trying to bait me....as stated, i have no interest in that....

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