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Thread: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    ... which guy do you think Bird would side with, and which do you think he would look to trade?

    I've always thought if the two of them could never get along, that Artest would be dumped in a hurry. Lately, though, I'm not as convinced that Larry thinks the same way.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Well considering J.O would get a lot more in return, they should trade J.O. But I say they need to keep both, force them to get along or go down trying to force them. In other words we have a long way to go before we must trade one or the other. At least for the issue you bring up

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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    UB's right, JO would bring alot more. But I don't know if that would make our team better.

    As transcendant a player like Ron may be, we've still got Jack and Danny to take up the slack of losing him. If we traded Jermaine and didn't get a franchise-caliber big man in return, we'd be dead.
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Larry would side with Ron cause he is in love with him. Ron can do no wrong while everything JO does is wrong.

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac
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    Larry would side with Ron cause he is in love with him. Ron can do no wrong while everything JO does is wrong.
    WHU?

    I'm sorry, but I don't see where you're getting this from. Could you offer a little more explanation so that I can understand?

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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac
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    Larry would side with Ron cause he is in love with him. Ron can do no wrong while everything JO does is wrong.
    Paranoid much?
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    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Artest's skillset is unique and irreplacable. Nobody in the league combines his defense, post game, perimeter game, and aggression. Nobody. Whether or not it's a bad thing is debatable though.

    JO is an above average post player, but he isn't totally unique as a player. There are guys better than him at what he does.

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    On the topic:

    Soup's wording of the question is kind of like the wording of this question: "Answer yes or no: do you still beat your wife?" The question is loaded with reasons built inside. Answering it means that you agree with the underlying premise.

    I don't agree that trading either of our stars would be an act of favoritism. I think that if either of them were traded, it would be about the future of the franchise and the talents we would need on the floor to compete.

    Using history as a guide, I would only assume that Larry and Donnie would want to flex thier "talent scout" muscles and gain several young guys in exchange for a mid-carreer, max-contract, big numbers player. I think of the Jalen Rose deal when I lean towards Jermaine as the 60% favorite to go.

    NOW - does that mean that I believe that EITHER of them should go? For the time being, I'd stick with what we've got. At the first sign of trouble, be it a lose streak or continued behind-the-scenes conflicts, I'd start answering the phone. After that, you take the best deal you could get.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    On the topic:

    Soup's wording of the question is kind of like the wording of this question: "Answer yes or no: do you still beat your wife?" The question is loaded with reasons built inside. Answering it means that you agree with the underlying premise.



    The premise was that one of them would have to go. You can answer the question and still believe we should keep both.

    Seeing as how Bird is the GM, he would have to pick between one or another. What is so loaded about that?
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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    ... which guy do you think Bird would side with, and which do you think he would look to trade?

    I've always thought if the two of them could never get along, that Artest would be dumped in a hurry. Lately, though, I'm not as convinced that Larry thinks the same way.
    Sorry, soup. I didn't mean to sound so critical.

    I've put in bold what I thought was loaded: That a trade would result from rivalry and that bird would take a side in the rivalry.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    Sorry, soup. I didn't mean to sound so critical.

    I've put in bold what I thought was loaded: That a trade would result from rivalry and that bird would take a side in the rivalry.
    I see. Maybe 'side with' wasn't the best way of putting it.
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    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    I ususally would have said ronnie. But I think I'd take JO out the door. he seems to dissapear in the playoffs and I just hate his constant thinking of "I'm the man" so he shoots all these stupid shots.
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    It seems to me JO and Artest don't complement each others games too well. I would vote that JO would go b/c Bird can't see JO's temperament or personality or whatever leading this team to the championship. Larry Bird probably also has the common GM idea that he can change the troubled but talented Artest.
    "If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy

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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    WHU?

    I'm sorry, but I don't see where you're getting this from. Could you offer a little more explanation so that I can understand?
    Go read everything Larry Bird says about JO and Ron.

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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    I know what I'd do, (well, all of you do), but you could certainly get more for JO than Ron. And you'd need to. JO can dominate the low post at each end of the court, but so many of you take that skill for granted as if those players grow on trees.

    The key, though, is Ron. Would whichever low post superstar you got in return for JO get along with Ron, either?
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    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I know what I'd do, (well, all of you do), but you could certainly get more for JO than Ron. And you'd need to. JO can dominate the low post at each end of the court, but so many of you take that skill for granted as if those players grow on trees.

    The key, though, is Ron. Would whichever low post superstar you got in return for JO get along with Ron, either?

    given everything that has happened...quite possibly so....thats why the real issue is can the past be put in the past and the two of them move on...

    if not, someone that comes in and there is a clean slate between ron and that new player, well things could probably go quite well...

    lets hope jo and ron can find a way to start with a clean slate....much like they were doing before nov 19...and i think the events that evening will only help them come together more...at least i hope..

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    lets hope jo and ron can find a way to start with a clean slate....much like they were doing before nov 19...and i think the events that evening will only help them come together more...at least i hope..
    They were??? Do you mean immediately before that and not from the start of the season? Because I was under the impression they had a pretty heated run-in or two that was JO throwing out of, or refusing Ron entry into, the lockerroom just a few days prior to the Mow Down in Motown.

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    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    They were??? Do you mean immediately before that and not from the start of the season? Because I was under the impression they had a pretty heated run-in or two that was JO throwing out of, or refusing Ron entry into, the lockerroom just a few days prior to the Mow Down in Motown.

    -Bball

    i was referring primarily to the start they had gotten the team off to...the two of them were playing at a very high level...until that fateful evening...

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Well considering J.O would get a lot more in return, they should trade J.O. But I say they need to keep both, force them to get along or go down trying to force them. In other words we have a long way to go before we must trade one or the other. At least for the issue you bring up
    I'm not trying to be a smart *** about this but I have to ask.

    How do you force people to get along? Wouldn't it take a mutual agreement by them to get along?

    How do you force it???


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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i was referring primarily to the start they had gotten the team off to...the two of them were playing at a very high level...until that fateful evening...
    They weren't at a high level for that early season Clippers game. And that was just prior to some 'activity' between JO and Artest. And that was obviously early early in the year. If they were already feuding do you think they could've put that aside for the entire season?

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    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    They weren't at a high level for that early season Clippers game. And that was just prior to some 'activity' between JO and Artest. And that was obviously early early in the year. If they were already feuding do you think they could've put that aside for the entire season?

    -Bball
    ron didnt play that game....

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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    ron didnt play that game....
    We're getting somewhere now....
    And why didn't Ron play in that game?

    -Bball
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    foretaz
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    We're getting somewhere now....
    And why didn't Ron play in that game?

    -Bball
    im not sure where it is we are getting, but we both know why ron didnt play that game

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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    I would have to side with sending J.O. down the highway if that came to a head. I think you could get a decent deal for J.O. but not a blockbuster deal. Face it, around the league J.O. isn't held in the same super star rank as Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett so you couldn't expect to get a player of that caliber without selling your soul as sweetner to get the deal to go thru. I just think J.O. has to be in the Finals to get that bump to super star status.

    The whole world knows Ronnie's baggage and will just by nature try to bend the Pacers over the table in any Artest deal. No matter now or months to years from now. The second a team actually is serious and ponies up a fair offer for Artest...I think that he will be seriously considered for trade. Till then, J.O. has more value in a deal if the Pacers are looking to make the deal!

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If either Artest or O'Neal had to go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious Tyrant
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    It seems to me JO and Artest don't complement each others games too well.

    Now there I disagree. As Rick Carlisle said on his radio show last season, J.O and Artest form a Shaq like dominance when they are on the court together.

    I think they fit together just fine. Ron provides the physicalness than J.O lacks, defensively they complement each other very well, and offensively, they take turns punishing the opponents.

    One thing to keep in mind. It is very rare, extremely rare to have your two best players be your two best offensive players and your two best (probably) defensive players.


    So I say you exhaust every avenue every possibility of getting J.O and Ron to play together. We are no where near the point where we've tried everything.

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