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    Default Re: Article Request

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/colum...=2113841&num=3

    Chad Ford:
    "Stars aren't made in the NBA's summer leagues, but we did learn a few things in the last three weeks.

    First, a caveat: When judging players, take summer league performances with a grain of salt.

    Success in the summer leagues isn't a very accurate predictor of who will become an NBA star. While in previous summers LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Al Jefferson and Marquis Daniels gave us early signs that they were ready to have breakout years, players such as Qyntel Woods, Willie Green, John Salmons and Zarko Cabarkapa have also dominated in these leagues.

    A more accurate predictor is summer league failure. Nine times out of 10, it seems, if a player can't produce against the watered-down competition in the summer leagues, he'll struggle mightily to get it done against real NBA players during the season. But even that is only a short-term prediction, not a long-term one.

    This year, the NBA held four summer leagues across the country -- the Reebok Vegas Summer League, the Minnesota Summer League, the Southern California Summer Pro League in Los Angeles and the Reebok Rocky Mountain Revue in Salt Lake City.

    Who played well? Who bombed out? Insider talked to a number of NBA scouts and executives during the week to get you the skinny. Here's what the NBA Boys of Summer were up to in July.


    Summer Studs
    Nate Robinson, G, Knicks
    Stats: 17.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg in the Vegas Summer League
    Stats: 15.2 ppg, 5.8 apg at the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Robinson was the most exciting player on the floor for two straight weeks and had scouts walking away convinced that he could be an instant impact player in the league. His speed and intensity can overcome any size limitations.

    In fact, scouts in Minnesota said he started to show that he could distribute the ball. Still, make no mistake, Robinson is a scorer -- much like the Bulls' Ben Gordon, Robinson's job will be to jump-start the offense (and the crowd) whenever he enters the game.

    I still can't get over the fact that the Suns traded him. He would be perfect -- perfect -- in Phoenix.

    Ike Diogu, PF, Warriors
    Stats: 18.4 ppg, 8.4 rpg in the Reebok Vegas Summer Shootout
    The skinny: The questions about whether Diogu has the size or skills to play the four in the NBA are quickly dissipating. He started off the summer slowly and finished with a flurry, dropping 37 points and 12 rebounds on the last day.

    He looks more and more like the second coming of Elton Brand.

    Hakim Warrick, F, Grizzlies
    Stats: 18.6 ppg, 8.2 rpg on 54 percent shooting at the Southern California Summer Pro League
    The skinny: Warrick was a college stud who slipped a bit in the draft because no one knew for sure what position he'd play in the NBA. That's still not settled after seven games, but the Grizzlies believe they have a versatile player who's going to find a way to get the ball in the basket and grab rebounds.

    The odd thing is that Warrick's athleticism doesn't translate into blocked shots. He blocked zero shots in seven games for Memphis.

    Chris Paul, PG, Hornets
    Stats: 15.3 ppg, 5.5 apg, 4.7 apg in the Vegas Summer League
    The skinny: Paul got off to a red-hot start (21 points, five assists, four rebounds against the Cavs and 12 points, nine assists vs. the Wizards) before a minor injury ended up slowing him down for the rest of the camp.

    The consensus among summer league scouts is that Paul will be the leading candidate for Rookie of the Year.


    Andrew Bogut, C, Bucks
    Stats: 13.2 ppg, 10 rpg, 1.4 bpg in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Bogut had an up-and-down week.

    He was outplayed by the trio of Dwayne Jones, Nick Horvath and David Simon in the first game and finished with just seven points. Then Bogut was dominated in the paint by David Harrison, the Pacers' second-year center, showing he had neither the strength nor the quickness to guard an NBA player in the paint.

    All that said, Bogut definitely had his moments. He was great in games against the Rockets, Raptors and Knicks. He showed tenacity on the boards, patience on the offensive end and an ability for moving the ball out of the post.

    The talent is there, but questions remain about whether he's physically ready to come in and play center in the NBA.


    SLEEPER: Andrew Bynum, C, Lakers
    Stats: 10.6 ppg, 7.5 rpg at the Southern California Summer Pro League
    The skinny: No one was expecting anything from Bynum for at least two years, but he played as though he belonged in his first seven games.

    He has soft hands and great size, and he runs the floor pretty well. Bynum was out of shape and needs to get stronger, but he was much more skilled than most scouts thought.

    It doesn't mean he'll get a sniff of playing time in L.A. next season, but it looks like the Lakers may have a keeper.

    Honorable Mention: Wayne Simien, PF, Heat (17.1 ppg, 7 rpg); Sean May, PF, Bobcats (14.8 ppg, 8.4 rpg); Channing Frye, C, Knicks (13.8 ppg, 5 rpg); David Lee, PF, Knicks (12 ppg, 6.2 rpg); Jason Maxiell, PF, Pistons (15 ppg, 3.6 rpg); Linas Kleiza, F, Nuggets (15.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg); Eddie Basden, G/F, Bulls (14 ppg, 5 rpg); Lawrence Roberts, PF, Grizzlies (13.6 ppg, 11.7 rpg); Alex Acker, G, Pistons (14.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg); Ryan Gomes, F, Celtics (12.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg); Monta Ellis, G, Warriors (15.8 ppg, 3 rpg); Antoine Wright, G, Nets (16.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg); Raymond Felton, PG, Bobcats (12.5 ppg, 5.5 apg); Julius Hodge, G, Nuggets (13.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg); Martell Webster, G, Blazers (12.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg).


    Breakout Performers

    Travis Outlaw, F, Blazers
    Stats: 18.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg in the Reebok Vegas Summer Shootout
    The skinny: Outlaw looked last summer as though he was going to be one of the few high school-to-pros busts. However, some good playing time toward the end of last season seems to have bolstered his confidence.

    Armed with a nice mid-range jumper, a ton of athleticism and great energy, Outlaw was definitely the surprise player in Vegas. Within days, GM John Nash said he was getting phone calls from teams offering first-round picks for Outlaw. But the Blazers would prefer to move Darius Miles and put Outlaw on the floor more this season.

    Chris Kaman, C, Clippers
    Stats: 20.2 ppg, 8.6 rpg in the Vegas Summer Pro League
    The skinny: If the Clippers are going to make a serious push for the playoffs next season, some of the responsibility is going to rest firmly on Kaman's shoulders. Elton Brand and Corey Maggette will deliver. Shaun Livingston has great promise at the point. And Cuttino Mobley will improve the team's shooting. But they need more help in the middle and Kaman showed in Vegas that he's capable of delivering -- at least against summer leaguers.
    Sebastian Telfair, PG, Blazers
    Stats: 18.7 ppg, 6 apg in the Vegas Summer Pro League
    The skinny: I wasn't a fan of Telfair last summer and still have my reservations about him, but it's tough to deny that he continues to improve. His court vision is excellent and he has a knack for getting to the rim. His jump shot is as ugly as ever, but if he can push the ball and keep turnovers down, he's got a chance to be special.

    Kevin Martin, G, Kings
    Stats: 19.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg on 47 percent shooting
    The skinny: The Kings have spent the summer (and another draft pick on Francisco Garcia) trying to find a replacement for Cuttino Mobley this summer. After Martin's excellent summer league performance, have they found him?

    Martin was also awesome last summer, but he didn't score with this efficiency or with this accuracy (41 percent) from 3-point country. Though his relative lack of strength still makes him a defensive liability, he's an awesome scorer.

    Lonny Baxter, F/C, Rockets
    Stats: 21 ppg, 6.2 rpg on 59 percent shooting in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Baxter's another summer league warrior who never quite gets the minutes he needs to produce in the NBA. The Rockets love his ability to score around the basket, but with Stromile Swift set to join the team this fall, will Baxter ever catch a break?


    SLEEPER: Nikoloz Tskitishvili, F, Timberwolves
    Stats: 13.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Skita was awesome in the first game, scoring 25 points, grabbing 10 rebounds, and shooting 4-for-5 from 3-point land, all in 17 minutes. Unfortunately, he broke his hand nine minutes into the next game and missed the rest of the summer league.

    But his performance was impressive enough that the Wolves and Skita agreed to a free-agent contract late Thursday night. Still, before the Dirk comparisons begin again, it's important to point out that Skita put on a show in Vegas last year as well, leading all scorers with 25.7 ppg and shooting lights out from behind the 3-point line.

    Honorable Mention: Dwight Howard, PF, Magic (19 ppg, 7.5 rpg); J.R. Smith, SG, Hornets (20.6 ppg); Tony Allen, G, Celtics (16.8 ppg); David Harrison, C, Pacers (14.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg); Luke Jackson, G/F, Cavs (11.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4 apg); Matt Carroll, G/F, Bobcats (15.4 ppg); Britton Johnsen, F, Spurs (15.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg); Dion Glover, G, Rockets (18.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg); Josh Powell, F, Mavs (11.2 ppg, 9.8 rpg); Leandro Barbosa, G, Suns (18 ppg); Olumide Oyedeji, PF, Cavs (9.6 ppg, 7 rpg); Maciej Lampe, C, Hornets (11.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg); Andris Biedrins, C, Warriors (7.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg).


    Summer Duds
    Marvin Williams, F, Hawks
    Stats: 7.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 28 percent shooting in the Rocky Mountain Revue
    The skinny: Williams has been, in a word, awful. That doesn't mean much for his long-term future. As we've said before, the summer league isn't the most accurate predictor of what a player will or won't do in the season.

    But scouts claim that Williams looks tight and often lost on both ends of the floor. That can't be what the Hawks were hoping for from the guy that should be their franchise player.

    I still believe that Williams will end up being the best player in the draft. But he isn't off to a great start.

    Al Jefferson, PF, Celtics
    Stats: 7.5 ppg, 6 rpg in the Vegas Summer League
    The skinny: Jefferson's great summer league performance last season coupled with flashes of brilliance during the season had Celtics fans already clearing out a spot for Jefferson in Springfield. He definitely didn't take another step forward in Vegas. He shot just 44 percent from the field and never did much to impact the games. That's what the Celtics expected from Jefferson last summer, not this one.

    Darko Milicic, PF/C, Pistons
    Stats: 9.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg on 36 percent shooting in the Vegas Summer League
    The skinny: The excuses are about to stop. With Larry Brown out in Detroit, it's now time for Darko to respond.

    We can talk all we want to about rust (he hasn't played in two years) and conditioning (it's tough to keep in shape when you're the towel boy), but the Pistons had to be disappointed in what appeared to be an indifferent effort by Milicic.

    The rust will come off with playing time and the conditioning will improve. But what happened to the aggressive play that convinced the Pistons that Darko was not your typical Euro softie? Darko had flashes when he looked very good, but much of the time he just didn't look like he cared.

    That had better change or Flip Saunders will put him on the same seat on the bench that Larry did.

    Jonathan Bender, F, Pacers
    Stats: 8 ppg, 5 rpg on 25 percent shooting in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Who else is sick of hearing about how awesome Bender's potential is and how great he looks in practice?

    He's always hurt and extremely inconsistent when he is healthy enough to play. He played exactly one lackluster game for the Pacers in Minnesota and his body language was awful. He acted like he didn't want to be there, according to numerous scouts in the building.


    Kirk Snyder, G, Jazz
    Stats: 6 ppg, 1 rebound on 33 percent shooting in the Rocky Mountain Revue
    The skinny: With only one season under his belt, it's too early to call Snyder a bust. But if he keeps playing the way he has in Salt Lake, a monumental bust is exactly what he's going to be.

    Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider."

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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by ILovethePacers
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    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/colum...=2113841&num=3

    Chad Ford:
    "Stars aren't made in the NBA's summer leagues, but we did learn a few things in the last three weeks.

    First, a caveat: When judging players, take summer league performances with a grain of salt.

    Success in the summer leagues isn't a very accurate predictor of who will become an NBA star. While in previous summers LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Al Jefferson and Marquis Daniels gave us early signs that they were ready to have breakout years, players such as Qyntel Woods, Willie Green, John Salmons and Zarko Cabarkapa have also dominated in these leagues.

    A more accurate predictor is summer league failure. Nine times out of 10, it seems, if a player can't produce against the watered-down competition in the summer leagues, he'll struggle mightily to get it done against real NBA players during the season. But even that is only a short-term prediction, not a long-term one.

    This year, the NBA held four summer leagues across the country -- the Reebok Vegas Summer League, the Minnesota Summer League, the Southern California Summer Pro League in Los Angeles and the Reebok Rocky Mountain Revue in Salt Lake City.

    Who played well? Who bombed out? Insider talked to a number of NBA scouts and executives during the week to get you the skinny. Here's what the NBA Boys of Summer were up to in July.


    Summer Studs
    Nate Robinson, G, Knicks
    Stats: 17.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg in the Vegas Summer League
    Stats: 15.2 ppg, 5.8 apg at the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Robinson was the most exciting player on the floor for two straight weeks and had scouts walking away convinced that he could be an instant impact player in the league. His speed and intensity can overcome any size limitations.

    In fact, scouts in Minnesota said he started to show that he could distribute the ball. Still, make no mistake, Robinson is a scorer -- much like the Bulls' Ben Gordon, Robinson's job will be to jump-start the offense (and the crowd) whenever he enters the game.

    I still can't get over the fact that the Suns traded him. He would be perfect -- perfect -- in Phoenix.

    Ike Diogu, PF, Warriors
    Stats: 18.4 ppg, 8.4 rpg in the Reebok Vegas Summer Shootout
    The skinny: The questions about whether Diogu has the size or skills to play the four in the NBA are quickly dissipating. He started off the summer slowly and finished with a flurry, dropping 37 points and 12 rebounds on the last day.

    He looks more and more like the second coming of Elton Brand.

    Hakim Warrick, F, Grizzlies
    Stats: 18.6 ppg, 8.2 rpg on 54 percent shooting at the Southern California Summer Pro League
    The skinny: Warrick was a college stud who slipped a bit in the draft because no one knew for sure what position he'd play in the NBA. That's still not settled after seven games, but the Grizzlies believe they have a versatile player who's going to find a way to get the ball in the basket and grab rebounds.

    The odd thing is that Warrick's athleticism doesn't translate into blocked shots. He blocked zero shots in seven games for Memphis.

    Chris Paul, PG, Hornets
    Stats: 15.3 ppg, 5.5 apg, 4.7 apg in the Vegas Summer League
    The skinny: Paul got off to a red-hot start (21 points, five assists, four rebounds against the Cavs and 12 points, nine assists vs. the Wizards) before a minor injury ended up slowing him down for the rest of the camp.

    The consensus among summer league scouts is that Paul will be the leading candidate for Rookie of the Year.


    Andrew Bogut, C, Bucks
    Stats: 13.2 ppg, 10 rpg, 1.4 bpg in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Bogut had an up-and-down week.

    He was outplayed by the trio of Dwayne Jones, Nick Horvath and David Simon in the first game and finished with just seven points. Then Bogut was dominated in the paint by David Harrison, the Pacers' second-year center, showing he had neither the strength nor the quickness to guard an NBA player in the paint.

    All that said, Bogut definitely had his moments. He was great in games against the Rockets, Raptors and Knicks. He showed tenacity on the boards, patience on the offensive end and an ability for moving the ball out of the post.

    The talent is there, but questions remain about whether he's physically ready to come in and play center in the NBA.


    SLEEPER: Andrew Bynum, C, Lakers
    Stats: 10.6 ppg, 7.5 rpg at the Southern California Summer Pro League
    The skinny: No one was expecting anything from Bynum for at least two years, but he played as though he belonged in his first seven games.

    He has soft hands and great size, and he runs the floor pretty well. Bynum was out of shape and needs to get stronger, but he was much more skilled than most scouts thought.

    It doesn't mean he'll get a sniff of playing time in L.A. next season, but it looks like the Lakers may have a keeper.

    Honorable Mention: Wayne Simien, PF, Heat (17.1 ppg, 7 rpg); Sean May, PF, Bobcats (14.8 ppg, 8.4 rpg); Channing Frye, C, Knicks (13.8 ppg, 5 rpg); David Lee, PF, Knicks (12 ppg, 6.2 rpg); Jason Maxiell, PF, Pistons (15 ppg, 3.6 rpg); Linas Kleiza, F, Nuggets (15.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg); Eddie Basden, G/F, Bulls (14 ppg, 5 rpg); Lawrence Roberts, PF, Grizzlies (13.6 ppg, 11.7 rpg); Alex Acker, G, Pistons (14.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg); Ryan Gomes, F, Celtics (12.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg); Monta Ellis, G, Warriors (15.8 ppg, 3 rpg); Antoine Wright, G, Nets (16.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg); Raymond Felton, PG, Bobcats (12.5 ppg, 5.5 apg); Julius Hodge, G, Nuggets (13.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg); Martell Webster, G, Blazers (12.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg).


    Breakout Performers

    Travis Outlaw, F, Blazers
    Stats: 18.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg in the Reebok Vegas Summer Shootout
    The skinny: Outlaw looked last summer as though he was going to be one of the few high school-to-pros busts. However, some good playing time toward the end of last season seems to have bolstered his confidence.

    Armed with a nice mid-range jumper, a ton of athleticism and great energy, Outlaw was definitely the surprise player in Vegas. Within days, GM John Nash said he was getting phone calls from teams offering first-round picks for Outlaw. But the Blazers would prefer to move Darius Miles and put Outlaw on the floor more this season.

    Chris Kaman, C, Clippers
    Stats: 20.2 ppg, 8.6 rpg in the Vegas Summer Pro League
    The skinny: If the Clippers are going to make a serious push for the playoffs next season, some of the responsibility is going to rest firmly on Kaman's shoulders. Elton Brand and Corey Maggette will deliver. Shaun Livingston has great promise at the point. And Cuttino Mobley will improve the team's shooting. But they need more help in the middle and Kaman showed in Vegas that he's capable of delivering -- at least against summer leaguers.
    Sebastian Telfair, PG, Blazers
    Stats: 18.7 ppg, 6 apg in the Vegas Summer Pro League
    The skinny: I wasn't a fan of Telfair last summer and still have my reservations about him, but it's tough to deny that he continues to improve. His court vision is excellent and he has a knack for getting to the rim. His jump shot is as ugly as ever, but if he can push the ball and keep turnovers down, he's got a chance to be special.

    Kevin Martin, G, Kings
    Stats: 19.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg on 47 percent shooting
    The skinny: The Kings have spent the summer (and another draft pick on Francisco Garcia) trying to find a replacement for Cuttino Mobley this summer. After Martin's excellent summer league performance, have they found him?

    Martin was also awesome last summer, but he didn't score with this efficiency or with this accuracy (41 percent) from 3-point country. Though his relative lack of strength still makes him a defensive liability, he's an awesome scorer.

    Lonny Baxter, F/C, Rockets
    Stats: 21 ppg, 6.2 rpg on 59 percent shooting in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Baxter's another summer league warrior who never quite gets the minutes he needs to produce in the NBA. The Rockets love his ability to score around the basket, but with Stromile Swift set to join the team this fall, will Baxter ever catch a break?


    SLEEPER: Nikoloz Tskitishvili, F, Timberwolves
    Stats: 13.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Skita was awesome in the first game, scoring 25 points, grabbing 10 rebounds, and shooting 4-for-5 from 3-point land, all in 17 minutes. Unfortunately, he broke his hand nine minutes into the next game and missed the rest of the summer league.

    But his performance was impressive enough that the Wolves and Skita agreed to a free-agent contract late Thursday night. Still, before the Dirk comparisons begin again, it's important to point out that Skita put on a show in Vegas last year as well, leading all scorers with 25.7 ppg and shooting lights out from behind the 3-point line.

    Honorable Mention: Dwight Howard, PF, Magic (19 ppg, 7.5 rpg); J.R. Smith, SG, Hornets (20.6 ppg); Tony Allen, G, Celtics (16.8 ppg); David Harrison, C, Pacers (14.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg); Luke Jackson, G/F, Cavs (11.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4 apg); Matt Carroll, G/F, Bobcats (15.4 ppg); Britton Johnsen, F, Spurs (15.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg); Dion Glover, G, Rockets (18.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg); Josh Powell, F, Mavs (11.2 ppg, 9.8 rpg); Leandro Barbosa, G, Suns (18 ppg); Olumide Oyedeji, PF, Cavs (9.6 ppg, 7 rpg); Maciej Lampe, C, Hornets (11.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg); Andris Biedrins, C, Warriors (7.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg).


    Summer Duds
    Marvin Williams, F, Hawks
    Stats: 7.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 28 percent shooting in the Rocky Mountain Revue
    The skinny: Williams has been, in a word, awful. That doesn't mean much for his long-term future. As we've said before, the summer league isn't the most accurate predictor of what a player will or won't do in the season.

    But scouts claim that Williams looks tight and often lost on both ends of the floor. That can't be what the Hawks were hoping for from the guy that should be their franchise player.

    I still believe that Williams will end up being the best player in the draft. But he isn't off to a great start.

    Al Jefferson, PF, Celtics
    Stats: 7.5 ppg, 6 rpg in the Vegas Summer League
    The skinny: Jefferson's great summer league performance last season coupled with flashes of brilliance during the season had Celtics fans already clearing out a spot for Jefferson in Springfield. He definitely didn't take another step forward in Vegas. He shot just 44 percent from the field and never did much to impact the games. That's what the Celtics expected from Jefferson last summer, not this one.

    Darko Milicic, PF/C, Pistons
    Stats: 9.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg on 36 percent shooting in the Vegas Summer League
    The skinny: The excuses are about to stop. With Larry Brown out in Detroit, it's now time for Darko to respond.

    We can talk all we want to about rust (he hasn't played in two years) and conditioning (it's tough to keep in shape when you're the towel boy), but the Pistons had to be disappointed in what appeared to be an indifferent effort by Milicic.

    The rust will come off with playing time and the conditioning will improve. But what happened to the aggressive play that convinced the Pistons that Darko was not your typical Euro softie? Darko had flashes when he looked very good, but much of the time he just didn't look like he cared.

    That had better change or Flip Saunders will put him on the same seat on the bench that Larry did.

    Jonathan Bender, F, Pacers
    Stats: 8 ppg, 5 rpg on 25 percent shooting in the Minnesota Summer League
    The skinny: Who else is sick of hearing about how awesome Bender's potential is and how great he looks in practice?

    He's always hurt and extremely inconsistent when he is healthy enough to play. He played exactly one lackluster game for the Pacers in Minnesota and his body language was awful. He acted like he didn't want to be there, according to numerous scouts in the building.

    Kirk Snyder, G, Jazz
    Stats: 6 ppg, 1 rebound on 33 percent shooting in the Rocky Mountain Revue
    The skinny: With only one season under his belt, it's too early to call Snyder a bust. But if he keeps playing the way he has in Salt Lake, a monumental bust is exactly what he's going to be.

    Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider."

    How many outside sources saying this before some of you beleive what we've been saying for four years?

    He may have injury's but they have never been enough to make it so the guy can't play at all. Bruised shoulder anyone?

    Artest looks better & better every day.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Article Request



    Absolutely ridiculous.

    Why have we not waived Croshere already!?
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    Jesus; I just want the entire Bender ordeal to be over and done with. I have never disliked a Pacer this much...probably because Bender epitomizes everything that I HATE in a basketball player.

    Trade him, cut him, force him to retire! Do whatever it takes Donnie. Just don't have this guy in a Pacers uniform by October.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    How many outside sources saying this before some of you beleive what we've been saying for four years?

    He may have injury's but they have never been enough to make it so the guy can't play at all. Bruised shoulder anyone?

    Artest looks better & better every day.




    Bender, with the injuries, I'm sure has been a bit frustrated, so maybe thats why its hard to give effort if every time you do you get pushed back 2 notches with injuries. I'm not defending the guy though. He, as mentioned, has not willingly come to practice with the coaches, who would actually help him. His lack of effort is irritating.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    His lack of effort is irritating.
    Wait until he finally "breaks out" in the last 6 months of his contract, then demands a "max" deal.
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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Originally I didn't dislike Bender. I just thought he was overhyped and a bad pick. Not what we needed at the time and someone not ready to contribute on a contender. A mistake that was festering and eventually would come to a head. I didn't see any signs of superstar in him and I kept looking for it. The intangibles were just never there. That's the key for me. Not that he could not every so often get to the basket or stroke a three but the drive and desire you see in the better players I just never saw in his eyes or body lanquage.

    And then this past season especially I did really have to question if he couldn't have suited up at times. I have no way of knowing that so it is simply an aside to my feelings on the subject.

    But how many stories do we have to hear and read to see that there is something wrong and he isn't chomping at the bit to get out there and compete? ...to be there for his team... How many summers to he have to do his 'own thing' rather than get to Indy and workout for the staff and with teammates?

    He's a bust of the biggest kind. We purposely sought him, traded a valued player for him (to be in a position to get him in the draft), drafted him higher than need be (which cost us more money), and then overpaid to extend him when we should've cut bait(IMHO) and what does he do? He basically snubs the organization. But he's got his money and he's got some pain. I guess he feels that is enough.

    This stuff is why I wouldn't be totally surprised if he was cut as our amnesty victim that nobody picked him up. There should be plenty of bargains to be had and I'm not sure in a buyer's market if Bender rates anyone else's time.

    Plus you have to think the rest of the league knows that Pacerland is one of the most player friendly environments around and if there was any hope the Pacer brass wouldn't cut him. Then again, they haven't cut him so maybe it is just me....

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  9. #9
    Mjolnir Diamond Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    NO WAY IT WILL BE COMPLETELY ABOUT TIM DUNCAN AND THE SPURS AND KOBE AND SHAQ!!!!!!
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  10. #10
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    I think Bender is a bit mad at the Pacers right now for two reasons. One, the Pacers medical staff haven't fixed him, in fact there are rumors that the medical staff is part of the problem.

    Two, he's a six year vet who obviously didn't want to play in a league for free agents and rookies. What made him look bad is Ron gladly playing, even though he's an all star, and the fact that he, Bender, had played in a tournament prior to playing his one game.

    When he left the summer league he did say he needed a break because he had been going full steam since the middle of last season, yet he did play in one game.

    One other thought. If he does like Doug said, Quote: "Wait until he finally "breaks out" in the last 6 months of his contract, then demands a "max" deal." I'll be furious at him and it's not even my money.

  11. #11
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    When he left the summer league he did say he needed a break because he had been going full steam since the middle of last season, yet he did play in one game.
    I wonder if Bender's definition of "full steam" would make most NBA players laugh?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  12. #12
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    I think Bender is a bit mad at the Pacers right now for two reasons. One, the Pacers medical staff haven't fixed him, in fact there are rumors that the medical staff is part of the problem.

    i agree with this will...i have a feeling hes not the only one a bit frustrated with his health issues....by birds moves, it appears he may share some of that frustration....

    one look at benders body and its obvious he hasnt been goofing off...

    as far as him playing in the summer league, id could give a *****...i dont personally need to see im play in a summer league as some way to satisfy me that he really wants to play....

    what i want is to see him play in nba regular season games and contribute....outside of that, nothing else matters...

  13. #13
    Gamble
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    I think Bender is a bit mad at the Pacers right now for two reasons. One, the Pacers medical staff haven't fixed him, in fact there are rumors that the medical staff is part of the problem.

    Two, he's a six year vet who obviously didn't want to play in a league for free agents and rookies.
    HOw could you call Bender a Vet. He's more like a walking sink-hole of Death,
    which will drain the life blood of everything good and right. He's a repeat of
    horror in my mind and to think i support him everytime i buy a ticket. Go Bender!

  14. #14
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    as far as him playing in the summer league, id could give a *****...i dont personally need to see im play in a summer league as some way to satisfy me that he really wants to play....

    what i want is to see him play in nba regular season games and contribute....outside of that, nothing else matters...
    Aren't you the one always telling us that the front office and coaching staff knows better than us? They expected Bender to play 2 summer league games. AFAIAC, Bender should've done exactly that. He OWES this franchise (fans, team, management, coaches) that bit of respect for the money and time they've invested in him. It is far and away more than probably anyone else in the NBA would've done (paid). The Pacers have made him wealthy and he's done next to nothing for this effort to pay them back.

    Personally, I think he should've planned to play ALL summer league games and had the knee monitored closely to see how it was reacting in real game situations.

    If I was to speculate... I'd bet that the '2' game number was a compromise that Bender stipulated when he was asked to play in summer league and then he blew even that off and played only one leaving the Pacers to do some damage control and not knowing exactly what to expect once training camp rolls around.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  15. #15
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Aren't you the one always telling us that the front office and coaching staff knows better than us? They expected Bender to play 2 summer league games. AFAIAC, Bender should've done exactly that. He OWES this franchise (fans, team, management, coaches) that bit of respect for the money and time they've invested in him. It is far and away more than probably anyone else in the NBA would've done (paid). The Pacers have made him wealthy and he's done next to nothing for this effort to pay them back.

    Personally, I think he should've planned to play ALL summer league games and had the knee monitored closely to see how it was reacting in real game situations.

    If I was to speculate... I'd bet that the '2' game number was a compromise that Bender stipulated when he was asked to play in summer league and then he blew even that off and played only one leaving the Pacers to do some damage control and not knowing exactly what to expect once training camp rolls around.

    -Bball
    as i alluded to.....while im not really one to get into the whole 'bender owes us' thing...if he does owe, as far im concerned theres only one way to get that...

    and its playing in nba games....not summer league...

    plus i have a feeling that his health is not to the point where he could play everyday....comments have been made that they hope he will be ready by october, meaning hes probably not ready yet....

    as ive said...i understand people are frustrated....and people somehow would like for him to be seemingly punished by playing in summer league games....im not one of them....hes played before too soon and thats compounded the problem....

    i dont care if he played all the summer league games and all the exhibition/preseason games....all i care about is if he plays the regular season games....forgive me if i dont think that playing 1 more or even 3 more summer league games is going to lessen the blow of all the money that has been paid....

    the only way that investment will have any return is in the regular season...

  16. #16
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    I think Bender is a bit mad at the Pacers right now for two reasons. One, the Pacers medical staff haven't fixed him, in fact there are rumors that the medical staff is part of the problem.
    We've sure heard rumblings to that effect, haven't we? The whole med team getting dismantled over the offseason sure doesn't do anything to quell those rumors.
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    Enjoy your time at PD!

  17. #17
    Member CableKC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    I think Bender is a bit mad at the Pacers right now for two reasons. One, the Pacers medical staff haven't fixed him, in fact there are rumors that the medical staff is part of the problem.

    Two, he's a six year vet who obviously didn't want to play in a league for free agents and rookies.One other thought. If he does like Doug said, Quote: "Wait until he finally "breaks out" in the last 6 months of his contract, then demands a "max" deal." I'll be furious at him and it's not even my money.
    To quote another Bender ( from Futurama ), if he is mad about that...he can byte my shiny mettle @ss.

    The Pacers pay his EXTENDED contract that he has not really earned in the # of years Management has patiently waited on him to finally break out. Is it the Medical Staff's fault that he is persistently injured? Even if it is......I would hope that he would have a little patience for a team that has stuck by him throughout all these years.

    If he thinks its below him to play against rookies that are outplaying him...he should look at the bottom of the paycheck to see who signs it.

    If Bird wants him to play in Summer Camp...then he better well show up. If anything...I would think that he would do it to show his naysayers that he is up to it. If he can't put up solid #s against the scrubs of the scrubs....then what makes he think his detractors aren't going to be harder on him when he steps onto the court with real NBA players?

  18. #18
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    as i alluded to.....while im not really one to get into the whole 'bender owes us' thing...if he does owe, as far im concerned theres only one way to get that...

    and its playing in nba games....not summer league...

    plus i have a feeling that his health is not to the point where he could play everyday....comments have been made that they hope he will be ready by october, meaning hes probably not ready yet....
    Slow down... you skipped my question/point. Forget my takes on the situation that I added. I wanted to know why you would do a 180deg turn on this issue as compared to others. AFAIK the Pacers expected Bender to play in 2 summer league games. From reports, he played half-hearted in one and then took a flyer all of his own accord and was 'outta there'.

    So are you disagreeing with management/coaches?

    That's OK but when myself or others have been on the other side of management/coaches you've used the argument that they know better than people on an internet message board that have probably never even spoken to the participants... much less seen them practice or workout every day.

    So is that argument only valid when -you- happen to agree with them? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this type of thing from you in PD debates.

    Forgive me for asking but I'd like to be in the running for most argumentative poster come next year's voting!

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  19. #19
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    (sidestepping the 36794887426131 Bender argument)

    God I can't stand Chris Ford. He pretends to be such an authority, but then lets it slip that he has to ask people who were actually in the building what happened.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  20. #20
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Slow down... you skipped my question/point. Forget my takes on the situation that I added. I wanted to know why you would do a 180deg turn on this issue as compared to others. AFAIK the Pacers expected Bender to play in 2 summer league games. From reports, he played half-hearted in one and then took a flyer all of his own accord and was 'outta there'.

    So are you disagreeing with management/coaches?

    That's OK but when myself or others have been on the other side of management/coaches you've used the argument that they know better than people on an internet message board that have probably never even spoken to the participants... much less seen them practice or workout every day.

    So is that argument only valid when -you- happen to agree with them? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this type of thing from you in PD debates.

    Forgive me for asking but I'd like to be in the running for most argumentative poster come next year's voting!

    -Bball
    i guess i havent seen anything that indicated that larry, donnie, or rick wanted him to play in another game and he refused....in fact the only thing i saw was that rick said something to the effect that they were pleased his knee appeared to be ok from the game, he was gonna rest a bit from rehab and they were optimistic he would be ready for october....

    im not on the witch hunt many appear to be with regard to bender....if bender refused to play when management wanted him to, then yes, i would have different feelings on that.....but i have no reason to believe that was the case based on what ive seen or read....

    as far as awards go i dont know what to tell u, other than this....i have no interest in debating or arguing if the impetus is to win some award...i enjoy discussing things with u when we have a difference of opinion, but if ur sole motivation is winning an award....well...i guess i might prefer to be left out of that ...in fact, if u would like, i can see about the possibility of transferring any votes to u, if it gets to that point....though i dont really expect to garner many votes when it comes to any votes, whatsoever, as my approach has nothing to do with winning a popularity contest...so im not sure it would help u much

  21. #21
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    as far as awards go i dont know what to tell u, other than this....i have no interest in debating or arguing if the impetus is to win some award...i enjoy discussing things with u when we have a difference of opinion, but if ur sole motivation is winning an award....well...i guess i might prefer to be left out of that

    Sorry, but you already have my nominating vote....

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  22. #22
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    (sidestepping the 36794887426131 Bender argument)

    God I can't stand Chris Ford. He pretends to be such an authority, but then lets it slip that he has to ask people who were actually in the building what happened.
    Chad Ford, not Chris.

  23. #23
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Sorry, but you already have my nominating vote....

    -Bball
    see my edit

  24. #24
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    see my edit

    Truth is, Kstat and Ragnar are tough competition...

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  25. #25
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Article Request

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i guess i havent seen anything that indicated that larry, donnie, or rick wanted him to play in another game and he refused....in fact the only thing i saw was that rick said something to the effect that they were pleased his knee appeared to be ok from the game, he was gonna rest a bit from rehab and they were optimistic he would be ready for october....
    What's Chuck Person, chopped liver??
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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