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Thread: More nonsense!

  1. #26
    foretaz
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    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00
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    I have no beef with foretaz either , in this case, we just seem to disagree on what we consider relavent to the thread.

    simple disagreement or misunderstanding....not that big of a deal...least it wasnt to me...nor did i think it was to u...

    however, to others it would be a different situation....

    i think some of it might have to do with the "annointing"

    when some feel that they have been "annointed" and then like to point it out...

    well...

  2. #27
    foretaz
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    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    I wish I knew what axe I had to grind.

    I also wish I were an admin, so I could say whatever I wanted when someone was dictating to other members what is "appropriate" for the forum and being an a.......

    Oh wait, I am an admin. That means I can discuss what the recourse in this situation would be and post accordingly, like I did today! Whoopie!
    interesting....

    very interesting...

    i truly hope u have no ambitions of going into law enforcement

    btw...ur choice (or whoevers choice) of posts to move to this arena are questionable at best....normally i dont say anything....but this time i feel id be interested in an explanation....as i find it very difficult anyone can justify why the first few posts in this thread were moved out of the initial thread....

    but then again, justifying a number of things that seem to be taking place might be difficult....nothing worse than people having a separate agenda misusing certain powers to further that agenda....

  3. #28
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    It was clear that it was just a misunderstanding. And its not like DD00 needs someone to defend him. And yes, I was a bit surprised to see these moved myself, but I could go either way on it.

    Mostly, I was just trying to put a stop to a recurring, but generally minor problem: If you'd quit telling people how they should think and post, and leave out the unneeded and condenscending put-downs, the discussion would be over. Just because DD00 wasn't really offended doesn't mean that there weren't others - occasional posters or lurkers or even regulars - thinking to themselves, "Wow, I don't think I want to get into a discussion with this jerk."

    +++++++++++++

    For example, "I think you missed the premise of this thread" is sufficient, you don't need to add crap like:

    -snip-
    maybe take all that energy you seem to be utilizing to bash an idea and try to create additional scenarios, instead of doing what is very easy and requires very little brain power-finding whats wrong with something....

    its a long known fact...if u want to find something wrong with something, it wont be hard...

    so get with the program, and what the intention was....

    the fun part of these hypothetical discussions is u come up with a bunch of scenarios and then determine which ones u like best and why....

    now...can u play nice???
    Unfortunately, I think you've tried to turn it into several things it was not, add a few humerous comments from your peers, and *presto* ... Welcome to the Shout Box.

    ++++++++++++++

    There are other examples of this - and although none of them are particularly bad in their own right - after a while, "enough is enough." IMO, there was nothing here bad enough to warrant a PM or a warning or anything like that, it was just something was (1) totally unnecessary, and (2) receiving a small amount of complaints. So we thought we'd try to draw a line in the sand so everyone is reminded that its okay to say, "You missed my point", but its not okay to say, "You missed my point, idiot."

    ++++++++++++++

    Lastly, I'm not much of a consiracty theorist, so I'll need some help here: What separate agenda is being pursued? I'm really curious because the only intent I'm aware of is the one I just mentioned above.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  4. #29
    foretaz
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    It was clear that it was just a misunderstanding. And its not like DD00 needs someone to defend him. And yes, I was a bit surprised to see these moved myself, but I could go either way on it.
    if u could go either way on the fact that the first 4 or 5 posts of this thread shouldve been moved.....then something is bad wrong...which points to my "conspiracy theory"....theres not a reason in the world that those posts shouldve been moved...not one...not unless someone has a different agenda

    Mostly, I was just trying to put a stop to a recurring, but generally minor problem: If you'd quit telling people how they should think and post, and leave out the unneeded and condenscending put-downs, the discussion would be over. Just because DD00 wasn't really offended doesn't mean that there weren't others - occasional posters or lurkers or even regulars - thinking to themselves, "Wow, I don't think I want to get into a discussion with this jerk."
    i tell noone how to think or post....in fact, in this case, if anyone was doing that it wouldve been DD00....and i think that part was the misunderstanding as he somehow thought that these were things that i was advocating....i tried to state very clearly that i wasnt....then when in his next post he started it out with it being something that i wanted, i became alot more blunt....

    i find it funny that because i provide my viewpoints and then alot of reasoning and rationale behind those viewpoints that people interpret that to mean im telling people how to think or post...now in this particular case, my suggestion might have been a bit strong to DD00 in reference to actually providing a scenario instead of debating the one i was stating, mainly because i feel like he probably didnt read the initial post, for if he did, he wouldnt be responding the same way....i know him....and these are his specialties...he loves coming up with scenarios....and is pretty good at it sometimes...

    as far as being a jerk...i often think that many times with regards to a number of people on here....difference is....if i think someone is being a jerk....and they are potentially wrong....i might engage that person....

    the fact that u as a mod are now guessing what other people are thinking as a reason to speak up, in this case which i feel was a bit inappropriate, and then do it in a very "jerky" manner....what good does that do???? i have respect for u...and u know that...i do think u were a bit out of line in not only what u did, but how u did it....

    btown is a different story.....he definitely has an axe to grind...and frankly i dont know why.....hes obviously offended by me in some way....anyone that resorts to the types of conversations that he has over the last week with me, has not only an agenda but maturity issues as well, as evidenced by his "im a mod, and i can do whatever i want post"...thats a joke...and we both know it....


    +++++++++++++
    For example, "I think you missed the premise of this thread" is sufficient, you don't need to add crap like:



    Unfortunately, I think you've tried to turn it into several things it was not, add a few humerous comments from your peers, and *presto* ... Welcome to the Shout Box.

    ++++++++++++++

    There are other examples of this - and although none of them are particularly bad in their own right - after a while, "enough is enough." IMO, there was nothing here bad enough to warrant a PM or a warning or anything like that, it was just something was (1) totally unnecessary, and (2) receiving a small amount of complaints. So we thought we'd try to draw a line in the sand so everyone is reminded that its okay to say, "You missed my point", but its not okay to say, "You missed my point, idiot."
    ++++++++++++++

    Lastly, I'm not much of a consiracty theorist, so I'll need some help here: What separate agenda is being pursued? I'm really curious because the only intent I'm aware of is the one I just mentioned above.[/QUOTE]

    i defy u to show me where i called someone an idiot....thats not kewel jay, and u know it....embellishment to make ur point in this case is shameless....i d like to think im versed enuff in the english language (despite what kstat might say)along with mature enuff to avoid calling people names....

    yes...ive said uve missed my point....and i may often make it a point to do that.....but i dont believe ive ever called someone a name like that....i usually show a great deal of restraint when it comes to calling people names...

    and please remember this is a message board....u start assuming what people are thinking and what their attitudes are and u are going down a road that can lead to nowhere good...

    as far as the agenda goes....ive addressed that....i personally think that the fact ive pointed out u have a tendency of dragging ur disdain for artest into threads that it simply is not necessary may not have gone over very well...im not sure...i cant know what ur thinking...however u did jump in unlike any way you have in the past....i know u a wee bit, and id probably say this is probably not the case....

    btown is a different case....ill try to avoid stating what type of attitude it appears he has, as ive said thats a bit out of line....but the things hes typed in my direction of late, well, lets just say that they were out of line....but wait...hes a mod...so he can do that and apparently its ok...

  5. #30
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    FWIW, I often get into long-winded and sometimes heated discussions with others. But there's always a point where saying "I apologize for the way my post sounded" (and then dropping the subject) really helps everyone cool off.

    It's taken a while for me to get it, but sometimes saying your piece, acknowledging others who say thiers (even if you don't agree with them) and then letting it go is a good 1-2-3 for getting along.


  6. #31
    foretaz
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    and i have very little doubt that DD00 and i would have gotten on the same page...with neither of us being the worse for wear....we werent even disagreeing, per se'....which is the ironic part...

    and in this case when u have mods jumping in rather unceremoniously with an attitude that rivals the attitude they are accusing others of having....well it took a situation that was simply a misunderstanding and turned it into something much different...

  7. #32
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    if u could go either way on the fact that the first 4 or 5 posts of this thread shouldve been moved.....then something is bad wrong...which points to my "conspiracy theory"....theres not a reason in the world that those posts shouldve been moved...not one...not unless someone has a different agenda

  8. #33
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    That's fine, and it's OK with me that you exercise your right to question how the mods do thier jobs.

    From an outside perspective, this thread seemed dangerously close to getting out of control, and a quick "lets talk about some of this elsewhere" thread split isn't that big of a deal.

    I understand you're desire to explain yourself. But the first rule of communication is "The message you send is never exactly the message that is received." Meaning: readers often interpret words to mean something outside the original intent of authors.

    Bearing that in mind, a lot of the talk in this thread is an attempt to explain how the tone and perceived "attitude" in some of your posts can be adjusted to allow for more accurate and calm interpretation by your readers.

    Good luck, and don't give up.

    - LA

  9. #34
    foretaz
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    is this ur explanation for why the first 4 posts in this thread were removed from the original thread?

    cause im waiting.....id really like to know why theyve been moved...since they are in no way off topic or out of line by any standard im aware of....

  10. #35
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Foretaz, you're trying too hard to turn this into something its not.

    Chill out, re-read what I've said twice, and let it go. The point is not for you or anyone else to take every word I've posted on this thread literally, as if anybody was being quoted. Rather, its for everyone to remember that we can all disagree, but we need to be civil about.

    Heaven forbid we ever try to make a pre-emptive strike when we sense a problem brewing - maybe not with you and DD00, maybe not even with you, period. But we've been getting complaints about how "testy" its been around PD lately and we're trying to be preventative. You may not have called DD00 an "Idiot", and he may not have even been offended by what you said, but your comments were in a gray area.

    Nobody was banned, no posts were censored, etc. This is the equivalent of a minor traffic stop. We'd just like to move everybody back to the "civil" side before there is a blowup.

    Everone take five minutes to calm down.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  11. #36
    foretaz
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    That's fine, and it's OK with me that you exercise your right to question how the mods do thier jobs.

    From an outside perspective, this thread seemed dangerously close to getting out of control, and a quick "lets talk about some of this elsewhere" thread split isn't that big of a deal.

    I understand you're desire to explain yourself. But the first rule of communication is "The message you send is never exactly the message that is received." Meaning: readers often interpret words to mean something outside the original intent of authors.

    Bearing that in mind, a lot of the talk in this thread is an attempt to explain how the tone and perceived "attitude" in some of your posts can be adjusted to allow for more accurate and calm interpretation by your readers.

    Good luck, and don't give up.

    - LA
    there was no tone or perceived attitude in the 4 posts that begin this thread....and as ive said....u start perceiving attitude on the internet and u go down a road that simply should not be gone down....so u will forgive me if im not particularly interested in others people opinion on how they feel i might 'adjust my tone and perceived attitude'....and people are saying im condescending ????

    funny...i always thought the first rule of communication was "listen"
    guess we read a different book...

    but, it is possible for things to get misunderstood when only words are involved....and i have no doubt that was at the root of the initial problem....

    however the mods jumped the gun and did it in a very unprofessional manner as far as im concerned.....if there were truly concerns, these shouldve been addressed privately....the fact that someone would not only do it in an open forum, but do it with the words that were used....well....it wouldnt seem to lend to the fixing of any problem, but only creating new ones and escalating a situation, which it did...and while i dont see this done on a normal basis, the ensuing remarks indicated that there definitley was some added, outside motivation for it....

  12. #37
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    OK, I'll let this one go.

  13. #38
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  14. #39
    foretaz
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Foretaz, you're trying too hard to turn this into something its not.

    Chill out, re-read what I've said twice, and let it go. The point is not for you or anyone else to take every word I've posted on this thread literally, as if anybody was being quoted. Rather, its for everyone to remember that we can all disagree, but we need to be civil about.

    Heaven forbid we ever try to make a pre-emptive strike when we sense a problem brewing - maybe not with you and DD00, maybe not even with you, period. But we've been getting complaints about how "testy" its been around PD lately and we're trying to be preventative. You may not have called DD00 an "Idiot", and he may not have even been offended by what you said, but your comments were in a gray area.

    Nobody was banned, no posts were censored, etc. This is the equivalent of a minor traffic stop. We'd just like to move everybody back to the "civil" side before there is a blowup.

    Everone take five minutes to calm down.
    I didn't realize we had annointed another new moderator.

    Congrats!
    I'm not even sure he was annointed "moderator". Seems to me he thinks he's "king" or something.
    I wish I knew what axe I had to grind.

    I also wish I were an admin, so I could say whatever I wanted when someone was dictating to other members what is "appropriate" for the forum and being an a.......

    Oh wait, I am an admin. That means I can discuss what the recourse in this situation would be and post accordingly, like I did today! Whoopie!
    im curious...which of these are preemptive strikes...and which are done to deescalate the situation.....which ones are preventative....are any of these gray area??? would they be considered civil just disagreeable????

    the simple fact that the mods have chosen to handle this all on the open forum versus privately might lead one to believe that its not me whos trying to turn this into something that its not....

    suggestion...if u dont want things to become tense or lacking civility....throwing gasoline where u perceive there to be fire might not be the best idea.....and i cant help but think handling this in a private manner wouldve been much more effective....and im disappointed in that...considering ive had multiple conversations privately with both u jay and hicks as well....btown is a different story....and since his comments pretty much speak for themselves...i wont even address them...

  15. #40
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Is there a way to crate a "shout-shout box", for threads that get more out of hand here?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  16. #41
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Is there a way to crate a "shout-shout box", for threads that get more out of hand here?
    It would need round the clock observation and guards to keep everyone safe.
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  17. #42
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    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Even though this is already all here on this page, I'll repeat it one last time. The premptive strike was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Was that necessary?

    You do realize that you're just about the only one on here setting "rules" for threads and other posters, by the way?
    A fairly harmless comment to keep your inflammatory words to DD00 from setting off a firestorm. That was followed by you telling me to re-read the title of this thread. As if the thread title somehow justified your rude comments?

    So I asked you what was your point, and instead of explaining yourself, or stopping, you proceeded to tell DD00 your "rules" for participating in this thread, even though he had done nothing wrong. Sometimes, we like to be "transparent" here so that everyone knows the limits. There was nothing to censor or ban, no reason to PM somebody and make them feel threatened. This should have all stopped here after my gentle "nudge."

    So I said,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    DD00 was talking about basketball. Heck, he was talking about a player he wouldn't take for JO. Seems to me that (1) he was on topic, and (2) even if he wasn't totally on-topic, we go on tangents all the time around here and that's fine.

    You can feel free to stop telling other people how to post at any time.
    And you said,

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    :finger:
    And then all hell broke loose.

    Now, had I known you'd respond like that, I would've handled it privately. I thought I could subtly let you know that your comments were unneccessary and that you'd keep it from further escalation. I guess I was wrong, so I'm sorry. Next time, if you'd prefer, maybe we'll just overreact and censor your post or give you a "vacation" without giving you an opportunity to maintain the conversation with a more civil choice of words.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #43
    foretaz
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    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Even though this is already all here on this page, I'll repeat it one last time. The premptive strike was:



    A fairly harmless comment to keep your inflammatory words to DD00 from setting off a firestorm. That was followed by you telling me to re-read the title of this thread. As if the thread title somehow justified your rude comments?

    So I asked you what was your point, and instead of explaining yourself, or stopping, you proceeded to tell DD00 your "rules" for participating in this thread, even though he had done nothing wrong. Sometimes, we like to be "transparent" here so that everyone knows the limits. There was nothing to censor or ban, no reason to PM somebody and make them feel threatened. This should have all stopped here after my gentle "nudge."

    So I said,



    And you said,



    And then all hell broke loose.

    Now, had I known you'd respond like that, I would've handled it privately. I thought I could subtly let you know that your comments were unneccessary and that you'd keep it from further escalation. I guess I was wrong, so I'm sorry. Next time, if you'd prefer, maybe we'll just overreact and censor your post or give you a "vacation" without giving you an opportunity to maintain the conversation with a more civil choice of words.
    thats ur version...the way u see it....which is far different from the way i see it....

    not unlike many things that can take place on here....

    funny how we both think our own actions were gentle nudges and harmless....while the other one caused things for all hell to break loose....

    trust me....u think they broke loose when :finger: happened....but in my estimation they had already done so...and that was my response....

    and for the record...there would have been no firestorm....as i have indicated and DD00 has indicated.....a fact that somehow u seem to want to avoid....

    the only ones that seemed to think there was a potential firestorm was u....and evidently btown, though im not sure about him....all i know about him is his disparaging remarks to me seem to be a nonissue.....far be it from a poster to degrade another poster-in the mods eyes....but having a mod call a poster names and degrade him....well thats ok...interesting...

  19. #44
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Don't make me stop this car. Because I will, you know. I'll do it.....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  20. #45
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    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    -snip- and for the record...there would have been no firestorm....as i have indicated and DD00 has indicated.....a fact that somehow u seem to want to avoid....

    the only ones that seemed to think there was a potential firestorm was u...
    I've acknowledged that was probably true in this instance. However, it doesn't really matter.

    From: The Rules of Pacers Digest

    1. Don't be a jerk. You have no right, at any time, to deny anyone on this forum the right to have a positive experience and/or conversation on this forum. Intentionally acting rude, insulting, flaming, belittling, name-calling, hateful or insensitive to anyone or their friends, family, or where they live is not acceptable. We will not always agree with each other, but show some respect. If you do one of these things, it will be edited. If you continuously do it, you will be asked to stop, and if you fail to stop after talking with us about it, you will be dealt with in whatever way we feel is appropriate. If what was said is particularly obscene, you will be banned.

    Every situation is different, and depending on how we or the person(s) being verbally abused takes your post, it can affect the severity of our response.

    If what was said is viewed as light-hearted, or there was a simple misunderstanding, it might be OK and no harm is done. On the other hand, if what was said is viewed as particularly bad, we have the right to bypass a warning and immediately ban you.

    What is seen as "particularly bad"? That depends on the situation, but generally speaking, if we believe what was said was blatantly racist, hateful, or otherwise mean-spirited/obscene/offensive, you will most likely be immediately dealt with.

    Be sure to read this if you feel you are being accused or punished over a simple misunderstanding:

    If you feel that you were in no way intentionally trying to insult anyone, and it was a simple misunderstanding, you must go out of your way to explain yourself. This is critically important to avoid any further misunderstandings, unfair treatment, or needless animosity.

    If you offend somebody, responding with a and "I was just joking" doesn't cut it. You have to explain yourself.

    Joking around is fine, but it helps if you make it known you're fooling around. Nobody can read your mind here.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  21. #46
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    As much as I like watching train wrecks, maybe this one should get the old Masterlock treatment.

  22. #47
    foretaz
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    Default Re: More nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    As much as I like watching train wrecks, maybe this one should get the old Masterlock treatment.
    better watch it...u will get comments like who annointed another mod...or we werent aware there was another mod annointed....or a king even....

  23. #48
    foretaz
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    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I've acknowledged that was probably true in this instance. However, it doesn't really matter.

    From: The Rules of Pacers Digest
    lol...hmmm...at the risk of sounding aloof...

    yea...and??

    i know the rules...

    and u just said "it doesnt really matter"

    how in the hell cant it matter??????

    if DD00 isnt offended..and has no beef with me...and i was talking to him...

    how can that not matter???????

    ill tell u how it cannot matter...

    cause then all this other stuff is bs....shouldve never happened...

    maybe the mods shouldnt be so quick to determine whos being offended and whos not....

    in all of DD's comments i never saw anything that made me think he was offended.....that we disagreed????yep....now thats gotta be the first time thats happened on a message board....

    you cant say that it doesnt really matter.....because it does....

    and the rules that u quoted clearly indicate that it DOES matter....

    and im curious....since i was offended by btowns remarks....what happens with that????

  24. #49
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    London UK
    Posts
    8,699

    Default Re: More nonsense!

    let's put this to bed now shall we?

    foretaz if you have a problem with a mod, you pm hicks, or if that is not "it" in your eyes another mod you d ohave some faith in, if you have faith in none then there are two options: one you adept your "behaviour so as to not get into "trouble" or two, you give up alltogether, which would also be a shame.

    relax, chillout, catch a breather and forget it

    move on.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  25. #50
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I wish I knew what axe I had to grind.

    I also wish I were an admin, so I could say whatever I wanted when someone was dictating to other members what is "appropriate" for the forum and being an a.......

    Oh wait, I am an admin. That means I can discuss what the recourse in this situation would be and post accordingly, like I did today! Whoopie!

    ultimately able...i have no problems with u or hicks at all....i think u both know that....and with jay, i think this was just a big misunderstanding where we both got a little too testy with one another....thats ok when talking about artest....but not when this sort of thing happens....i for my part, wished things wouldve not gone down this road....and wished i wouldve pmed jay-because i kept hoping he would do the same to me....i like jay...and he knows it....despite how it might seem....and this sort of thing doesnt change anything with that regard, at least with me...but as u can notice, im not the type to be called out and not respond...that doesnt make it right....hows the line go??? thats how i lead my life, lets move on.....

    i do have a problem with btown...the snide remarks and what have u...i accept...ive made em...we all have....

    this post however, crosses the line, in my eyes...

    i try and think i do a relatively successful job of avoiding calling people names...no matter the situation....

    to be called an a______ by anyone, let alone a mod...well...what would happen if i wouldve called btown an a______??

    and i wont even go into the pseudo "im a mod, hahaha" banter...quite unbecoming if u ask me....

    when u start holding posters to standards that the mods are not expected to meet....well...

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