View Poll Results: Who do the Pacers waive

Voters
80. You may not vote on this poll
  • Croshere

    45 56.25%
  • Bender

    16 20.00%
  • Another player

    1 1.25%
  • Nobody

    18 22.50%
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 60 of 60

Thread: Croshere or Bender

  1. #51
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    u know, theres is one other angle on this, that hasnt really been discussed much.....

    where the released player ends up....and how that could possibly affect whos released....
    That's not really true. That's why I've been saying all along (although not necessarily in this thread) that the Pacers are unlikely to use the amnesty provision on Croshere. I think they'd rather bite the bullet and pay the LT on a coaches' favorite than pay him anyway while he's playing for one of our rivals.

    Now, with Bender that's anyone's guess. Again, his perceived inability to pass a physical will keep many teams away.

    Anyway, thanks for conceding my point, even if you didn't do it on purpose.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #52
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,025

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's not really true. That's why I've been saying all along (although not necessarily in this thread) that the Pacers are unlikely to use the amnesty provision on Croshere. I think they'd rather bite the bullet and pay the LT on a coaches' favorite than pay him anyway while he's playing for one of our rivals.

    Now, with Bender that's anyone's guess. Again, his perceived inability to pass a physical will keep many teams away.

    Anyway, thanks for conceding my point, even if you didn't do it on purpose.

    It's turns like this that makes me wonder if foretaz has really been paying attention to a debate or just enjoying arguing his point and not really 'listening' to the dissenting opinions.

    There are several reasons why Croshere might not be the amnesty casualty as Jay, Diamond Dave and myself (and probably others) have mentioned.

    I don't think it is cut and dried who it would be let alone if we'd take advantage of it at all. I know who it would be if I had the decision
    As I said in another post in this thread... Everyone is quick to put this in pure business terms. I countered that if the Pacer salary situation was handled in pure business terms we wouldn't be in this salary bracket or situation (grossly overpaid players) in the first place.

    Heck... it could be Gill which wouldn't make much sense for LT reasons but would clear out the 4th PG slot now on the roster.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  3. #53
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's turns like this that makes me wonder if foretaz has really been paying attention to a debate or just enjoying arguing his point and not really 'listening' to the dissenting opinions.

    There are several reasons why Croshere might not be the amnesty casualty as Jay, Diamond Dave and myself (and probably others) have mentioned.

    I don't think it is cut and dried who it would be let alone if we'd take advantage of it at all. I know who it would be if I had the decision
    As I said in another post in this thread... Everyone is quick to put this in pure business terms. I countered that if the Pacer salary situation was handled in pure business terms we wouldn't be in this salary bracket or situation (grossly overpaid players) in the first place.

    Heck... it could be Gill which wouldn't make much sense for LT reasons but would clear out the 4th PG slot now on the roster.

    -Bball
    Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    That's not really true. That's why I've been saying all along (although not necessarily in this thread) that the Pacers are unlikely to use the amnesty provision on Croshere. I think they'd rather bite the bullet and pay the LT on a coaches' favorite than pay him anyway while he's playing for one of our rivals.

    Now, with Bender that's anyone's guess. Again, his perceived inability to pass a physical will keep many teams away.

    Anyway, thanks for conceding my point, even if you didn't do it on purpose.
    ok...lemme see if i can kill two birds with one stone here...

    first and foremost, i am quite intriqued by this issue of the new cba....thats probably obvious by now....and i just love to keep discussing it...and im very excited to see how it gets used, doesnt get used, and what the final details are regarding it...

    jay, i know u made mention of why u thought teams would not use it...that no team would pay a player to go play for someone else....but some will ...and it will be despite what u mention, and what i mentioned above....because despite what impact finley might provide phoenix, despite what impact croshere might provide miami, there might be many more reasons to do so versus not-each team will have to decide-and thats what intriques me....bottom line if the impact those players made were that dramatic, they wouldnt be subject to discussing them in this clause anyway...

    i still feel that IF the pacers choose to use this provision, that croshere makes the most business sense....and this move would be a business oriented move...

    i also wouldnt be shocked if they used it with reggie, though it wouldnt have nearly the same impact, business wise....

    bender is less likely, because they have other potential options with him with regard medical exceptions as time goes on, not to mention insurance is helping them out a great deal with his contract....

    i also wouldnt be surprised to see a deal involving croshere, f. jones, and aj going to portland in some sort of exchange for van exels contract....we will see....

    most of all, i dont really think im changing any stance on the subject(though if it makes either of u 2 feel good-then by all means), its just i love the subject and all the possible discussion regarding it...

  4. #54
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    -snip-bender is less likely, because they have other potential options with him with regard medical exceptions as time goes on, not to mention insurance is helping them out a great deal with his contract....
    Do we even know if this is true?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  5. #55
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Do we even know if this is true?
    well im not sure which part u are referring to....

    as far as the medical exception goes.....and retiring due to medical reasons....and getting a replacement player...all those things are ongoing with bender....in other words it remains to be seen what happens as his health is still in question, but as it plays out there might be other options depending on what happens...

    regarding the insurance....its my understanding that all nba contracts are insured....and when a player is physically unable to perform due to injury, as in benders case, the team is entitled to 80% of his salary....one of the many reasons passing the physical is so important....

  6. #56
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    That's my point exactly, you're guessing that since Bender is physically unable to perform, by some defininition that you are using, that the Pacers are getting insurance payments.

    I don't think that's true. First of all, that doesn't apply just because a guy spends part, most, or all of a season on an injured list. Secondly, since they keep putting Bender on a court from time-to-time, I don't see how anyone could reasonably conclude that Bender is "physically unable to perform."

    If Bender retires/ is forced to retire because of injury, that's when insurance might or might not kick-in.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  7. #57
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's my point exactly, you're guessing that since Bender is physically unable to perform, by some defininition that you are using, that the Pacers are getting insurance payments.

    I don't think that's true. First of all, that doesn't apply just because a guy spends part, most, or all of a season on an injured list. Secondly, since they keep putting Bender on a court from time-to-time, I don't see how anyone could reasonably conclude that Bender is "physically unable to perform."

    If Bender retires/ is forced to retire because of injury, that's when insurance might or might not kick-in.
    hmmm...

    ok....he played 7 games this past year for a grand total of 93 minutes...

    the reason he was physically unable to play is not a definition "im using"....it has more to do with the fact everytime he tried to play his knee swelled up to the size of a bowling ball...

    now...as far as insurance goes..do u think an insurance company would like to continue to make payments for an injured player without any rehab or any attempts at getting that player back out on the floor...surely they would want to see some effort made to see if progress was being made..or at the very least, some attempt was being made to play him to prove indeed that he was unable to perform due to physical reasons.....the fact that he was put in the direct care of the physician(dyrek) only further indicates that he probably was being scrutinized by not only the pacers but by the insurance company that was making the payments...

    as far as him being forced to retire or what have u...thats when the salary cap relief would come in....not the insurance....the insurance isnt in case the player dies, though that would be the extreme case....a team isnt going to give a player a contract for 45 million dollars or whatever and eat that whole amount if the guy gets injured....its not unlike urs and i's health insurance....the league has an insurance carrier that underwrites all player contracts...all of them....and as i mentioned, thats one of the primary reasons teams have physicals that have to be passed...

  8. #58
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,025

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    But the Pacers can't force a player to retire... AFAIK....
    So if Bender wants to keep making an appearance in 1 percent of the games played (I guess it was actually less than that last year (.09 percent)) then the Pacers are stuck paying him and get no salary relief. (I'm using your number of 7 games played. I don't know if that is accurate or not)

    And I don't know that his knee ever swelled to the size of a bowling ball... do you know that?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  9. #59
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But the Pacers can't force a player to retire... AFAIK....
    So if Bender wants to keep making an appearance in 1 percent of the games played (I guess it was actually less than that last year (.09 percent)) then the Pacers are stuck paying him and get no salary relief. (I'm using your number of 7 games played. I don't know if that is accurate or not)

    And I don't know that his knee ever swelled to the size of a bowling ball... do you know that?

    -Bball
    no question they cant force him to retire....as i alluded to, alot depends on what happens from here on out....this all could be moot if he remains healthy....but if it happens again...the number of games hes been able to play in has dropped dramatically the last 3 years....to almost nothing last year....and if it persists....well....he wouldnt be the first guy to say adios due to injury....

    as far as the bowling ball....ok...i might have been embellishing just a wee bit

  10. #60
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Croshere or Bender

    I had written out a reply on the insurance topic last night, when the thunderstorm caused the power to flicker and I lost it. So I gave up. We've had almost an inch of rain in the past week, and that was more than the amount we'd received from May 1 to July 15 so I'm not complaining (and that's what they mean by "extreme drought").

    But to summarize it in one sentence, there's no way the insurance company is paying a dime if they believe Bender has any chance of playing again.

    Every time he's healthy enough to make an audition on the court it just postpones that decision even longer.

    You said,

    not to mention insurance is helping them out a great deal with his contract....
    That's written in the present tense. I believe that's not only false, but if Bender never plays another NBA game then its probably still 1-3 years away from a reaching a settlement with the insurance.

    What did Orlando do with the insurance money they got for Grant Hill's career-ending injury? Wait... they didn't get any, it wasn't really career-ending.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •