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Thread: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The bottomline is IT wanted a m,ax contract after this coming season and the Celtics were not going to do that for a huge defensive liability, so they were going to lose him and they really needed to trade IT. Plus the team as it was last season got killed in the ECF's by the Cavs, so they had maxed out and had to re-vamp their roster and they did that., Plus they still have the lakers pick. So they are in great shape.
    They're in good shape no doubt, but they were in out of this world shape before.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
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    Wasn't a concern for me because i don't have his medical. Ainge does.

    Clearly Crowder + IT wasn't enough for Cleveland. They didn't *have* to trade Kyrie. Boston probably loved the player so much they decided to throw in the BKN pick to seal the deal.
    Well, the Cavs have IT's medical as well. And if anything is there that says he can't play this season the trade won't be completed.

    At best from your perspective, it was a fair trade, which, I think the trade leans the Cavs way. But you don't do a fair trade with the only team challenging you in the East! Even if you don't think they have to trade Kyrie, you then force an awkward mess if he stays.

    Hell, you may have given Lebron the assets to convince him to stay in Cleveland. It's madness you support this. This trade would kill me for so many reasons if I were in your shoes.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    I will say if IT is injured all year can't play in playoffs the trade ends up brilliant.

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    Default Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    I think at the core of this, is a range of opinions on Kyrie Irving's value. Some see him as a multi all star, championship starter. Others see him as a product of the teams he's been on, and with significant defensive liabilities.

    Can't evaluate the trade until you agree upon what you think of Kyrie.

    Something that caught my attention was Kyrie's play on the Olympic team. You all should go back and watch him there, to get a sense of what he might look like on other teams.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I think at the core of this, is a range of opinions on Kyrie Irving's value. Some see him as a multi all star, championship starter. Others see him as a product of the teams he's been on, and with significant defensive liabilities.

    Can't evaluate the trade until you agree upon what you think of Kyrie.

    Something that caught my attention was Kyrie's play on the Olympic team. You all should go back and watch him there, to get a sense of what he might look like on other teams.

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    Not at all, Kyrie is a top 15 player in the league, still think it's bad move for Celtics considering what they gave up and the team they gave it to.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
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    you guys have so much salt towards boston it's insane. it's like they're rivals or something.
    I don't think anyone on here has salt towards Boston. We're all Pacers fans & Pacers fans only. We don't like other teams but are smart enough to know what's a good deal & what's bad. At least I do. I think you might just be upset over the whole deal. And that's ok. As a fan you can disagree with decisions someone else made who runs your favorite team. If Boston fired Brad Stevens & hired Jim o'brien again then we're all going to say it was a terrible move. Then you'd tell us it was a good move & we're all just salty.

    I'm a diehard Pacers fan & will admit the TJ Leaf pick was bad. All the other offseason moves have been "A1."

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Not at all, Kyrie is a top 15 player in the league, still think it's bad move for Celtics considering what they gave up and the team they gave it to.
    Your comment was orthogonal to mine. I believe people have different interpretations of Kyries value. Do you agree or disagree?


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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Your comment was orthogonal to mine. I believe people have different interpretations of Kyries value. Do you agree or disagree?


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    Yes, I believe people have different interpretations of Kyrie's value.

    However, I don't think you have to agree on his value to rate the trade.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I think at the core of this, is a range of opinions on Kyrie Irving's value. Some see him as a multi all star, championship starter. Others see him as a product of the teams he's been on, and with significant defensive liabilities.

    Can't evaluate the trade until you agree upon what you think of Kyrie.

    Something that caught my attention was Kyrie's play on the Olympic team. You all should go back and watch him there, to get a sense of what he might look like on other teams.

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    This is always the crux of the disagreement on trades. No two people value the same player the same amount.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Yes, I believe people have different interpretations of Kyrie's value.

    However, I don't think you have to agree on his value to rate the trade.
    Gotcha. Because you think he's top 15 and it's still bad value?

    If he's top 15, then they have a real shot this year. If they advance to the finals will you still say it's a bad trade?

    I don't think he's top 15, and that will likely be pretty apparent by mid season. I think Boston is going to have to score a metric ton of points if they are going to win a lot of games, because their defensive looks are putrid.


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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Gotcha. Because you think he's top 15 and it's still bad value?

    If he's top 15, then they have a real shot this year. If they advance to the finals will you still say it's a bad trade?

    I don't think he's top 15, and that will likely be pretty apparent by mid season. I think Boston is going to have to score a metric ton of points if they are going to win a lot of games, because their defensive looks are putrid.


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    If Kyrie is top 15, then getting IT, Zizic, and Crowder was the best possible return for Kyrie.

    Top players in PER for reference

    Westbrook
    KD
    Leonard
    Davis
    Harden
    Lebron
    IT
    Jokic
    CP3
    Giannis
    KAT
    Boogie
    Steph
    Jimmy Butler

    Then let's just say there's PG, Dame, Derozan, John Wall, Conley, Kyrie.

    That's a lot of good players.

    Who on that list is both better than IT and could of been had in a trade?

    The Celtics gave their only rival the absolute best squad possible via trade AND future assets.

    It's unreal.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    1) Ainge clearly believes Kyrie is better than PG or Butler. Or plays a more important position and has more value to the team.

    2) IT is/was hurt. Close to 30. Final year of deal. Wants max. DA had no interest in investing that money in him. With him or without IT in 17...the Celtics were not beating the Cavs.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
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    1) Ainge clearly believes Kyrie is better than PG or Butler. Or plays a more important position and has more value to the team.

    2) IT is/was hurt. Close to 30. Final year of deal. Wants max. DA had no interest in investing that money in him. With him or without IT in 17...the Celtics were not beating the Cavs.
    Letting IT walk doesn't change anything. Kyrie can walk the following year.

    I agree, don't sign IT to extension if you think he not worth it.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    I don't get why some of you are wondering why Ainge wanted to pay up big for Kyrie while not giving up a similar king's ransom for PG13 or Butler. For the reasons that Ryan has pointed out....which should be obvious....as well as the fact that Kyrie is locked into a $18 to 20 mil per year for the next 2 years ( which is less than what IT will likely get on the FA market next season ), I get why he wanted Kyrie.

    Did the Celtics overpay? Sure, they did......but I understand why they made that trade.....he was the best Player that the Celtics could have gotten over the next season.
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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Question, if IT is healthy does that make the trade bad?

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I don't get why some of you are wondering why Ainge wanted to pay up big for Kyrie while not giving up a similar king's ransom for PG13 or Butler. For the reasons that Ryan has pointed out....which should be obvious....as well as the fact that Kyrie is locked into a $18 to 20 mil per year for the next 2 years ( which is less than what IT will likely get on the FA market next season ), I get why he wanted Kyrie.

    Did the Celtics overpay? Sure, they did......but I understand why they made that trade.....he was the best Player that the Celtics could have gotten over the next season.
    I understand PG, but not Butler.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Letting IT walk doesn't change anything. Kyrie can walk the following year.

    I agree, don't sign IT to extension if you think he not worth it.
    The Celtics got something in return for a valuable asset that will make them better for the next 2 seasons. Sure, Kyrie can walk after this year.....but there's a good chance that he will stay. It's Boston, he will likely be the Leader of the Team, they have a good coach, he will get the MAX and he has a very solid Team to lead over the next couple of years. It's possible that he can bolt.....but IMHO I doubt that he does.
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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    I understand PG, but not Butler.
    Agree to disagree.....it's debatable. Overall, I can see some arguments that Butler is a better Player than Kyrie.....but this question is more of a question that can be asked in a vacuum, where you don't take into considerations other factors.

    To me, the difference between Butler ( or PG13 ) versus Kyrie ( from an individual Player POV ) isn't the difference between comparing an average Starter and an Elite Player. At most, the difference is comparing 2 Near Elite Players where one is better than the other ( but not by that much ). When taking that into consideration....where both Players are comparable.....or at least talking about Players that belong in the same proverbial "ball parks".....you have to take into consideration other factors.

    Given that the Celtics didn't want to retain IT ( whose not really a PG but a super Scoring but small Guard ), will have a need to fill the Starting PG position, the Celtics already have 2 other Forwards that MUST get minutes and also plays the same position as Butler.....Kyrie better fits the Celtics for the long term based off of positional need.
    Last edited by CableKC; 08-25-2017 at 07:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    The Celtics got something in return for a valuable asset that will make them better for the next 2 seasons. Sure, Kyrie can walk after this year.....but there's a good chance that he will stay. It's Boston, he will likely be the Leader of the Team, they have a good coach, he will get the MAX and he has a very solid Team to lead over the next couple of years. It's possible that he can bolt.....but IMHO I doubt that he does.
    Lol, we have no idea what Kyrie will do. This news came out of nowhere.

    The Celtics could have had an easy road to the finals had they not handed Lebron an elite offensive player, elite 3 and D player and at least a rotational big and the Brooklyn pick.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Agree to disagree.....it's debatable. Overall, I can see some arguments that Butler is a better Player than Kyrie.....but this question is more of a question that can be asked in a vacuum, where you don't take into considerations other factors.

    To me, the difference between Butler ( or PG13 ) versus Kyrie ( from an individual Player POV ) isn't the difference between comparing an average Starter and an Elite Player. At most, the difference is comparing 2 Near Elite Players where one is better than the other ( but not by that much ). When taking that into consideration....where both Players are comparable.....or at least talking about Players that belong in the same proverbial "ball parks".....you have to take into consideration other factors.

    Given that the Celtics didn't want to retain IT ( whose not really a PG but a super Scoring but small Guard ), will have a need to fill the Starting PG position, the Celtics already have 2 other Forwards that MUST get minutes and also plays the same position as Butler.....Kyrie better fits the Celtics for the long term based off of positional need.
    To be clear, I don't care about IT walking. I don't care about Butler or PG. If IT is healthy enough to be traded, then he is healthy enough to be considered a go for this season. So I would rather keep assets than swap all that for 1 year of Kyrie after IT contract is up.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Lol, we have no idea what Kyrie will do. This news came out of nowhere.

    The Celtics could have had an easy road to the finals had they not handed Lebron an elite offensive player, elite 3 and D player and at least a rotational big and the Brooklyn pick.
    Both teams made out with a kings ransom where one Team clearly overpaid.. But who truly won the trade is debatable and we will see what happens. I'm not saying that the Celtics didn't overpaid and we have no clue whether there would be other Near Elite or Elite Players that would have become available between now and the trade deadline, but I can see why Ainge pulled the trigger on making the trade.
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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    To be clear, I don't care about IT walking. I don't care about Butler or PG. If IT is healthy enough to be traded, then he is healthy enough to be considered a go for this season. So I would rather keep assets than swap all that for 1 year of Kyrie after IT contract is up.
    Outside of the Brooklyn's pick....IT and Crowder were considered expendable to Ainge.

    Ainge would have rather have 2 years of Kyrie, make a fundamental change to the lineup and start to develop Tatum and Jaylen than another year of IT and Crowder ( which got them no where for the last 2 seasons ). In the end, he saw an opportunity to get a Near Elite Starting quality PG and he went for it instead of holding onto the assets ( which he's been doing for the last couple of seasons ) for another 6+ months to see what he can get.
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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Outside of the Brooklyn's pick....IT and Crowder were considered expendable to Ainge.

    Ainge would have rather have 2 years of Kyrie, make a fundamental change to the lineup and start to develop Tatum and Jaylen than another year of IT and Crowder ( which got them no where for the last 2 seasons ). In the end, he saw an opportunity to get a Near Elite Starting quality PG and he went for it instead of holding onto the assets ( which he's been doing for the last couple of seasons ) for another 6+ months to see what he can get.
    Man, I don't care if they were expendable. Not the point at all.

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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Man, I don't care if they were expendable. Not the point at all.
    Please elaborate then. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything....but clearly I am missing the point.

    Is it that you think that the Celtics helped out the Cavs by overpaying for Kyrie?
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    Default Re: Danny Ainge finally blows his load and gets....Kyrie Irving?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Please elaborate then. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything....but clearly I am missing the point.

    Is it that you think that the Celtics helped out the Cavs by overpaying for Kyrie?
    Lol, I've got tons of posts elaborating.

    I think Kyrie is a great get for any team. I think the Celtics could be better with Kyrie. But the Cavs could also be better with IT, Crowder and Zizic. And with the pick Cavs may be able to put something together to keep Lebron away from the Lakers.

    So the Cavs could have simply imploded this year, Lebron walks and Celtics have at least a finals trip this year and the East to themselves for years to come, to now the Cavs are sitting pretty for now and the future. Not to mention, they may only have one year of Kyrie to show for it all after IT's contract is up.

    All I'm saying is, the worst case scenario is very bad for the Celtics. And it's not that unlikely. Healthy IT.
    Last edited by freddielewis14; 08-25-2017 at 09:04 PM.

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