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Thread: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....6a13cd05.html

    Mavs looking into trading Finley to East

    Option could be win-win: financial relief, another player


    02:11 AM CDT on Sunday, July 3, 2005


    By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News


    Since news broke of a provision in the NBA's new collective bargaining agreement that allows a team to waive a player and be relieved of his luxury-tax burden, the Mavericks have been flooded with inquiries about Michael Finley.

    The bottom line is unlikely to change – Finley, in all probability, has played his last game as a Maverick.

    But the mechanism for his departure could change. Although the possibility still exists that the Mavericks could use the "amnesty" clause in the new CBA, president of basketball operations Donnie Nelson said they also have been approached with trade possibilities that could accomplish the same thing: provide financial relief for the team, as well as the bonus of acquiring an asset in return.

    "Our first choice would be to keep Fin in a Mavericks uniform until he retires," Nelson said. "But as we run through the creative options, there seems to be less and less prospect of that happening. We have heard from a lot of people."

    The Mavericks have been exploring all their options since they received word of the new clause in the CBA, which is expected to be signed by July 22. Any team can use a one-time exception to waive a player and not have that player count against any luxury tax the owner must pay.

    The team would still have to pay the player's contract – over $51 million in Finley's case – but could save that amount in luxury taxes. The luxury tax has been imposed twice and owners expect it to be in effect in coming years, too. When teams exceed a certain payroll, they have to pay a dollar-for-dollar tax above that threshold.

    Owner Mark Cuban could save $51 million in tax alone on Finley's deal.

    Although that possibility is tempting, a more palatable solution would be to trade Finley for a player or players with shorter-term contracts, preferably an Eastern Conference team that would afford Finley a chance to win a championship.

    There is another reason trading Finley might be feasible. The new CBA has restructured the trade rules that allow teams to match up salaries within 125 percent of each other for trade purposes. Previously, combined salaries had to be within 115 percent.

    When speaking of Finley's $15.9 million salary this season, that means an extra $1.5 million buffer on matching up salaries for trade purposes.

    What kind of players could the Mavs expect if they were to trade Finley rather than waive him?

    A sampling of possibilities, if the Mavericks are intent on shipping him to an Eastern contender:

    • Indiana could package the contract of Reggie Miller, who has announced his retirement, or Scot Pollard with Austin Croshere and get in the range of Finley's contract.

    • Miami has Eddie Jones, whose contract ($30 million for two years) is similar to Finley's, but one year shorter.

    If the Bulls want to bring back the hometown hero, they could package Antonio Davis and Eric Piatkowski.

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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    I just don't see them trading Reggie's contract. Croshere and Pollard are garbage. The only thing attractive about Pollard is his contract coming off of the books.

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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Reggie will never be associated with any franchise other than Indiana, even if it is only a contract.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Whoever wrote this needs to get in grip with reality.

    With the Pacers payroll as it is, they are looking for relief, not add idioticly overpaid contracts to the mix.

    Relief at end of this season for P's: Reggie and Scott's contrazct ( 12 million total) and at the start of the season; 10 million for waving Cro under the new CBA amnesty.

    And he seriously thinks the P's think Fin is worth 102 million dollar for 3 years to them????


    blegh, they should fire people who write crap like that.
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Able, I totally agree.

  6. #6
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    all this is, is posturing by the mavs.....they saying theyve had numerous inquiries....bull****....they are trying to drum up any interest they can to get anything in return they possibly could....as mentioned...anything would be better than waiving him and paying him his full contract while he plays for someone else....this is pie in the sky thinking and propaganda.....hoping they will bait somebody into biting.....but noone will....well...i guess theres always the raptors.....

  7. #7
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    And he seriously thinks the P's think Fin is worth 102 million dollar for 3 years to them????
    I'm pretty sure that's not the way it would work. The Mavs have to pay the remaining amount on his contract, but he could go play somewhere else for substantially less. Like Dale Davis. But I may have my facts confused.

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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Why not trade a couple guys like Pollard & Croshere to get Finley & then waive Finley?

    Without the trade the best we could do would be to waive Croshere.

    Doing the trade for us would allow us to "consolidate" a handful of bad contracts into 1 easy to waive one.

    Granted the duo of Croshere & Pollard isn't gonna get it done. The Mavs would want more than that.

    Bender? Who knows?

    Draft picks? More than likely.

    Would you trade Croshere, Bender & a #1 for Finley, only to waive him?

  9. #9
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter
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    Why not trade a couple guys like Pollard & Croshere to get Finley & then waive Finley?

    Without the trade the best we could do would be to waive Croshere.

    Doing the trade for us would allow us to "consolidate" a handful of bad contracts into 1 easy to waive one.

    Granted the duo of Croshere & Pollard isn't gonna get it done. The Mavs would want more than that.

    Bender? Who knows?

    Draft picks? More than likely.

    Would you trade Croshere, Bender & a #1 for Finley, only to waive him?
    From a business standpoint, I like that a lot.

  10. #10
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    u dont think a team that is getting ready to waive the guy and pay the remainder of his contract for nothing, wouldnt take croshere-whose contract expires in 2 years and would be able to play minutes for them, and pollard-whose contract expires???????

    they would take that so fast u wouldnt have time to blink....let alone a 1st round draft pick....

    now stop and think...really stop and think....why in the world would we want to do that....all that would do is leave us in salary cap hell for another year longer.....it also would make the second year worse.....

    waiving finleys contract does nothing but cost the franchise even more money while being in salary cap hell longer....

    there is no way in the world the pacers do that....they will not even think for one moment about trading for finley....for anything....i dont care if they traded bender and croshere or anything else....no way....

    this is not a contest to see how much u can waive....the mavs are one of the few teams that are in worse shape than us as far as the cap goes....the last thing we are gonna do is trade places with them....and thats all that it would be.....

  11. #11
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter
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    Why not trade a couple guys like Pollard & Croshere to get Finley & then waive Finley?

    Without the trade the best we could do would be to waive Croshere.

    Doing the trade for us would allow us to "consolidate" a handful of bad contracts into 1 easy to waive one.

    Granted the duo of Croshere & Pollard isn't gonna get it done. The Mavs would want more than that.

    Bender? Who knows?

    Draft picks? More than likely.

    Would you trade Croshere, Bender & a #1 for Finley, only to waive him?
    While I am not opposed to Bender being traded or waived for that matter, I am dead opposed to the trade of Croshere, Bender & a # 1 for money relief for the Simons.

    We are NOT fans of their money, we are fans of the team & I ask in what possible way does that improve the team in an on floor capacity?

    We still would not be under the salary cap so we still would not be able to make trades without the matching $$ provision & we still would not be able to sign any more free agents than we could right now.

    In fact, putting Finley on our payroll just would add to our overall salary cap for another year.

    Yes, I understand that this is a business & that the Simons should be able to make some money or at the very least not lose a lot of money. But at the end of the day none of us are going to stand on monument circle & have a parade & "thank you" day for them getting under some imaginary $$ figure.

    We got David Harrison with the last pick in the first round. Would anybody be happy to give up a # 1 pick just to give it away?

    This wasn't intended to be a blast at you Jose, I know you were just throwing things out there to see what sticks.

    But I think there are to many times we sit & fret over an imaginary $$ figure instead of making the on court situation better.

    I don't know about the rest of you but I put my season ticket money in to see the team give it's all to win, not to just make the Simons more money & trust me I have nothing against the Simons. In fact they are the best owners in the world.

    But if I thought for a min. that they were more concerned with making money than they were with winning I wouldn't support the team with my money. I might watch for free on t.v. but no way would I shell out the thousands of $$ a year I do.

    The Simons are on record with two things.

    1. They don't want to pay the luxuary tax

    2. They will pay the luxuary tax if management says they need to


    There is a hell of a lot of differance between not wanting to pay the tax & refusing to.

    They are in the Not wanting to pay the tax mode.

    They happen to have a very good steward of their money in charge of the franchise so even though we have always been over the salary cap, I don't think they've ever paid a tax.


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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    I'm pretty sure that's not the way it would work. The Mavs have to pay the remaining amount on his contract, but he could go play somewhere else for substantially less. Like Dale Davis. But I may have my facts confused.
    As the writer is proposing a trade, we would get Fin's salary in return to deal with, only if we waive him under the amnesty would we not be in LT land, but then we have simply gained more to pay no matter what for nothing at all, and we are paying his salary while he plays for the Pistons for the vet min, to add to his already paid for salary.

    Some things to think about before everyone starts writing like the dimwit above:

    1. a trade remains a trade, whatever salary comes back needs to be paid, one way or another.
    2. In exchange for the amnesty to paying LT over a salary you will still have to pay the player's salary while he can not play for you, the player is free to sign wherever he wants for whatever he wants, it will only be added to his salary he is receiving from the team that waives him under the amnesty.

    3. In the given proposition the P's can offer Fin the mid-level if they want, and not loose a penny more, while still waibing Cro to get under the LT, while Dallas still pays Fin for the next 3 years 51 million, but not the LT over that amount.

    So this entire "trade" idea is A: useless for the Mavs as they do not get LT relief (they get players back, but they still count against the LT) it only saves them on the duration of the money

    it is useless for the P's as it only adds a ridiculous amount of salary we will HAVE to waive in order to not pay the 51 million dollar in salary PLUS 51 million dollar in LT
    So what does the trade net the Pacers, 51 milion dollar in salary to pay over the next 3 years with no player to show for.
    What do the Pacers loose: 2 contracts totalling 12 million that end this year (real cap & salary relief) plus one waived salary of 21 million over 2 years counting against the LT.
    in numbers: Pacers "give" away 33 million to pay 51 million with no players left, while if they do nothing they still have the "services" of Cro and Polly.

    Get real.

    There is no way on Gods green earth that such a thought is pondered over by PS&E longer then 0.01 second.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    One of the very few times I agree with able on anything.

    If the Mavs want to trade Finley, then they would have to be willing to pay the luxury tax, in which case they'd be better off KEEPING him in the first place.

    The only possible option would be for the Mavs to find a take who'd trade contracts plus a first-rounder for finley, which probably won't happen. In that scenario, the Mavs could cut whomever they received, and they'd at least get a pick out of the deal.

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  14. #14
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    there is an outside...and i do mean outside chance, that miami might consider trading eddie jones for finley...if they feel finley would help them more the next year or 2 than jones would....jones has 2 years left on a contract that pays him a similar amount to finley.....so dallas would save the one year....and to me finley is better than jones right now....so who knows....its very unlikely at best....

    now...one thing that might be possible though not likely....and we havent gotten all the details yet-so the cba might try to eliminate this sort of loophole....but, potentially two teams in luxury tax territory could get together on something....something like this maybe.....and there arent many options that would work..

    philly and dallas agree to a trade....finley is traded for chris webber....they both have 3 years left on their contracts....so the trade is consummated and then each player is waived.....and in turn each player resigns with their original team, thereby allowing both teams to avoid the luxury tax penalty....and the players (depending on how the cba addresses this issue) stand to make a few more bucks, but the teams gladly do it because they end up spending substantially less on the player due to saving all the luxury tax dollars....its pretty convoluted....and i wouldnt be surprised if the language of the cba somehow addresses this option....but as we know things now, it would be possible....its just hard to find the right two players....they need tohave similar contracts both in dollar amount as well as the years left....and the pacers would not fit the bill in trading with the mavs in this case.....

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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Finley on the Heat would make them a lot better.

    Just offering Finley for Jones and a 1st round pick and hopefully the Heat would do that. The money is less over each year for the Heat, while Dallas gets out of Eddie's contract faster than they do for Finley.

    And Eddie could go back to the Heat when he got cut by Dallas.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    philly and dallas agree to a trade....finley is traded for chris webber....they both have 3 years left on their contracts....so the trade is consummated and then each player is waived.....and in turn each player resigns with their original team, thereby allowing both teams to avoid the luxury tax penalty....and the players (depending on how the cba addresses this issue) stand to make a few more bucks, but the teams gladly do it because they end up spending substantially less on the player due to saving all the luxury tax dollars....
    LOL...very sneaky foretaz

  17. #17

    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    Whoever wrote this needs to get in grip with reality.

    With the Pacers payroll as it is, they are looking for relief, not add idioticly overpaid contracts to the mix.

    Relief at end of this season for P's: Reggie and Scott's contrazct ( 12 million total) and at the start of the season; 10 million for waving Cro under the new CBA amnesty.

    And he seriously thinks the P's think Fin is worth 102 million dollar for 3 years to them????


    blegh, they should fire people who write crap like that.
    The maths not quite what you think it is. Finley is owed 51 million over 3 years Cro is 9 this year, Pollard is 6. If we package Cro and Pollard to Mavs we are even this year and have the same payroll. Next year Reggies contract comes off and Cro final year so that is another 15M from the payroll the third year is where we get hammered on Fins contract which is about 18 Million. We are far enough under that the Pacers would not have to pay that dollar for dollar tax. Also Benders contract comes off in 2 years so its not as bad as it sounds in that third year.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    I'm gonna bet there is some clause that would disallow trading for a player and then waiving him. The intent of the ETO was to allow a club to void themselves of a mistake THEY MADE, IOW an albatross contract.
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  19. #19
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    bottom line is, any chance of finley coming here ended when we drafted granger....we simply have no need for him...we have jack, f. jones, artest, and granger on the wing with jj being available for us to resign....throw in that bender can play the 3 as well....and if saras is signed he will get some minutes at the 2 as well.....there are no minutes available....especially for guy who is on the downside of his career, has definitely lost some ability, and has 3 years and 51 million left on his contract....

    no way....no way in hell.....

    and to bring him here to waive still doesnt eliminate his nitemare contract from having to be paid by us as well as it strangling our salary cap....if we want that im sure we can find another 16 million dollar a year player that can probably produce a bit more than finley and actually get something out of it....

    as bad as austins contract may be....its nothing compared to finleys....dallas made their mistake....the pacers arent gonna help them out of it....doesnt make sense

  20. #20

    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    I'm gonna bet there is some clause that would disallow trading for a player and then waiving him. The intent of the ETO was to allow a club to void themselves of a mistake THEY MADE, IOW an albatross contract.
    So you think if the Pacers traded Cro & Pollard to the Mavs the Mavs turn around and waive Cro to save money. Probably true, as Bird said most teams will probably wait till Oct 1st to waive a player, weighing all their options first.

    Dallas loses VanHorn and Terrys contract after next year saving them 23 Million more. If they trade Fins contract they could make some moves after next year
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    I agree with Foretaz, if were going to take on 51M why not a player with upside. However I don't think trading Cro & Bender would be that bad a deal for us we owe those 2 about 32M over the next 2 years. After this next year Reggie and pollard come off making us 12M less next year
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  22. #22
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by aceace
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    The maths not quite what you think it is. Finley is owed 51 million over 3 years Cro is 9 this year, Pollard is 6. If we package Cro and Pollard to Mavs we are even this year and have the same payroll. Next year Reggies contract comes off and Cro final year so that is another 15M from the payroll the third year is where we get hammered on Fins contract which is about 18 Million. We are far enough under that the Pacers would not have to pay that dollar for dollar tax. Also Benders contract comes off in 2 years so its not as bad as it sounds in that third year.
    Let me start by saying that it was not intended as a totally accurate collection of data, but a show of reason why, nonetheless if yiou appreciate the math, you will appreciate me correcting you a wee bit and putting down the numbers as we can know them.

    Current Pacers payroll 74 million dollar, pls add another 6 (at least) to contract our 1st round draft and the FA's we need to take care of and/or Saras, Henceforth for 05-06 we are looking at 80 million dollar

    Though Pollard and Miller are ending contracts, at the start of the new season we will by increases alone be at 72 million and we need to replace, have a draftpick so we are likely back up to 77 million dollar before the real start of the 06-07 season.
    Cro and Bender end that season, 17 million coming of, but increases will bring us to approx 64 million before we even sign anyone to replace those two, so 70 million would not be a bad guess at the start of the 07-08 season.

    In all likelyhood we will be "within" the "cliff" provision for the LT in the 3rd year we are looking at.


    So we pay LT in 05-06 of about (assuming LT starts at 58 million) 22 million dollar. In the next 19 million


    Now keep in mind there is a cliff, so with some luck we will not have to pay LT in the 3rd year

    I already showed that dropping Cro makes sure we will not pay LT in the second year, but if we are very lucky not even in the 1st though reason says we will be in LT land this coming season.


    The "cost" for Pollard, Cro and Miller in those 3 years:
    year 1: 21.5 million LT possible: 22 million
    year 2: 9.5 million LT possible 19 million
    year 3: 0 no LT

    Now we trade Cro and Polly for Fin, 15 million this year.
    (assuming we waive Finley straight away so he can join the Pistons on our expense)
    our payroll = 80 million LT 7 million
    year 2: our payroll= 83 million LT 10 million
    year 3: 80 million LT 7 million

    payroll over 3 years in case 1: (80/77/70) 227 million LT 41 million = 268 mill
    payroll over 3 years in case 2: (80/83/80) 243 million LT 24 million = 267 mill


    Consider that we have NO players to show for in that 2nd case scenario and nothing to trade to GET players, we are far worse off.

    In the case we keep Fin to play (as suggested in the article and more likely to be a clause in the amnesty rule) then our situation doesn't "remain equal" be it that we have no one playing for all that money, but instead we deteriorate fast:

    our payroll = 80 million LT 22 million
    year 2: our payroll= 83 million LT 25 million
    year 3: 80 million LT 20 million

    making the total: 243+67= 310 million dollar.

    QED on the "trade" we loose 40+ million dollars and if we follow my scenario of waiving Cro; we "save" as opposed to doing this trade another 20 million (at least).
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  23. #23

    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    We got David Harrison with the last pick in the first round. Would anybody be happy to give up a # 1 pick just to give it away?
    Couldn't agree more. But I thought I remembered you favored the Bender to LA salary dump with Indiana giving up its first rounder. If I remembered wrong, apologies. Won't be the first bad remembrance. Ask my wife.

    Good analysis on the Simon's and the luxury tax. I expect the team to be reasonable in how they handle the team's finances, but I don't want the team to go into a sky is falling mode, if it appears a luxury tax is certain.

  24. #24
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    I'm pretty sure that's not the way it would work. The Mavs have to pay the remaining amount on his contract, but he could go play somewhere else for substantially less. Like Dale Davis. But I may have my facts confused.

    I think that's correct.

    I don't know where Able got 102 million dollars from. Finley is owed just over 51 million for the next 3 seasons.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Finley might be traded to East, (Pacers mention)

    Ok let me clarify my thoughts, by next season we probably won't be the third highest payroll, many teams need to sign their free agents, draft picks and so forth. I would never trade for Finley just to waive him. Dallas has alot of scorers and Fins point reduction this past season has something to do with that (Terry, VanHorn, Nowitzki). My point was If we packaged Cro & Bender for Fin we get a SG back thats 32 and got a few years left to help us in a win now situation. Cro & Bender are contracts that offer us no help right now. Fin makes roughly this year and next what Cro & Bender will make. If this is about salary reduction due to LT then just give Cro his walking papers and be done with it. Take a chance with Bender and Granger being the SG/SF backups. If we need a SG and can live with 75M team salary then trade Cro & Bender get someone who can start and provide immediate help on the perimeter. If Bird/Walsh think Fin is washed up and done then they won't bother bringing him here. When Pollard & Regs contract expire after this year we get 12M of cap relief for next.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

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