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Thread: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

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    Default The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    http://www.isportsweb.com/2017/08/03...ams-can-learn/

    All relationships donít end the same. Some end after multiple volatile arguments. The type of arguments where your neighbors give you a concerned look every time they see you, and you must tell them that everything is all right, when deep down you know nothing is right.

    These are the type of endings to relationships that we read about on celebrity gossip websites. Theyíre dramatic, explosive, and easily catch peopleís attention. However, this isnít the only way relationships end.

    Other relationships can end subtly. You canít really pinpoint when the people involved started to grow apart, but both parties know that the best days are behind them. One person might project their frustration about the situation. They may even publicly speak about the idea of being with someone else while youíre still together. The fun moments donít feel as great as they used to, and it feels like the disappointing times occur more frequently. The relationship slowly fades away. And while one person may try their best to make things work, itís clear that itís best for both sides to go their separate ways, before things get uglier than they already are.

    The latter situation is where the Indiana Pacers found themselves in their relationship with Paul George. The Three-Time All-NBA Team selection reportedly informed the Indiana Pacers that he wasnít going to return to the franchise after the 2017-18 season. He expressed strong interest in returning to his hometown during 2018 free agency to play for the Los Angeles Lakers.

    In other words, Paul George informed his partner that he was going to leave them. He told them exactly when he planned to leave and that thereís someone else that he wants to be with. Fortunately, for the Pacers this isnít the first time this happened in the NBA and the Pacers had evidence of what needed to happen to protect their future.

    During the 2010-2011 season, Carmelo Anthony made it clear that he wasnít going to return to the Denver Nuggets after his contract expired. The Nuggets did their best to mend the relationship, but Melo was unwilling to sign an extension with the team. He pushed for the Nuggets to trade for him to the New York Knicks before the trade deadline.

    The trade obviously went through and the Nuggets gained the proper amount of assets and players in return for a star of Meloís caliber. This is not only why they nearly had an identical winning percentage in their first two seasons without Melo (64.1%) than their last two seasons with him (65.2%), but also accomplished their greatest regular season as a franchise since joining the NBA two seasons removed from Meloís departure.

    Like the Nuggets, the Pacers tried to mend the relationship with Paul George. During the 2016 offseason, they added key veterans (Thaddeus Young, Al Jefferson, and Jeff Teague) to the roster to surround George with the talent and experience necessary to contend at the top of the Eastern Conference. They even went as far as re-signing former Pacer, and Georgeís former teammate, Lance Stephenson at the end of the season for a late season, playoff push. But, the move was too little, too late.

    Although he became a better player, George couldnít replicate the team success that he had earlier in his career. The writing was on the wall; the 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 seasons, the campaigns the Pacers appeared in back-to-back Eastern Conference Finals, were the best years he was going to have with the franchise. In a league in which the teams competing for championships have or are attempting to form a big three (and in the Golden State Warriorsí case, a big four), George was the Pacersí only star. That wasnít going to cut it for a player that claimed competing at the highest level is his main priority, and quite simply, it wasnít going to make him happy.

    Indiana Pacers
    The Indiana Pacers received Domantas Sabonis (3) and Victor Oladipo (5) from the Oklahoma City Thunder in the Paul George trade, and Pacer fans shouldnít hold a grudge against George for feeling this way. He gave the Pacers organization his best for seven seasons. Although he didnít make it easy for the Pacers to trade him by being so outspoken about wanting to join the Lakers as a free agent in 2018, he shouldnít be blamed for how poorly the situation was handled. The only people that should be blamed for the poor return in the George trade are the Pacersí executives.

    Recently hired General Manager Kevin Pritchard shouldnít have attempted to make it appear as if Georgeís desires to leave werenít apparent in the first place. Pritchard, responding to George formally informing the franchise that he didnít intend to stay with the Pacers long term, went on record stating that, ďIf we would have known this a few months ago, I think we could have been more prepared. Becoming public was a big issue.Ē

    The thing is, they did know months ago. It was reported in February that barring a miraculous title contending playoff run, he intended to join the Lakers. Why else would the organization dangle his name in trade rumors before the trade deadline, rumors which furthered aggravated George, if they didnít have a clue about his intentions? Not trading George before the deadline hurt their chances of receiving a great package in return for him. But, it wasnít the most appalling aspect of how the Pacers handled the situation.

    Plenty has been said about how little in return the Pacers received for George. And while the return was awful, the reasoning behind the trade was egregious. Nobody can make a valid argument that the Thunderís trade package was better than the reported offers on the table from the Los Angeles Lakers, Boston Celtics, Denver Nuggets, or Cleveland Cavaliers. When a team trades a star away, they usually end up with the short end of the stick (i.e. the DeMarcus Cousins and Jimmy Butler trades). But, the Pacers being fleeced in the manner that they did is unacceptable.

    Instead of having top draft picks or young assets on cheap contracts, the Pacers are now stuck with Victor Oladipo, whose production is unlikely to meet the expectations of his $84 million contract, and Domantas Sabonis, who progressively became worse during the 2016-17 season. The Pacers were too emotional regarding their handling of the Paul George situation and were not worried enough about doing what was best for team. They didnít want to give George what he wanted, and were determined to send him out of the Eastern Conference. And because of it, their future appears to be lackluster, at best.

    The Cleveland Cavaliers find themselves in a similar situation with guard Kyrie Irving (2) as the Pacers did with Paul George. Photo Credit: Kelley L Cox-USA TODAY Sports
    Other NBA teams can learn a lesson from how Pacers operated. The star players (especially in smaller markets) are the ones in control of the NBA, not the owners. Franchises need to make sure they do everything in their power to make sure their stars are happy and donít feel the need to leave town to feel fulfilled.

    This is especially important for the Cavaliers to keep in mind as they continue to sort through their Kyrie Irving drama. Although their circumstances are different, there are many similarities in how the relationship between the two star players and their franchises deteriorated. The Cavaliers must be careful; with LeBron Jamesí having a player option after the 2017-18 season, and signs leading many to believe he wonít return to Cleveland, itís imperative that they handle the Kyrie situation with the maturity and keep whatís best for the organization in mind. Because if they donít, theyíll end up just like their division-rival; hopeless and mediocre.

    But then again, it isnít like that would be new for them.
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Ouch, that was harsh.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    This article was complete and utter trash. It spoke a lot and said absolutely nothing and was filled with vague innuendo's and speculation.


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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    the author; About Khobi Price

    Northern Illinois University Class of 2019. Aspiring Sports Broadcaster covering the Chicago Bulls, Indiana Pacers, Milwaukee Bucks, and New England Patriots.


    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    The article goes against the popular opinion on here that Pritch hit a home run on this trade under the circumstances which I don't agree with.
    I do agree with the article that the PG situation was handled wrong but to do that justice the writer should have went into how Larry handled Paul during the retooling process. If you plan to build around a player today IMO you have to include that franchise player in the process of building the team much more than Larry did. The attitude that "he don't make decisions around here" is simply a my way or the highway type of thinking and it doesn't work.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    The article goes against the popular opinion on here that Pritch hit a home run on this trade under the circumstances which I don't agree with.
    I do agree with the article that the PG situation was handled wrong but to do that justice the writer should have went into how Larry handled Paul during the retooling process. If you plan to build around a player today IMO you have to include that franchise player in the process of building the team much more than Larry did. The attitude that "he don't make decisions around here" is simply a my way or the highway type of thinking and it doesn't work.
    Yeah I don't know about that. It stinks to lose Paul and all, but I'd rather have Bird making decisions for the franchise than Paul George. A hundred times over, even. Playing basketball and putting together a winning team/culture/franchise are all different things. Paul could do one of those. Larry did at least two before things came crashing down.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    For a young man in only his second year of college, I thought he did a good job. I don't really agree with it and it is a pure opinion piece with no personal sources, but I've seen a lot worse written by experienced journalists.
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    This article was complete and utter trash. It spoke a lot and said absolutely nothing and was filled with vague innuendo's and speculation.
    I disagree, I think he had a point about KP wanting so bad to put PG in the WC
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Premise is that they had better offers and they did not. Denver was close depending on your opinion of Gary Harris vs Dipo and Sabonis vs whoever you'd take at Denvers late lottery. I don't think it was close I think the oKC deal was best, but at least that's a real argument.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I disagree, I think he had a point about KP wanting so bad to put PG in the WC
    I haven't seen any evidence of a single trade offer that is definitively better. In fact, the only other offer I've seen was the one with Gary Harris and the 12th pick, which is arguable either way (I don't think it's better). Still, much better idea to take a similar trade with OKC and then sit back with a margarita and watch the Cavs implode (which is priceless).
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Some (not me) believe that Paul George is a franchise cornerstone, and a truly top 10 player.

    If you walk into this conversation with that belief, no trade outside of a trade for another franchise level player is going to seem like a good deal... that or multiple high level draft picks.

    The team was in a no-win circumstance, but certainly puts Pritchard in the early position of wanting to prove his worth after having to deal with this turd burger to start. I'm happy about that to be honest. I think we'll see Pritchard's best.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I disagree, I think he had a point about KP wanting so bad to put PG in the WC
    Based on what? First KP is on record saying that if the supposed deals that everybody believed about Boston were on the table he would have taken it. Other than that?

    I however think it is entirely appropriate to not trade your star player in your own conference and not new or unique to this situation. In particular I believe that KP had a duty to not make a super team in our own conference so yeah I'm on board with that notion however there is not one shred of evidence that supports that he even did this other than me believing it. What there is evidence of is that he took a trade that brought back immediate assets, you can argue all you want about the value of them, that he believed will help the pacers in the immediate future and for years to come. He may be wrong but that is what we know.

    This article say's none of that.


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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Is it gospel that a high draft pick will be a better player than Victor Oladipo? After reading this article, one would think that we got a bust like Trey Burke instead of a proven solid player in Vic
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Based on what? First KP is on record saying that if the supposed deals that everybody believed about Boston were on the table he would have taken it. Other than that?

    I however think it is entirely appropriate to not trade your star player in your own conference and not new or unique to this situation. In particular I believe that KP had a duty to not make a super team in our own conference so yeah I'm on board with that notion however there is not one shred of evidence that supports that he even did this other than me believing it. What there is evidence of is that he took a trade that brought back immediate assets, you can argue all you want about the value of them, that he believed will help the pacers in the immediate future and for years to come. He may be wrong but that is what we know.

    This article say's none of that.
    Really? You read it right?

    "The Pacers were too emotional regarding their handling of the Paul George situation and were not worried enough about doing what was best for team. They didn’t want to give George what he wanted, and were determined to send him out of the Eastern Conference. And because of it, their future appears to be lackluster, at best."
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Really? You read it right?

    "The Pacers were too emotional regarding their handling of the Paul George situation and were not worried enough about doing what was best for team. They didn’t want to give George what he wanted, and were determined to send him out of the Eastern Conference. And because of it, their future appears to be lackluster, at best."
    That is just fantasy though. What is he using to back this up? What was the best offer for the team that Pritchard passed up because he was so scorned that he took the OKC offer?

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    The article goes against the popular opinion on here that Pritch hit a home run on this trade under the circumstances which I don't agree with.
    I don't think that people are saying we hit a home run on the trade. When you're forced to trade a player as good as Paul George then you have to forget about home runs. Heck, you have to forget about winning the trade entirely. You can never win a trade when you trade away a player of PG's caliber. That's why we cannot really judge the trade like we would judge a trade we made willingly. What I've heard most people on here say about the trade was that the return was at least good and not a poo-poo platter like Lakers package.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I do agree with the article that the PG situation was handled wrong but to do that justice the writer should have went into how Larry handled Paul during the retooling process. If you plan to build around a player today IMO you have to include that franchise player in the process of building the team much more than Larry did. The attitude that "he don't make decisions around here" is simply a my way or the highway type of thinking and it doesn't work.
    Absolutely. Bird is 100% to blame for PG's decision to move on. He is the one that failed to build a team around him after he broke his leg and he is the one who alienated him in the first place with his moronic comments (and the way he treated the members of our ECF runs, both players and coaches).

    Thankfully, Bird no longer makes any decisions around here. Bird did a lot of damage to the franchise in his last few years so let's hope that Pritch can fix them.
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    I agree that the offers we're talking about weren't much better but considering what we received I'd much rather have waited to see if we could have convinced Boston to give up next year's Nets pick or Cleveland to come up with a better offer. I know we didn't want to lose out on Collison but he might have still been there a few weeks later.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I agree that the offers we're talking about weren't much better but considering what we received I'd much rather have waited to see if we could have convinced Boston to give up next year's Nets pick or Cleveland to come up with a better offer.
    Do we have any guarantee that Boston would have coughed up those picks? No, we don't. Personally, I'll never believe that those picks were on the table unless Boston actually deals them this off-season for someone like Kyrie. If they decide to hold on to them (which they will, I'm almost sure of it) then that's all the proof we need that they'd never give us those picks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I know we didn't want to lose out on Collison but he might have still been there a few weeks later.
    Come on, mate. You're too smart to believe that this was why we didn't wait on the Celtics. We didn't wait on them because we were afraid that OKC would take their offer off the table if we told them to wait.

    Here's how it would go down if we had waited for the Celtics, in my opinion:

    1) We tell OKC to wait. OKC gives us a short deadline, we cannot meet it because the Celtics haven't signed Gordon Hayward yet and OKC pulls their offer.

    2) Kyrie asks to get traded and the Denver deal is off the table.

    3) The Celtics offer us Jae Crowder, the Clippers pick and the Memphis pick.

    4) No other team fields any offers because they don't want to risk PG being a rental so we're forced to take the Celtics offer.

    Obviously, the above is just a hypothetical. But I really don't believe that waiting would have helped us here. I believe that waiting would have only made our situation worse.
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

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    Come on, mate. You're too smart to believe that this was why we didn't wait on the Celtics. We didn't wait on them because we were afraid that OKC would take their offer off the table if we told them to wait.

    Here's how it would go down if we had waited for the Celtics, in my opinion:

    1) We tell OKC to wait. OKC gives us a short deadline, we cannot meet it because the Celtics haven't signed Gordon Hayward yet and OKC pulls their offer.

    2) Kyrie asks to get traded and the Denver deal is off the table.

    3) The Celtics offer us Jae Crowder, the Clippers pick and the Memphis pick.

    4) No other team fields any offers because they don't want to risk PG being a rental so we're forced to take the Celtics offer.

    Obviously, the above is just a hypothetical. But I really don't believe that waiting would have helped us here. I believe that waiting would have only made our situation worse.
    Sorry, I guess I could have made that part green.
    I personally would have rather waited until at least the day Hayward was signed.
    No one knew that Kyrie was going to ask for a trade but having the Cavs deal fall through because of that could have been a good thing.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Sorry, I guess I could have made that part green.
    I personally would have rather waited until at least the day Hayward was signed.
    No one knew that Kyrie was going to ask for a trade but having the Cavs deal fall through because of that could have been a good thing.
    Gordon Hayward signed on the 14th. We traded PG on the 6th. There's no way that OKC would keep their offer on the table for that long. They would have taken it off the table and we would have been forced to accept a much worse offer.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Gordon Hayward signed on the 14th. We traded PG on the 6th. There's no way that OKC would keep their offer on the table for that long. They would have taken it off the table and we would have been forced to accept a much worse offer.
    I'm not so sure the OKC deal would not have been there a week later you can't know that and no one knows if Boston might have offered more once they signed Hayward or not. I think at worst we'd still have had the Cleveland/Denver deal on the table. I do not think we needed to hurry and trade Paul at the very start of free agency considering that we had no major free agent signing.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I'm not so sure the OKC deal would not have been there a week later you can't know that and no one knows if Boston might have offered more once they signed Hayward or not. I think at worst we'd still have had the Cleveland/Denver deal on the table. I do not think we needed to hurry and trade Paul at the very start of free agency considering that we had no major free agent signing.
    We didn't have major free agent signings but OKC did. Remember, they're trying to do everything they can to keep Westbrook to avoid the exact same situation we had with PG. Had we not taken the trade when we did they would have went after an FA and if they landed him then the deal would probably be off.

    It's true that this whole discussion is hypothetical. We have no way of knowing right now what each team would have done had things went down differently. All we can do as fans is simply to guess what's more likely. And in my opinion, the most likely outcome of us waiting would be to lose out on the OKC deal and get stuck with the much inferior Celtics deal I mentioned above.
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  40. #23
    Long time fan diamonddave00's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Boston had to trade Bradley's 8.8 mil contract for Marcus Morris 5 mil deal just to sign Hayward. After July 1st PG's contract went up to 19.5 mil meaning the Pacers had to take 8-10 mil in contracts in addition to Bradley's expiring deal to complete a trade . That would mean Crowder, and Rozier in addition to Bradley , after Bradley walks following next season is Crowder and Rozier a better package that Oladipo and Sabonis? Boston was not going to give up the Lakers or Nets #1 pick for a risky 1 year rental of PG. Ainge is a hoarder and refused to offer those for a 2 year deal that Jimmy Butler had left.

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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    Boston had to trade Bradley's 8.8 mil contract for Marcus Morris 5 mil deal just to sign Hayward. After July 1st PG's contract went up to 19.5 mil meaning the Pacers had to take 8-10 mil in contracts in addition to Bradley's expiring deal to complete a trade . That would mean Crowder, and Rozier in addition to Bradley , after Bradley walks following next season is Crowder and Rozier a better package that Oladipo and Sabonis? Boston was not going to give up the Lakers or Nets #1 pick for a risky 1 year rental of PG. Ainge is a hoarder and refused to offer those for a 2 year deal that Jimmy Butler had left.
    If the package was Bradley+Crowder+lower 1st round pick and/or Rozier...I would have been fine with that over Olapdio+Sabonis. I assumed that we would have made a strong push to re-sign Bradley ( which I love as a Guard ).

    But I understand why we went with the Dipo+Sabonis deal over what the Celtics could have offered. I think that the Dipo+Sabonis move gave the Pacers more stability for the long term with more upside.
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    Default Re: The Paul George and Indiana Pacers relationship, and what other teams can learn

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    If the package was Bradley+Crowder+lower 1st round pick and/or Rozier...I would have been fine with that over Olapdio+Sabonis. I assumed that we would have made a strong push to re-sign Bradley ( which I love as a Guard ).

    But I understand why we went with the Dipo+Sabonis deal over what the Celtics could have offered. I think that the Dipo+Sabonis move gave the Pacers more stability for the long term with more upside.
    I think the value of knowing we've got a solid player in Oladipo for 4 years, plus a potentially solid player in Sabonis for maybe 7 years is really a big part of the deal. Trading one year of half-hearted play from a guy who may or may not be All-NBA for maybe 10 (combined) years or more from two solid starter/rotation guys while not taking back any real albatross contracts (Dipo might be expensive, but not too much above his actual value), that's a good return.
    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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