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Thread: I think drafting Granger means...

  1. #26
    Expect Delays blanket's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
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    I wouldn't be so confident that Cro won't be here if I were you. Cro, while having a horrendous contract, is a hard worker. He shows up everyday, sits at the end of the bench knowing he could play somewhere else without saying a word. Puts up with the 5 nights of good play and then a DNP-CD crap without complaint. And most importantly, plays through injuries which is alot of our players are suspect of. What Cro does is so much more important than anything Bender has done in 5 years. If they want to waive someone, they should waive Bender. Not saying they will, but Cro has some valuable qualities.
    It's more than a matter of Croshere being overpaid.

    It's one thing to say, "OK, we can see now that we overpaid him, but he's a good guy and does his job without complaint -- plus he's virtually untradable -- so we'll keep him."

    But it's quite another to choose to pay $18M for that mistake both of the next two years (which includes the luxury tax payments his contract requires), when you have the option of waiving him and only having to pay half that amount.

    At the end of the day, the Simons are running a business; and as much as they, Donnie, Larry, and Rick may like to have Croshere around, they won't make the mistake of over paying for his services twice.

    If he doesn't opt out of his contract (yeah, right), get traded (almost as unlikely), or retire (ditto), he WILL be waived.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Clearly the fact that the Simon's are continuing to pay Reggie this year proves that it is more than a business and that loyalty means alot.
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  3. #28

    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    OK, so now I'm a hater to, heck it was boudn to happen anyway, so better sooner then later.

    Nonetheless......

    I appreciate Cro more then (f.i.) Bended, HOWEVER........


    Cro's salary over the next 2 years:
    $8,910,000 $9,560,000 Total : $ 18,470,000
    Cro is 30 years old and will not see meaningfull minutes

    Bender over the next 2 years:
    $7,100,000 $7,810,000 Total $ 14,910,000
    Bender is 24 years old and if he does not get "healthy" he can be kept of the team and dumped on an injured player waiver, which also gives us an exception for getting a replacement.

    The Pacers are looking at an 80 million dollar payroll the coming year and despite Miller and Pollard coming of at year end likely a high 70 million one in the next year.
    If the luxury tax kicks in then there's a dollar for dollar fine to pay.
    The pacers would over two years save approximately 30 million dollar in LT by dropping Cro.

    Loyalty, yes, does he deserve to be cut, no, would we still be paying his salary, yes, would he play elsewhere (his salary minusses what P's have to pay) yes, but in the end the question is does management want to risk 30 million additional dollars to keep Cro.

    I think they wont
    Very interesting point able.

    Not to mention the fact that if the Pacers can probably trade Bender easier than Croshere, if Indiana wants to try and get something out of them before they wavie one of them I think that Bender has more value than Croshere, just simply based on talent.

    I would hate to see Austin go. I understand though that it is a business move. Austin has showed alot of heart, his only problem is he is inconsistant but it's not like he has had a really consistant role the past few years anyways. So it would probably be best for both the team and Austin to wavie him.

    A question I have about Reggie, can the Pacers trade his expiering contract even though Reggie isn't technical on the roster? It sounds and feels very werid saying Reggie traded to...so and so but I could see Bird doing it if we could get a much needed player. I know though that Donnie said he was going to try and talk Reggie into coming back so I am guessing that is a big reason why they are paying him, as well as loyalty. I doubt it would ever happen even if it is possiable. It could be a interesting possiabilty though.

  4. #29

    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
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    Clearly the fact that the Simon's are continuing to pay Reggie this year proves that it is more than a business and that loyalty means alot.

    Um, with the way the CBA was written they have to pay him anyway. I guess they could fine him for each game he isn't on the team to get out of paying but that would be great press wouldn't it?

    This is why Shawn Bradley is working out a buyout with Dallas. They still have to pay him but with the buyout it is able to be spread out over more years and cost them less total (luxury tax).

    I still get this feeling that Reggie's contract may be used in a mid season trade, but who really knows there.

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  5. #30
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
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    Clearly the fact that the Simon's are continuing to pay Reggie this year proves that it is more than a business and that loyalty means alot.
    Paying the face of your franchise, a future hall of famer, the last year of his contract after retirement is far different from paying an extra $18M for an underused, overpaid role player who had a good playoff showing 5 YEARS AGO. Especially when presented with the option of not paying that amount.

    In fact, I don't see how loyalty even comes into play with Croshere in this situation. He still gets paid his full contract, gets to pick his destination, probably gets more playing time, plus gets a raise for whatever amount his new team pays him.
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  6. #31

    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by blanket
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    In fact, I don't see how loyalty even comes into play with Croshere in this situation. He still gets paid his full contract, gets to pick his destination, probably gets more playing time, plus gets a raise for whatever amount his new team pays him.

    Actually, no. Whatever another team pays takes away from what we have to pay them. So if someone offered him 5M a year we would only have to pay the difference to his current contract value ~ 3M. (Which is why everyone who is waived with this one time provision will take the Vet Minimum and stick it to the team that let them go, allowing their new team to use MLE etc. elsewhere.)

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  7. #32

    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by blanket
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    In fact, I don't see how loyalty even comes into play with Croshere in this situation. He still gets paid his full contract, gets to pick his destination, probably gets more playing time, plus gets a raise for whatever amount his new team pays him.
    These guys actually have lives just like the rest of us. Yes he gets paid a awesome salary but he is not guaranteed a roster on any team, and he has been in Indiana for awhile. While all the guys know it is likely they will not stay in one place forever it doesn't make it any easier to move. Maybe if he went closer to home like to the Lakers it would be a blessing. But I think Austin likes it in Indiana, and likes the organization.

    Point is there is more to loyalty than on the court stuff. You have to consider off the court stuff too.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider
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    Actually, no. Whatever another team pays takes away from what we have to pay them. So if someone offered him 5M a year we would only have to pay the difference to his current contract value ~ 3M. (Which is why everyone who is waived with this one time provision will take the Vet Minimum and stick it to the team that let them go, allowing their new team to use MLE etc. elsewhere.)

    Outsider
    don't think that's true under this special one-time provision. Why would the NBPA agree to that? They only way they'd agree to this is that player using the special rule is still paid in full by his original team to honor the contract already signed *AND* he gets the incremental salary when another team picks him up.
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  9. #34
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie
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    These guys actually have lives just like the rest of us. Yes he gets paid a awesome salary but he is not guaranteed a roster on any team, and he has been in Indiana for awhile. While all the guys know it is likely they will not stay in one place forever it doesn't make it any easier to move. Maybe if he went closer to home like to the Lakers it would be a blessing. But I think Austin likes it in Indiana, and likes the organization.

    Point is there is more to loyalty than on the court stuff. You have to consider off the court stuff too.
    The Simons aren't running a charity.

    When faced with the choice of paying $30+M over the next two years to keep Austin on the team, or paying $18 to let him play somewhere else, I think they'll have an easy decision to make.
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  10. #35
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    A question about this "one time waiver" or whatever its called - could the Pacers conceivably waive or cut Pollard and use Croshere as "trade bait" as a player another team could take (along with part of a deal) so they could cut him themselves?

    Does that even make sense?
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  11. #36
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by blanket
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    The Simons aren't running a charity.

    When faced with the choice of paying $30+M over the next two years to keep Austin on the team, or paying $18 to let him play somewhere else, I think they'll have an easy decision to make.
    Let me explain how i reached 30 million in cost instead of your projected 18 million:


    the "cliff".....



    If "over" the cliff and firmly in LT land, which we can safely say we are, it means that the FULL LT will be levied.
    i.e. if the LT is at 65 mio and the cliff is approx + 10 % = 6.5 mio = 71.5 mio, going above that means you pay LT from 65 and on.
    So based on 80 mio = 15 mio per year in LT (2 years)
    dumping 9 mio would probably bring us within the cliff range, thus NO LT has to be paid.


    In other words, Cro is a 30 million dollar liability with or without his salary brought into consideration.
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  12. #37
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious Tyrant
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    A question about this "one time waiver" or whatever its called - could the Pacers conceivably waive or cut Pollard and use Croshere as "trade bait" as a player another team could take (along with part of a deal) so they could cut him themselves?

    Does that even make sense?
    I am pretty sure it has to be a player you have under contract already and also, waiving Polly is senseless, he only makes 6.5 mio and comes of the books at the end of the year anyway so in that sense he has a marketvalue as an expiring contract.
    Cro on the other hand does not. (have any tradevalue)

    If it was possible to get hopeless contracts in to "waive" but still pay their salary, and losing 1 or 2 players (as receiver of Cro) where would the profit be?
    Easier to "dump" one of your own contracts.
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  13. #38
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    I am pretty sure it has to be a player you have under contract already and also, waiving Polly is senseless, he only makes 6.5 mio and comes of the books at the end of the year anyway so in that sense he has a marketvalue as an expiring contract.
    Cro on the other hand does not. (have any tradevalue)

    If it was possible to get hopeless contracts in to "waive" but still pay their salary, and losing 1 or 2 players (as receiver of Cro) where would the profit be?
    Easier to "dump" one of your own contracts.
    Yeah, you're probably right. I was just thinking that if Larry was thinking about trading Ronnie, but the other team had to be willing to take one of our ugly contracts - it would be easier to find a taker if our ugly contract could just be waived.

    Eh, just a thought....
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  14. #39
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    able's got it right.

    Croshere's not going to contribute to this team during this contract, and Pollard's more tradable both because of what he brings and because his contract is more reasonable.

    I'd still prefer that we trade Cro to Houston.
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  15. #40
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    Default Re: I think drafting Granger means...

    I like Austin a lot. He's taken a lot of guff since he signed the big $$ deal and he's kept his mouth shut and his nose to the grindstone. He's played hurt and contributed most of the time. He's been a worth bench player, if grossly overpaid. (but that's mgmt's fault).
    But now he's no longer going to play. We have too many better players, younger with more upside.
    Time to cut the cord on a class act.

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