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Thread: I'm Kornfused

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default I'm Kornfused

    So with Granger, where does that leave us with

    1) JJ....we just draft a very similar player, cheaper but similar. DG DOES give us insurance against JJ getting big offers we don't wanna have to pay, but JJ has ICE in his veins. The man was clutch.

    2) Cro...we can let AC go and avoid his tax consequences, but AC is experienced....and is capable of helping, he is just as capable of hindering.

    3) A "creator"...don't we still need that outside game and a guy that can take it off the dribble and create his own shot?

    4) A rebounder...yeah I saw he grabbed 9 once......I want a demon that gets em even when he has a dislocated shoulder.

    4) Bender...his position just got crowded again.




    Danny appears to me to be one of those guys rated low to begin with....and then over-inflated by certain GM's to throw people off. Then on draft day he starts "dropping" when in reality he is being drafted about where he should have been originally.



    So....did we really answer any questions with this draft, or just get the best player available no matter what?
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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Danny appears to me to be one of those guys rated low to begin with....and then over-inflated by certain GM's to throw people off. Then on draft day he starts "dropping" when in reality he is being drafted about where he should have been originally.
    What other GM's do doesn't apply. The Pacers have their own people, they had Granger in for a workout, they had him ranked 5th. Bird apologized to him for having him come in because he never thought Danny would drop to 17.

    We got a steal Geezer! Believe it!

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again, rebounding will not be a problem next season at all.

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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    What other GM's do doesn't apply. The Pacers have their own people, they had Granger in for a workout, they had him ranked 5th. Bird apologized to him for having him come in because he never thought Danny would drop to 17.

    We got a steal Geezer! Believe it!
    I guess I get a little skeptical when I read the same things year after year about how "we are so thrilled so & so fell to us...we can't believe....we were amazed..."

    Plus I guess I just don't see how he addresses our needs.
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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I've said this before, and I'll say it again, rebounding will not be a problem next season at all.
    Why are you so sure of that?

    DD isn't going to be able to play big minutes.

    Jeff gets lots of rebounds because of hustle but he doesn't control the paint.

    David can control the paint but doesn't end up with very many rebounds because of his small hands. He does help with "team" rebounds, and will make it easier for JO and others to get rebounds. But I'm not yet convinced he's going to get big minutes.

    JO may learn to blockout more often, that would help.

    Ron and S. Jax are below average rebounders for thier positions, and Tinsley is an average rebounder at PG.

    Looks like Granger could be an excellent rebounder from the SF position, but unless you're suggesting that a Ron-for-Magloire type of trade would automatically make us a better rebounding team, I think its still a concern.
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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I've said this before, and I'll say it again, rebounding will not be a problem next season at all.

    Why do you feel this way UB? I don't consider Ron that good of a rebounder and DD can only play limited minutes IMHO.
    What shift in scheme is going to happen to make rebounding a moot point?



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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    I don't mind repeating myself, but I know I went through all this. Shocking to me that someone could possibly forget what I posted.

    Let me give you the short version. Pacers were a very good rebounding team during the 2003 and 2004 seasons. They were in the top ten for both seasons, and even better as a defensive rebounding team.

    I love Reggie Miller as much as anyone, but he is a horrible rebounder and if you look back over the years the Pacers guards (especially shooting guard have never rebounded well. When you see players like Pierce get 8 rebounds and other shooting guards often get 4 or 5 , we were happy when Reggie got 2 or on a great day 3.

    OK, so Reggie is gone, and Jackson will be one of the better rebounding shooting guards in the league. That is a huge improvement, that can't be underestimated nor can it be fully realized with just the number of rebounds Jax will get.

    Tinsley is not a great rebounder, but he has great hands and if he gets near a loose ball, he always comes up with it.

    Artest: he may not get big numbers, although he did in the 2004 ECF, but he makes the Pacers a much better rebounding team, whether Ron gets 3 rebounds or 6 rebounds. Reason is he is such a great defender, that the pacers don't have to help as much and therefore are in better rebounding position, he does not get beat off the dribble, and Ron is excellent at blocking out. He makes a huge difference when he is on the floor.

    I dare say that Jax and Ron are as good a rebounding pair at the 2 and 3 as there is in the whole NBA.

    Jeff is an excellent rebounder, Dale is good and J.O gets numbers because he just goes for the ball.

    I'll bet anyone a steak dinner that the pacers will be a top 7 rebounding team overall next season and top 4 in defensive rebounding. I'm talking about rebounding % and of course, this assumes the current team is intact next season.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Geezer, one way to look at is we simply took the best player available. The roster issues will shake out over time.

    However, as I said elsewhere, I'm getting the nagging suspicion that if Granger pans out, he might make Ron expendable, at least in the eyes of TPTB.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    2) Cro...we can let AC go and avoid his tax consequences, but AC is experienced....and is capable of helping, he is just as capable of hindering.
    Cro is gone, one way or another. If we can include him in a trade this summer, we will. Otherwise, he'll be cut before the season starts.
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  10. #10
    Chest Rockwell
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    A rebounder...yeah I saw he grabbed 9 once......
    Averaging 9 rebounds over the course of a season is a little different than grabbing 9 once. Who else was available at 17 that would have made more sense than Granger?

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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Ron and S. Jax are below average rebounders for thier positions, and Tinsley is an average rebounder at PG.
    You're wrong about Jackson. He had at least a couple 10-rebound games as a 2guard. It's really pushing it to say Ron's BELOW average at it, too.

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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell
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    Averaging 9 rebounds over the course of a season is a little different than grabbing 9 once. Who else was available at 17 that would have made more sense than Granger?

    average 9 grab 9....if columnists can bend stats so can I


    No, my point really is....I didn't see SF as an area of need. We have Ron and JJ...and perhaps JB. ME? I saw the need for a 1,2, or a big.
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    You're wrong about Jackson. He had at least a couple 10-rebound games as a 2guard. It's really pushing it to say Ron's BELOW average at it, too.
    I hate to point to stats, but look at their stats.

    Chuck used to get crucified by the fans/ press when his RPG dropped below six. Ron's never been above 5.3 except for his abbreviated 2004-05 numbers. I think a starting SF should be able to get you 7 to 9 rpg. I'm willing to give you that Ron's exceptional defense means he gets a "pass" for being a below-average rebounder. But that's not the same as calling him an "average" rebounder for a SF because he is not.

    SJax - maybe that's a bit of a stretch to call him "below" average. I'd like the starting SG to get around 5-6 rpg, and he was just below that number last season even though it could be argued that he was playing SF.
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  14. #14
    foretaz
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I don't mind repeating myself, but I know I went through all this. Shocking to me that someone could possibly forget what I posted.

    Let me give you the short version. Pacers were a very good rebounding team during the 2003 and 2004 seasons. They were in the top ten for both seasons, and even better as a defensive rebounding team.

    I love Reggie Miller as much as anyone, but he is a horrible rebounder and if you look back over the years the Pacers guards (especially shooting guard have never rebounded well. When you see players like Pierce get 8 rebounds and other shooting guards often get 4 or 5 , we were happy when Reggie got 2 or on a great day 3.

    OK, so Reggie is gone, and Jackson will be one of the better rebounding shooting guards in the league. That is a huge improvement, that can't be underestimated nor can it be fully realized with just the number of rebounds Jax will get.

    Tinsley is not a great rebounder, but he has great hands and if he gets near a loose ball, he always comes up with it.

    Artest: he may not get big numbers, although he did in the 2004 ECF, but he makes the Pacers a much better rebounding team, whether Ron gets 3 rebounds or 6 rebounds. Reason is he is such a great defender, that the pacers don't have to help as much and therefore are in better rebounding position, he does not get beat off the dribble, and Ron is excellent at blocking out. He makes a huge difference when he is on the floor.

    I dare say that Jax and Ron are as good a rebounding pair at the 2 and 3 as there is in the whole NBA.

    Jeff is an excellent rebounder, Dale is good and J.O gets numbers because he just goes for the ball.

    I'll bet anyone a steak dinner that the pacers will be a top 7 rebounding team overall next season and top 4 in defensive rebounding. I'm talking about rebounding % and of course, this assumes the current team is intact next season.
    what he said....

    i really do believe they will be a force on the boards....i was gonna say top 4 rebounding team period....but im a tight ***....we can make it for a snickers if u would like

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    Member dagrubbs's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    [I][B]Granger was by far the best available player, and i think he'll step right in and suplant croshere and bender in the rotation, he is that good. About his shooting, if you look his senior year this guy shot 44% from the 3 point line, can't argue against that. We got one of the biggest steals in the modern draft era. This kid is gonna take us to the next level and will one day be a superstar in this league. And by the way Bird has already said he still plans on making changes this summer so don't expect the roster to look the same going into next season

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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    No, my point really is....I didn't see SF as an area of need. We have Ron and JJ...and perhaps JB. ME? I saw the need for a 1,2, or a big.
    If you're looking at the teams roster now then you're right. But for some reason I believe Bird and Walsh are drafting for the roster we'll have by the beginning of the season.


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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    I like the idea of JJ being used as the backup 2 guard. He is also a very good rebounder and has a sweet shot. What we need to address is backup pg. I am surprised we took a big with the 2nd round pick because we seem to have plenty of them. So as of now IMO our only real weakness is backup pg. We need one who will at some point be an NBA starter as insurance against Tinsley's injuries.

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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I hate to point to stats, but look at their stats.

    Chuck used to get crucified by the fans/ press when his RPG dropped below six. Ron's never been above 5.3 except for his abbreviated 2004-05 numbers. I think a starting SF should be able to get you 7 to 9 rpg. I'm willing to give you that Ron's exceptional defense means he gets a "pass" for being a below-average rebounder. But that's not the same as calling him an "average" rebounder for a SF because he is not.

    SJax - maybe that's a bit of a stretch to call him "below" average. I'd like the starting SG to get around 5-6 rpg, and he was just below that number last season even though it could be argued that he was playing SF.
    Oh come now, you have got to be kidding. A SG average 5-6 and SF averaging 7-9??! How many out there actually do that? And does that mean you want the PF to average 11-12? And the Center 13-14?

    That is being unreasonable. SGs just don't get a lot of rebounds, and it really isn't their problem. I'd be happy with 2 a game. I think 5 for Ron is just fine. If anyone position that needs rebounding improvement on this team, it is the PF and C spots.
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    With our current lineup, we'd be getting roughly 14 rebounds a game out of our little guys. I think that's pretty good, especially considering we and Detroit are by far the slowest two teams in terms of possesions per game. (Fewer possesions = less rebounds per game)

    I think we will be a very good rebounding team if healthy, but a great rebounder at the 5 and we would swallow up the boards.
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Oh come now, you have got to be kidding. A SG average 5-6 and SF averaging 7-9??! How many out there actually do that? And does that mean you want the PF to average 11-12? And the Center 13-14?

    That is being unreasonable. SGs just don't get a lot of rebounds, and it really isn't their problem. I'd be happy with 2 a game. I think 5 for Ron is just fine. If anyone position that needs rebounding improvement on this team, it is the PF and C spots.
    I agree Suave. Good God 7-9 rebounds per game how many SF in the NBA get 9 rebounds per game. Jay just continues to bring up bull**** problems to try to slam on this team. Like UB said, Ron is coming back and with his defense our rebounding will also get better. We will have DD and a healthy Foster who are both great rebounders. Jack rebounded great last year, and is one of the best rebounding 2's in the NBA, just look at his stats when he was starting at the 2. This team's rebounding will be just fine.

  21. #21
    Diesel
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    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    So with Granger, where does that leave us with

    1) JJ....we just draft a very similar player, cheaper but similar. DG DOES give us insurance against JJ getting big offers we don't wanna have to pay, but JJ has ICE in his veins. The man was clutch.

    2) Cro...we can let AC go and avoid his tax consequences, but AC is experienced....and is capable of helping, he is just as capable of hindering.

    3) A "creator"...don't we still need that outside game and a guy that can take it off the dribble and create his own shot?

    4) A rebounder...yeah I saw he grabbed 9 once......I want a demon that gets em even when he has a dislocated shoulder.

    4) Bender...his position just got crowded again.




    Danny appears to me to be one of those guys rated low to begin with....and then over-inflated by certain GM's to throw people off. Then on draft day he starts "dropping" when in reality he is being drafted about where he should have been originally.



    So....did we really answer any questions with this draft, or just get the best player available no matter what?

    Granger was all set to go 6 to Utah until that deal went down with Portland. Its simple why he slipped alot of teams got fascinated with pgs and big men which is why guys like Grahm,Wright, Green, and Granger all slipped. Teams alway put pgs and big men ahead of swing men. I'll tell you right now if anybody thinks Villanueva or fyre will be better players then Granger then your smoking something. Those two guys had no business being lottery picks.

  22. #22
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    Fine. Maybe 6-8 rpg is a better number.

    I guess that's one of the drawbacks to the slower game that I hadn't completely worked through. In the 80s and 90s, SFs regualry averaged 8+ rpg (Bird, Dominique, Clark Kellogg, etc.) and all the PFs and Cs would get at least 9 rpg.

    Here are some SFs to average at least 6 rpg over the past couple of seasons (admittedly, some of these guys are SF/PF tweeners, although some are SF/SG tweeners, too):

    Shawn Marion
    Lamar Odom
    Andrei Kirilenko
    LeBron James
    Kenny Thomas
    Joe Smith
    Kenyan Martin
    Paul Pierce
    Eddie Griffin
    Josh Howard
    Tracy McGrady
    Josh Smith
    Matt Harpering
    Josh Childress
    Bobby Simmons
    Jason Richardson
    Caron Butler
    Rashard Lewis
    Al Harrington
    Jim Jackson
    Carmello Anthony
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  23. #23
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Kornfused

    For the PO's Jax2 averaged 3.8 rpg and 4.9 rpg for the season and that is from the SF position...how much drop off when he moves further out on the floor???? (BTW....Reggie 2.8 for the season).


    Personally, I still think that we will suffer as long as we continue to drop people back to stop the fast break. I'd much rather keep them from GETTING the rebound in the 1st place. Bob McAdoo himself couldn't raise this teams level of rebounding if he had to do it all by himself.
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