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Thread: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I cannot believe just how far the BY400 has fallen in spectators over the years. TV money still plays a factor in keeping it on the schedule but no matter how much the drivers and announcers talk about its importance, I can't believe its relevance really maintains, or can maintain that status, with empty stands like it gets these days.

    At what point do the empty seats start embarrassing IMS? None of Nascar's gimmicks are helping. The weather isn't helping. "Competition yellows" aren't helping either. And when does that embarrassment start outweighing the check? Let alone, how affordable are the operating costs to open the gates to such a small crowd?

    More importantly, I'm not sure what fixes it. It's fallen so far I'm not sure it's fixable.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I think Mother Nature might be sending them a message right now...
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    How long before they move the event to Lucas Oil Raceway and rename it the Indy 400?
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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I don't think it's fixable. NASCRAP racing sucks on the Speedway. The luster wore off a long time ago. It was attractive in the 90's and early 2000's when The 500 was being run by a bunch of imposters, but the quality of the 500 has improved a lot since the early 2000's when the real drivers started coming back. Meanwhile, everyone realized that the stock cars just aren't for the Speedway, and the whole "wow it's cool to finally see NASCAR at Indy" mystique wore off a long time ago. That tire fiasco didn't help either.

    I wish it would go away completely, it's degrading to the facility to run an event with so much aluminum.

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I don't know that's entirely that NASCAR racing sucks at IMS, but more that NASCAR racing just sucks in general. All these contrived rules are ridiculous and not needed. Now there's stage racing? WTF is stage racing? Who the **** THOUGHT stage racing was a great idea? Did Brian Barnhart jump ship from Indycar and not tell anyone?
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

    "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Stage racing wouldn't be so bad IF it was just points awarded for the positions on X lap, X2 lap, etc.... with no contrived yellow flag included. Award the points and keep racing with no yellow. But apparently they WANT that yellow flag included to bunch up the field and give the fans an 'exciting' restart. Therefore... it's just more contrived crap from NASCAR. Oh, and let's not forget the commercial break opportunity that waving that yellow flag at each stage brings...

    Also, I can understand the need in a rare competition yellow for when circumstances beyond your control might creep into an event. But it feels like NASCAR has a competition yellow at every event from the shakiest of reasons. For example, at the BY400 this year because rain left behind a clean track and they wanted to see the tires. Well, here's an idea.... let teams sort that out for themselves. Do they want to pit under green to check their tires? Are they professional enough to manage their tires? Can they not notice a vibration developing?
    Nascar just seems to want any excuse to throw a yellow. The teams even asked them to lighten up on the debris yellows if they can see the debris is not going to be a problem. So maybe these competition yellows, and stage racing yellows, are a way to fly some more yellows to get their precious contrived restarts (and re-rack the field)....
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    The date change to September should help. I went to the Saturday event last year for the first time, and the heat made it a miserable experience...
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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    So after all the talk of not wanting a night race... they ran a night race

    So, for anyone that went, did all the wrecks and restarts make for an exciting race or did they drag out a long day even longer? I think it was pretty clear, whether it was communicated officially or not, that last caution wouldn't fly until the leader reached the overtime line and stopped any chance of another restart. That decision was made either on the spot, or before the green even flew for the last restart.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Brickyard does not even get hyped up by the local news anymore. Take WTHR for instance. You get like 3 weeks of coverage on TV and website leading up to the 500. But I had no idea the Brickyard was today, until I scrolled down WTHR website and saw a blurb talking about it. Maybe it was Kravitz column. I'm not even sure. I mean, there was no one there. It was bad looking. I dont know if NASCAR has a contract with IMS or what, but i cant imagine this race returning next season.

    NASCAR really needs to do something different. I'd love to see something like a pod tournament system. Group of 4 drivers go 20 laps. Winner moves on. And so on until we get a final 4 for 50 laps. Winner wins the race.

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I don't think it's fixable. NASCRAP racing sucks on the Speedway. The luster wore off a long time ago. It was attractive in the 90's and early 2000's when The 500 was being run by a bunch of imposters, but the quality of the 500 has improved a lot since the early 2000's when the real drivers started coming back. Meanwhile, everyone realized that the stock cars just aren't for the Speedway, and the whole "wow it's cool to finally see NASCAR at Indy" mystique wore off a long time ago. That tire fiasco didn't help either.

    I wish it would go away completely, it's degrading to the facility to run an event with so much aluminum.
    I think there's a lesson here for how easy it is to lose the 'event' from a sporting event.

    Some of the wounds are self-inflicted when they decided to make the BY400 like any other Nascar event and qualify on Saturday and run it on Sunday. They killed the Raceway Park XFinity race to bring it to IMS to run and really just took away even more of the 'event' status away from the week in Indy where that series (under it's previous series names) had successfully ran for years and ultimately in tandem with the BY400 week.

    A lot of this is on Nascar itself for all of its work to alienate their fanbase while overgrowing the series. Who actually thought the fans were clamoring for a 'chase' or wanted stage racing? Or who thought taking away the brand identity that the series had been based on was a good idea by giving them all identical cars that were differentiated by decals pretending to be their production model counterparts? I suppose on one hand Nascar thought everyone knew the cars weren't really the same as the production models anyway so would either not notice this charade or not care. But they were IMO wrong.

    And Nascar brought us the GWC to give the fans a chance at seeing a green flag finish, at the cost of having a race run past its scheduled distance. All well and good I suppose if they really think fans want that. But yellows breed yellows and so a 3 lap trophy dash run for the win tended to bring out even more aggression in the drivers. So Nascar now has the 'overtime line'? Huh? So if they can get to the overtime line on the backstretch without wrecking, then even if they do wreck, the race won't be restarted and they run a lap and a half under yellow.... Point being??? If they are going to do that then why go GWC? Why not just WC? At least that would make some sense for that half lap run to make it official.

    Yes, it's hot in Indiana in July and August (the original BY400 date) but it's hot most anywhere Nascar goes in summer. Of course the fan experience makes a difference and IMS is a large track to watch a race where not much racing happens. But then, it's also a large place to watch lap after lap of yellow. Or sit through red flags so the track can be cleared of wrecked cars. I'm not sure how competition yellows and stage race yellows helps this. Even if they do lead to 'exciting restarts', especially since those restarts tend to lead to more yellows.
    So a lot of the boredom falls on Nascar for all their gimmicks ultimately having the exact opposite impact than they are intended to.

    I do think they might be onto something with their XFinity rule changes that did seem to give the XFinity race a little more zing. But there again it's still another change.

    I always wonder if racing series get so caught up into trying to make all the cars equal and the races all end with a photo finish that they lose sight of the fact racing got very successful without that contrived and manufactured racing. Maybe it was more about seeing the best win however they won, and ultimately being blown away when you had a barnburner breakout with a rare 2-3 car battle for the win.

    Maybe there's a reason why races like the 82 Indy 500, or 92 Indy 500, still resonate with fans versus the Hornish pass at the line of Marco. ...even though that's not even the best example of what I'm talking about since Hornish legitimately hunted him down at the end. But that race still doesn't seem to have the same place in history as those other races. Maybe because by that point in time the close, manufactured ending, was what fans expected.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    That's what I hate about IndyCar racing nowadays. It just feels like an open-wheel version of NASCRAP with spec cars and contrived passing. I wish cars could just get out and race like they used too. When you watch the end of the 92 500, that's true racing. Goodyear couldn't pass Little Al because Little Al had so much skill. Nowadays, they probably would have traded passes multiple times on the final laps because of the spec cars.

    IndyCar is still way better than NASCAR though.

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    That's what I hate about IndyCar racing nowadays. It just feels like an open-wheel version of NASCRAP with spec cars and contrived passing. I wish cars could just get out and race like they used too. When you watch the end of the 92 500, that's true racing. Goodyear couldn't pass Little Al because Little Al had so much skill. Nowadays, they probably would have traded passes multiple times on the final laps because of the spec cars.

    IndyCar is still way better than NASCAR though.
    The new Indycar unified aerokit worries me. It's a step forward in looks, so far, but it's a step backward in diversity.

    While Indycar was trying to copy Nascar, Nascar was busy trying to alienate racing fans. Fortunately, Indycar never fell into the trap of all the gimmicks like the chase, lucky dog, GWC, etc.. But they did fall into the trap of spec cars and manufactured passing/racing.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    The date change to September should help. I went to the Saturday event last year for the first time, and the heat made it a miserable experience...
    So it's moving to September, and competing with the opening week of the NFL season. Couldn't the Colts conceivably have a home game?
    #DBAP

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    So it's moving to September, and competing with the opening week of the NFL season. Couldn't the Colts conceivably have a home game?
    I'm wondering if they're moving it back to Saturdays to avoid NFL Sunday? I haven't seen the Sept date so have no idea....
    I don't think moving it back to Saturday is the worst idea anyway.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I think the only thing that could re-energize it would be a lighting the place and moving it to night. They'd get to advertise 'racing under the lights' for the first time ever at IMS and build some hype for that. But the problem is, it's still Nascar, and if nothing else changes then the hype of the night race would die quickly. It might be more comfortable to watch the race but it would still be the same gimmicks and competition yellows and pale in comparison to the Indy 500.

    I'm just not sure it's really and truly fixable and it's getting pretty embarrassing for it to continue like it is. It's going to drag IMS down some with it.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I haven't watched racing in years. This thing got put on the TV yesterday with 3 laps to go. 30 minutes later the race wasn't even finished. WHAT THE ****?! On the one restart they didn't get to the damn line before people were sideways. Man was it awful.


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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    I'm just glad the 500 is back to being the undisputed king of the Speedway. For a few years, the Brickyard was probably a bigger event.

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    So it's moving to September, and competing with the opening week of the NFL season. Couldn't the Colts conceivably have a home game?
    The NFL seemingly has no issue with having the Colts play on the road week one every year...
    Last edited by Natston; 07-25-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    The quality of driving and the rules are just absurd. I'm sorry but it's embarrassing that they can't pull off a simple restart on the front stretch without cars getting sideways. Blame the drivers or blame the rules but it's a horrible look.

    NASCAR has a pro wrestling vibe and has now for a while and I honestly will not be surprised if we find out some results have been fixed for years.

    But you can't ignore that the talent level is just embarrassing when guys can't keep their cars in a straight line and the league is having to come up with crazy ideas like "Overtime" because there are too many late race wrecks due to bad drivers.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 07-26-2017 at 12:53 PM.



  30. #20
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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    But you can't ignore that the talent level is just embarrassing when guys can't keep their cars in a straight line and the league is having to come up with crazy ideas like "Overtime" because there are too many late race wrecks due to bad drivers.
    I don't know that it's bad drivers per se'... The "Overtime" rule itself causes a lot of this because yellows breed yellows when you bunch the field back up and then tell them (basically) "You've got one last chance to make something happen to improve your position". And the drivers don't have the fear of contact that open wheel drivers have. One small thing ends up triggering a big thing because no one has an escape route to avoid it.

    Single file restarts would probably eliminate a bunch of that, or minimize the wrecks when they happen, but I get the feeling Nascar likes that action.

    But yeah, WWE vibe is part of the problem. But I'm not sure Nascar sees it that way.

    BTW, did anyone notice Danica was in the race?
    Talk about something or someone falling back to reality...
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: 2017 Brickyard 400... How far it's fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    So Nascar now has the 'overtime line'? Huh? So if they can get to the overtime line on the backstretch without wrecking, then even if they do wreck, the race won't be restarted and they run a lap and a half under yellow.... Point being??? If they are going to do that then why go GWC? Why not just WC? At least that would make some sense for that half lap run to make it official.
    Well, Nascar must've heard me complaining. They are doing away with the overtime line. At least in-so-much-as it won't be an imaginary/arbitrary line on the backstretch. Now it will be the SF line. So the leader needs to get back to the SF line before a yellow to make the race official (once the leader gets the white flag, a caution won't reset overtime). So a full lap needs completed. It's still pretty silly IMO but it makes a little more sense this way.

    Of course, this part is how the GWC rule originally was before they messed with it... so there's that...
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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