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Thread: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

  1. #51

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    and this is why there is a fan problem in the usa....the underlying resentment that these youngsters havent 'earned' the right to make all these millions...

    bottom line is they are more talented than many playing in the league....there are many players, as scot pollard would tell u, that get paid alot of money to suck....

    as long as eddie gill and half the atlanta roster is in the league...not too mention at least 2 players on every roster that is just not that good....there should be no problem with a handful of the very best teenagers in the world joining the league....

    but then jealousy and resentment are funny things...

    some evidently feel they should earn that right....well, my friend....its based on talent...not on years served or a persons age....and if u dont believe for a second that sebastian telfair and sean livingston arent more talented and better players than eddie gill and at least another dozen players in this league, then im sorry....but u must be watching something different than what im watching....
    Both are probably more talented and athletic than John Stockton too, but that doesn't mean that they'll be anywhere near the player Stockton was. Talent isn't everything. When you start to factor in the other stuff, that's when we can start to discuss this seriously.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    I would much rather see a 10 year vet making millions as a garbage player than an 18 year old kid who's never done anything in his life but dominate at the high school level.
    And this explains why you and other twist yourself in weird forms to make a case where there is none.
    All you are saying is: A. it is better garbage time vets make the money and B. the owners save themselves a lot
    then giving a talented kid a chance to get rich of his talent.

    It is generally known as "jealousy".

    I can understand people being jealous of those kid making all that money, fully, but that doesn't prevent you from seeing what it (the age limit) really is, because if it does, then you have a problem.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  3. #53
    foretaz
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie4Three
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    Both are probably more talented and athletic than John Stockton too, but that doesn't mean that they'll be anywhere near the player Stockton was. Talent isn't everything. When you start to factor in the other stuff, that's when we can start to discuss this seriously.

    oh, puhlease.....now ur telling me stockton wasnt talented? or athletic??? lol...ok....but either way....if they are more athletic and more talented than a top 50 and hall of famer....then yea....they belong in the league....u gotta problem with that...so be it...

    discussion is over as far as im concerned....

  4. #54

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    And this explains why you and other twist yourself in weird forms to make a case where there is none.
    All you are saying is: A. it is better garbage time vets make the money and B. the owners save themselves a lot
    then giving a talented kid a chance to get rich of his talent.

    It is generally known as "jealousy".

    I can understand people being jealous of those kid making all that money, fully, but that doesn't prevent you from seeing what it (the age limit) really is, because if it does, then you have a problem.
    I'm not "jealous" of these kids making the money. What I don't like is they are getting paid on talent. Talent doesn't mean you belong in the NBA.

    What have these guys done to show that they deserve the money?

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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    And this explains why you and other twist yourself in weird forms to make a case where there is none.
    All you are saying is: A. it is better garbage time vets make the money and B. the owners save themselves a lot
    then giving a talented kid a chance to get rich of his talent.
    That kid will get his chance, just like every other NBA player before him got theirs. What is this obsession with giving teenagers millions and millions of dollars before they've done anything?

    Again, does the Major League Baseball business structure trouble you? How about the NFL?

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    It is generally known as "jealousy".
    Yes, it's all about jealousy. You got me!


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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    henceforth the math: savings on guaranteed contract 3.5 mio for the top 1.5 for the bottom, avg 2.5 mio for 7 years (duration of the cba) = 17.5 mio savings on getting the draftpick of next year (HS kid) into the NBDL:slary 150 thousand tops, 2 - 3 year contract when "called" up minimum payment schedule NBA = avg 650 thousand, if player had been 1st round pick : (we are talking second year earliest here) 1 mio minimum savings over 2 years = 3.5 mio per year after the 1st year hence 5 times 3.5 mio = 17.5 mio including a failure or two the total savings come down to 30 mio per team = 900 mio for the league.
    The major flaw in this theory is this: For your theory to be correct, you must assume that the owners aren't paying anyone the salary they would have paid that high schooler. But, that's not the case. If they're not paying a high schooler that money, they'll still be paying someone. Removing high schoolers from the equation doesn't remove the still intact rookie salary structure and the subsequent money those rookies will make on down the line.

    You can argue that the age limit rule takes money out of the high schooler's pocket (for one year), but the owners will still be shelling out the same amount of money as before, just to someone about whom they know a little more.

    And THAT, my friend, is the crux of the age limit rule.... the money is going to be spent either way, why can't they (the owners) allow themselves the best chance at knowing what it is they're getting?

  7. #57

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    oh, puhlease.....now ur telling me stockton wasnt talented? or athletic??? lol...ok....but either way....if they are more athletic and more talented than a top 50 and hall of famer....then yea....they belong in the league....u gotta problem with that...so be it...

    discussion is over as far as im concerned....
    Everyone is the NBA is talented and athletic to some extent so I'm not claiming he wasn't talented or athletic. Tell me this. If you line up an 18 year old Stockton and an 18 year old Telfair this year and ask 100 scouts who they'd take, who do you think they pick? Telfair has more raw gifts and is the better athlete. A vast majority would pick Telfair.

    That's the only point that you need to recognize to figure this out. There is far more to being a good basketball player than just having raw physical skills and talent. You want to see the most talent and I just want to see the best basketball players. They are not always the same. There are alot of talented players that never pan out and there are hall of famers with marginal levels of talent.

  8. #58

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    The major flaw in this theory is this: For your theory to be correct, you must assume that the owners aren't paying anyone the salary they would have paid that high schooler. But, that's not the case. If they're not paying a high schooler that money, they'll still be paying someone. Removing high schoolers from the equation doesn't remove the still intact rookie salary structure and the subsequent money those rookies will make on down the line.

    You can argue that the age limit rule takes money out of the high schooler's pocket (for one year), but the owners will still be shelling out the same amount of money as before, just to someone about whom they know a little more.
    Thank you.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie4Three
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    Everyone is the NBA is talented and athletic to some extent so I'm not claiming he wasn't talented or athletic. Tell me this. If you line up an 18 year old Stockton and an 18 year old Telfair this year and ask 100 scouts who they'd take, who do you think they pick? Telfair has more raw gifts and is the better athlete. A vast majority would pick Telfair.

    That's the only point that you need to recognize to figure this out. There is far more to being a good basketball player than just having raw physical skills and talent. You want to see the most talent and I just want to see the best basketball players. They are not always the same. There are alot of talented players that never pan out and there are hall of famers with marginal levels of talent.
    i said i was done....and i apologize....but this has to be one of the most stupid comments i have ever seen....

    u appear to have watched the movie hoosiers far too many times....its the players with the most talent that end up being the greatest players....here...let me help u.....magic, jordan, bird, jabbar, chamberlain, erving, stockton, malone

    if u dont think these are some of the most talented players to ever play the game....then i cant help u....they all had unbelievable talent and gifts when it came to basketball.....

    u can take eddie gill and send him to college for fifty years...it doesnt matter....i suppose u take the child genius and make him go thru all of high school...just because hes not old enuff to go to college...nevermind the fact hes smart enuff...

    ur ignoring the obvious....talent is first and foremost....if u dont have talent, ur not making it to the nba....period...if u believe anything else...then,,,im sorrry...ur nuts...

    like i said...this isnt high school...and its not 'hoosiers'

  10. #60
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie4Three
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    Thank you.
    There is no major flaw in that theory, you carefully took out the base premises for it and decide to ignore facts:

    1. the guaranteed term for the rookie contracts goes down to 2 years.
    2. bet on the 2nd round being less and less interesting, players there will be shipped off to the nbdl for (as reported last night on tv) 50K yearly salaries.
    1 year (first year of the cba) + at least one year per year on the duration of the cba is no longer guaranteed.
    3. HS players that are no longer eligible for the draft will have to do somewhere, in a lot of cases college is not an option (nor advisable anyway) and therefore they will be offered a place in the nbdl (min contract 2 years) @ 50 thousand dollar. savings on that?

    If you want to sink a theory filled with fact, come with facts, not assumptions.

    The fact you agree is found in the grounds that it is not "decent" for these young kids who have proven nothing except that they excel in talent for a sport, to get millions of dollars, henceforth you support the owners "using" these same youngsters for a rgeatly discounted pay, so the "can prove themselves".

    You know what? being drafted is proof.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  11. #61
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i said i was done....and i apologize....but this has to be one of the most stupid comments i have ever seen....

    u appear to have watched the movie hoosiers far too many times....its the players with the most talent that end up being the greatest players....here...let me help u.....magic, jordan, bird, jabbar, chamberlain, erving, stockton, malone

    if u dont think these are some of the most talented players to ever play the game....then i cant help u....they all had unbelievable talent and gifts when it came to basketball.....

    u can take eddie gill and send him to college for fifty years...it doesnt matter....i suppose u take the child genius and make him go thru all of high school...just because hes not old enuff to go to college...nevermind the fact hes smart enuff...

    ur ignoring the obvious....talent is first and foremost....if u dont have talent, ur not making it to the nba....period...if u believe anything else...then,,,im sorrry...ur nuts...

    like i said...this isnt high school...and its not 'hoosiers'
    HEY! you forgot Spencer Haywood! the first "hardship case"

    But ofcourse, he wasn't ready for the "big show", he only became the leading scorer in his rookie year averaging 30 pts pg
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    There is no major flaw in that theory, you carefully took out the base premises for it and decide to ignore facts:

    1. the guaranteed term for the rookie contracts goes down to 2 years.
    That's a CBA discussion. That has nothing to do with whether or not kids will be able to enter the league straight out of HS.

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    2. bet on the 2nd round being less and less interesting, players there will be shipped off to the nbdl for (as reported last night on tv) 50K yearly salaries.
    As opposed to now, when they're simply cut and the league has no salary obligation to them at all. I don't agree with your premise that the 2nd round will somehow be less and less interesting, though. Why would that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    3. HS players that are no longer eligible for the draft will have to do somewhere, in a lot of cases college is not an option (nor advisable anyway) and therefore they will be offered a place in the nbdl (min contract 2 years) @ 50 thousand dollar. savings on that?
    Again, the owners will STILL be paying WHOEVER they draft. They aren't saving money, they're just not spending their money on unproven commodities. Please stop with the assumption that if they're not paying the HS'er, they're somehow pocketing that money.

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    If you want to sink a theory filled with fact, come with facts, not assumptions.
    I've made no assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    The fact you agree is found in the grounds that it is not "decent" for these young kids who have proven nothing except that they excel in talent for a sport, to get millions of dollars, henceforth you support the owners "using" these same youngsters for a rgeatly discounted pay, so the "can prove themselves".
    Since when is proving oneself before being given millions of dollars such a bad thing? I think your tune might change just a tad if you were paying these kids out of your own pocket. You're pretty cavalier with other people's money, I wonder how you'd feel if it was your money we were talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    You know what? being drafted is proof.
    It's proof of nothing, that's why the league has fought to force these youngsters to prove themselves BEFORE they enter the league. At least a little more than submitting their HS resume.

    Oh, and the player's union has agreed, as well. Gee, you think some of the league veterans might feel the same way the owners and I do?

    Yeah, yeah, they're all just jealous.......

  13. #63
    foretaz
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    Oh, and the player's union has agreed, as well. Gee, you think some of the league veterans don't feel the same way the owners and I do?

    Yeah, yeah, they're all just jealous.......
    oh...now theres a surprise noone saw coming....veterans agreeing to keep more talented players out of the league so they can continue to collect their grossly inflated wage....

    talk about not earning something....

    and since when did college ball become the ultimate proving ground?????

    and one year is suddenly gonna make them worthy?????

    bottom line is if they are more talented than a fair chunk of the current players there is no reason to keep them out...especially an age reason...

    the fact that owners conspire with current employees to do so doesnt make it any more viable....and theyre one court case away from having that proven to them...unlike the nfl , the nba will lose in court...

  14. #64
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    Since when is proving oneself before being given millions of dollars such a bad thing? I think your tune might change just a tad if you were paying these kids out of your own pocket. You're pretty cavalier with other people's money, I wonder how you'd feel if it was your money we were talking about.



    It's proof of nothing, that's why the league has fought to force these youngsters to prove themselves BEFORE they enter the league. At least a little more than submitting their HS resume.

    Oh, and the player's union has agreed, as well. Gee, you think some of the league veterans might feel the same way the owners and I do?

    Yeah, yeah, they're all just jealous.......
    One day you will have to deliver your resume, I hope that you have some talent, because on your resume alone you will not have your payday.

    As far as the vets being in favour of this?
    You asking an alcoholic if he wants another drink?

    Your laughter shows the general quality (contentwise) of your post and does not hide your lack of fundamental arguments
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    Your laughter shows the general quality (contentwise) of your post and does not hide your lack of fundamental arguments
    And that, my friend, is your opinion. I appreciate the spirited debate.

    Too bad the league and the player's union both agree with me, but hey.... win some and lose some.

    You still never answered my question as to your thoughts on MLB and the NFL.

    Also, you never reconciled the fact that the owners will pay out the same amount of money regardless of an age limit rule.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    And that, my friend, is your opinion. I appreciate the spirited debate.

    Too bad the league and the player's union both agree with me, but hey.... win some and lose some.

    You still never answered my question as to your thoughts on MLB and the NFL.
    The MLB and NFL are of no interest to me. If you commit jump of a cliff, I will not follow suit.
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    Also, you never reconciled the fact that the owners will pay out the same amount of money regardless of an age limit rule.
    I did give you a perfect reason that such is not true, but you choose to ignore that.

    Also the fact that he age limit is introduced does not mean that the league and hte players agree, in negotiations you give and take, it just means that it did not have enough priority to "break" negotiations over.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  17. #67
    foretaz
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    And that, my friend, is your opinion. I appreciate the spirited debate.

    Too bad the league and the player's union both agree with me, but hey.... win some and lose some.

    You still never answered my question as to your thoughts on MLB and the NFL.

    Also, you never reconciled the fact that the owners will pay out the same amount of money regardless of an age limit rule.

    im sure drug dealers and drug users would agree with u regarding drug legalization...not sure the rationale behind such a statement...having someone agree with u hardly makes it right....

    MLB has no age limit rules....they draft players right out of high school as well...and nothing prevents those players from playing in the big leagues....

    NFL there is a physicality issue....but that is soon to be overturned.....it was overturned last year and only on appeal was it changed back....and the only reason for this was the fact that they ruled the players union agreed to it, so it must be ok....nevermind, u have to be a player in the league to be a member of the union...thereby not allowing youngsters in the union and the league both...

    and as we discussed earlier...what is the common response going to be from veterans who would like to continue to collect a check when asked if younger more talented players should be let into the league....shock shock...they say theyre not ready....imagine that...

  18. #68

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i said i was done....and i apologize....but this has to be one of the most stupid comments i have ever seen....

    u appear to have watched the movie hoosiers far too many times....its the players with the most talent that end up being the greatest players....here...let me help u.....magic, jordan, bird, jabbar, chamberlain, erving, stockton, malone

    if u dont think these are some of the most talented players to ever play the game....then i cant help u....they all had unbelievable talent and gifts when it came to basketball.....

    u can take eddie gill and send him to college for fifty years...it doesnt matter....i suppose u take the child genius and make him go thru all of high school...just because hes not old enuff to go to college...nevermind the fact hes smart enuff...

    ur ignoring the obvious....talent is first and foremost....if u dont have talent, ur not making it to the nba....period...if u believe anything else...then,,,im sorrry...ur nuts...

    like i said...this isnt high school...and its not 'hoosiers'
    Reading is fundamental. Everyone in the NBA has talent and athleticism to varying degrees. I said that, you chose to ignore it or simply can't read at a sufficient level.

    Talent alone does not make the player. Until you realize that, there's nothing further to discuss with you.

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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    MLB has no age limit rules....they draft players right out of high school as well...and nothing prevents those players from playing in the big leagues....
    My initial question had to do with MLB owners having the ability to send unproven talent to the minor leagues where they pay them a fraction of a major league salary until such time that the player has proven they belong in the "bigs".

    If NBA owners eventually have that same ability with the NBDL as a minor league, is that a bad thing?

    able seemed to think it was borderline criminal that NBA owners would have a place to put unproven players at a lesser salary until they've proven they belong with the big boys.

  20. #70

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    im sure drug dealers and drug users would agree with u regarding drug legalization...not sure the rationale behind such a statement...having someone agree with u hardly makes it right....

    MLB has no age limit rules....they draft players right out of high school as well...and nothing prevents those players from playing in the big leagues....

    NFL there is a physicality issue....but that is soon to be overturned.....it was overturned last year and only on appeal was it changed back....and the only reason for this was the fact that they ruled the players union agreed to it, so it must be ok....nevermind, u have to be a player in the league to be a member of the union...thereby not allowing youngsters in the union and the league both...

    and as we discussed earlier...what is the common response going to be from veterans who would like to continue to collect a check when asked if younger more talented players should be let into the league....shock shock...they say theyre not ready....imagine that...
    Sorry, I thought I was done but read this and was left shaking my head in disbelief. The last thing a drug dealer would want would be for drugs to be legalized. Any idea why they can command such a high price for them? Because you can't go get them at Wal-Mart. Legalize them, the supply increases and the premium price goes down. All in all, not a very intelligent comparison at all.

  21. #71
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    My initial question had to do with MLB owners having the ability to send unproven talent to the minor leagues where they pay them a fraction of a major league salary until such time that the player has proven they belong in the "bigs".

    If NBA owners eventually have that same ability with the NBDL as a minor league, is that a bad thing?

    able seemed to think it was borderline criminal that NBA owners would have a place to put unproven players at a lesser salary until they've proven they belong with the big boys.
    seems to me u miss the whole concept of what the draft is....

    theres a huge talent pool....a few high schoolers, some international players, and college players....all of different ages....

    a teams scouting department does evaluations on all these prospects and concludes which ones make the most sense....plusses and minuses....

    noone holds a gun to anybodys head to take a highschooler over a college player....

    that organization deems whatever player they take to be the best acquisition for the organization....regardless of age...

    because the rookie salaries were getting way out of hand and because u had some players coming into the league that were much younger, they instituted the rookie contract scale....which basicallly limits the investment that can be lost-by any player.....i think u will find there have been far more busts from college and int'l players than there have been high schoolers....

    the age limit is ridiculous....ones age has very little bearing on his ability to play basketball...period...

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie4Three
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    Sorry, I thought I was done but read this and was left shaking my head in disbelief. The last thing a drug dealer would want would be for drugs to be legalized. Any idea why they can command such a high price for them? Because you can't go get them at Wal-Mart. Legalize them, the supply increases and the premium price goes down. All in all, not a very intelligent comparison at all.
    some people just cant see the forest for the trees.....

    i, for my part, am done with u and this conversation....i have a feeling ur just young and naive and not worthy of my time....when u grow up and understand how to have a civilized discussion....we will reevaluate....good luck

  23. #73

    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    some people just cant see the forest for the trees.....

    i, for my part, am done with u and this conversation....i have a feeling ur just young and naive and not worthy of my time....when u grow up and understand how to have a civilized discussion....we will reevaluate....good luck

    For the first time, we're on the same page. I was thinking the same thing about the guy who first replied to me in this thread with two smilies. Civilized discussion would be great, but it takes two for that.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    some people just cant see the forest for the trees.....
    Actually, he's correct in saying that drug dealers would not be for legalization of drugs. Right now, they're the sole providers of their product. Why would they want added competition?

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i, for my part, am done with u and this conversation....i have a feeling ur just young and naive and not worthy of my time....when u grow up and understand how to have a civilized discussion....we will reevaluate....good luck
    I'm not sure where this conversation became uncivilized.

    I find it interesting that the point of view that you fight so hard against is the point of view that is currently being adopted by the league. Don't you think many high priced lawyers have been consulted and discussions much more in depth than the one we've had have occurred? And with that, both sides have agreed to institute an age limit rule.

    Agree with it or not, it's certainly not THE worst idea in the world. And for you to continue to ridicule and talk down to people who happen to think it is a good idea only shows your level of maturity and willingness to participate in civilized discourse.

  25. #75
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Take on the NBA Age Limit Rule

    For the same reason drugsealers don't want drugs legalized, the NBA and the union agreed on the age limit, think about that one.

    Or did you really expeect a veteran NBA player to vote against protecting his paycheck and the owners to vote against themselves?
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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