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Thread: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

  1. #451
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I think the long term play of Sabonis has the potential to make this trade from just a good trade into a really good trade. Don't get me wrong you are never going to win a trade when your move a star player of George's caliber but considering the gun KP was under and the return he got I believe he got the best deal he could get. However I think VO will be a near all star this season (very weak East and he will probably have inflated stats) and to me the steal of this trade might very well be Sabonis. In the long run I believe he can work his way into being a middle income man's Nikola Jokic. I doubt he ever reach's the level of Jokic but I believe he can get somewhere in the same atmosphere.

    Yes I also believe not only can Myles & Sabonis work together I believe that they can ultimately thrive.

    I know I sound crazy but I honestly see a lot of potential with this team. We have bigs that can spread the floor and actually hit their shots and we have a couple of slashers who can get to the basket. I don't believe we will amount to much of anything this season as far as advancing in the playoffs but I can easily see us making the playoffs and not getting swept. Baby steps people, baby steps.
    I thanked your post because I really believe in Sabonis and I agree that a Myles & Sabonis pair can thrive together but I'm with TheDavisBrothers on Jokić. His passing ability is unreal. Domantas may be the biological son of Arvydas but it's Jokić who inherited his passing ability.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I think the long term play of Sabonis has the potential to make this trade from just a good trade into a really good trade. Don't get me wrong you are never going to win a trade when your move a star player of George's caliber but considering the gun KP was under and the return he got I believe he got the best deal he could get. However I think VO will be a near all star this season (very weak East and he will probably have inflated stats) and to me the steal of this trade might very well be Sabonis. In the long run I believe he can work his way into being a middle income man's Nikola Jokic. I doubt he ever reach's the level of Jokic but I believe he can get somewhere in the same atmosphere.

    Yes I also believe not only can Myles & Sabonis work together I believe that they can ultimately thrive.

    I know I sound crazy but I honestly see a lot of potential with this team. We have bigs that can spread the floor and actually hit their shots and we have a couple of slashers who can get to the basket. I don't believe we will amount to much of anything this season as far as advancing in the playoffs but I can easily see us making the playoffs and not getting swept. Baby steps people, baby steps.
    Jokic is pretty high up there, I would say more of a Saric. I got to watch Saric court side and that dude has the best body control and footwork I've seen from a big with that playing style I've seen in awhile.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Point is most players look good in highlight videos
    That's why you watch multiple videos. There's still some information that you can get from videos. Highlight videos are only bad if you start proclaiming they're the next whatever great player. For example, I watched quite a few videos on Ball, and he still doesn't impress me enough where I think he's going to be a great player. I'm higher on Tantum and Smith than I am on Ball...and no, I'm not "hating".


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Jokic? Hell if Sabonis could become Miles Plumlee I'd be absolutely ecstatic.
    News Flash: Domantas Sabonis has surpassed and crushed Miles Plumlee entire career at the age of 20. Everyone is celebrating in the streets!!
    Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    News Flash: Domantas Sabonis has surpassed and crushed Miles Plumlee entire career at the age of 20. Everyone is celebrating in the streets!!
    I totally meant Mason. My bad lol

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I think the long term play of Sabonis has the potential to make this trade from just a good trade into a really good trade. Don't get me wrong you are never going to win a trade when your move a star player of George's caliber but considering the gun KP was under and the return he got I believe he got the best deal he could get. However I think VO will be a near all star this season (very weak East and he will probably have inflated stats) and to me the steal of this trade might very well be Sabonis. In the long run I believe he can work his way into being a middle income man's Nikola Jokic. I doubt he ever reach's the level of Jokic but I believe he can get somewhere in the same atmosphere.

    Yes I also believe not only can Myles & Sabonis work together I believe that they can ultimately thrive.

    I know I sound crazy but I honestly see a lot of potential with this team. We have bigs that can spread the floor and actually hit their shots and we have a couple of slashers who can get to the basket. I don't believe we will amount to much of anything this season as far as advancing in the playoffs but I can easily see us making the playoffs and not getting swept. Baby steps people, baby steps.
    Jokic? Hell if Sabonis could become Mason Plumlee I'd be absolutely ecstatic.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    I agree with the assessment of Sabonis as likely a solid starting player and/or great complimentary player as opposed to a star. It's his fit with Turner that has me excited, I like those two as a potential duo a lot because they make up for one another's deficiencies to an extent. I've seen enough of Sabonis to believe that he can guard the perimeter effectively as a 4, and Turner's rim protection can mitigate his lack of length. Sabonis toughness and rebounding ability will also mitigate Myles's weaknesses. Myles can shoot, Sabonis can pass and play in the post a little. Just a potentially very nice versatile front court.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I agree with the assessment of Sabonis as likely a solid starting player and/or great complimentary player as opposed to a star. It's his fit with Turner that has me excited, I like those two as a potential duo a lot because they make up for one another's deficiencies to an extent. I've seen enough of Sabonis to believe that he can guard the perimeter effectively as a 4, and Turner's rim protection can mitigate his lack of length. Sabonis toughness and rebounding ability will also mitigate Myles's weaknesses. Myles can shoot, Sabonis can pass and play in the post a little. Just a potentially very nice versatile front court.
    One minor thing I'm curious about: In a league where more and more teams only play one big/tall guy, will these two be able to take advantage of that by being two 6'10"/6'11" guys with some passing ability, by passing to one another over the top of smaller defenses? Just a random thought.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    I'm doubling down on this guys. I honestly believe Sabonis is going to surprise a lot of people and be far more valuable than we ever thought he would be. I never said he was going to be as good as Jokic I said he was going to be a middle income man's version of him (I think he will be better than a poor mans version in other words) but even if I'm wrong and he is a poor mans version that is still one hell of an upgrade to what we had last year. He may struggle this season adjusting in or he may not but I think this is one of those long term prospects where he will become part of our culture and team identity.

    I honestly like the trade and am now kind of grateful to PG for forcing us to look at ourselves and start over. I have a higher value on where we are headed now than I would have if we kept Paul and surrounded him yet again with middling free agents and no real upgrade in talent anywhere else.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    I'm cautiously optimistic about him. Coming from our angle and just looking at highlight videos, where he was drafted, the fact that he started as a rookie gets me excited. But I just wonder why people in OKC didn't seem all that excited about him or really sad to see him go.
    Lifelong pacers fan

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    I'm cautiously optimistic about him. Coming from our angle and just looking at highlight videos, where he was drafted, the fact that he started as a rookie gets me excited. But I just wonder why people in OKC didn't seem all that excited about him or really sad to see him go.
    Because they got Paul George.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I never said he was going to be as good as Jokic I said he was going to be a middle income man's version of him (I think he will be better than a poor mans version in other words)
    Even saying that or that "he can get somewhere in the same atmosphere," is a bit of a stretch to me, although I understand it's all subjective. From my perspective, it would be akin to saying that CJ Miles is somewhere in the same atmosphere as Paul George.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    I'm cautiously optimistic about him. Coming from our angle and just looking at highlight videos, where he was drafted, the fact that he started as a rookie gets me excited. But I just wonder why people in OKC didn't seem all that excited about him or really sad to see him go.
    Well for one thing they landed a superstar they think they might be able to keep and pair with their other, better superstar, so there's that. But at least one OKC person seemed pretty high on Sabonis:

    https://www.indycornrows.com/2017/7/...mantas-sabonis

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    SO I have spent some time looking at floor spacing of the Pacers and see some conflicts but also some areas of strength. So if we assume starting lineup is Collision, VO, Bojan, Thad, Myles then the floor spacing based on highest 3 point shot should be Thad spacing to the left corner (fg% 39.1). Bojan should be to the right corner (fg%48.1). Turner above the break three is actually not bad at 38% so a high pnr will be interesting with Collison and VO.

    Conflicts arise with Sabonis and GR3. Both shoot the highest percentage 3 on the left corner 34.6% and 47.4%. Lance and Corey are a scary pnr option with the bigs but they need a lot help with spacing which is why Sabonis and GR3 conflicts will be a concern unless Sabonis is converted to a 5. Tj Leaf with a small ball line up will probably be the only way Sabonis and Leaf will work. I am not sure Sabonis can be a small ball 5 and that is a lot to ask of a second year player as well but to play Lance and Corey together I really don't see many other options.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    One minor thing I'm curious about: In a league where more and more teams only play one big/tall guy, will these two be able to take advantage of that by being two 6'10"/6'11" guys with some passing ability, by passing to one another over the top of smaller defenses? Just a random thought.
    That would depend on whether they're good enough passers or not.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDavisBrothers View Post
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    Even saying that or that "he can get somewhere in the same atmosphere," is a bit of a stretch to me, although I understand it's all subjective. From my perspective, it would be akin to saying that CJ Miles is somewhere in the same atmosphere as Paul George.
    I'm not sure if I think you think to lowly of Sabonis or to highly of Jokic. Or maybe its I think to highly of Sabonis or to lowly of Jokic but either way if Sabonis can be 1/2 of the player Jokic is then I will be happy.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I'm not sure if I think you think to lowly of Sabonis or to highly of Jokic. Or maybe its I think to highly of Sabonis or to lowly of Jokic but either way if Sabonis can be 1/2 of the player Jokic is then I will be happy.
    I mean, Jokic might be the best center in the NBA and with his skill set that is saying a lot.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I'm not sure if I think you think to lowly of Sabonis or to highly of Jokic. Or maybe its I think to highly of Sabonis or to lowly of Jokic but either way if Sabonis can be 1/2 of the player Jokic is then I will be happy.
    How do you quantify "half the player"...would you also say "quarter of a player" or "Oh, Shaq's about tree fiddy Roy Hibberts?"

    I've always wondered about the statement
    "man, PG has been really good."

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozwalt72 View Post
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    How do you quantify "half the player"...would you also say "quarter of a player" or "Oh, Shaq's about tree fiddy Roy Hibberts?"

    I've always wondered about the statement
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Hey guys at least I didn't say he was going to be Larry Bird.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    "Don't look now the Pacers aren't all that bad..."

    ...just mostly.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Count me a Sabonis believer. He's a plus passer (and thats not just an inference based on the name), I think he will be an above average rebounder, can score in the post, and seems to like contact. Not projecting an all-star, but plenty of those talents look good next to myles long term.
    "He's a strong physical presence out there on both ends of the court. He's a man. There's a reason he was an All-Star." -- Vogel on David West

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    How about that Nate McMillan? HOF coach?
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Hey guys at least I didn't say he was going to be Larry Bird.
    I suppose that is aimed at me, so I'll respond. Sabonis plays like a veteran and some of his foot and body movement reminds me of Bird. His high reach shot is Detlef like. This doesn't mean that I think he is Bird or Detlef. If anything, it means we have a white dude that's highly skilled that reminds me of acouple other white dudes which one of them possessed similar skill at the age of 20. That's all!

    Let's hope Sabonis harnesses that fire for many years to come!

    Oh and btw, for those that can't see it, sorry about ya. But I do have an eye for successful basketball players. Only strike out I've made in the last decade is DC, I did think he'd get much better. Which in some ways, he has.
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 07-23-2017 at 12:45 PM.
    Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchConnection View Post
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    I'm sure that I could find similar articles written about the Nets every year. I think that Conrad just came up with the team marketing slogan: Pacers Basketball, Not All That Bad!

    Just looked at the 2015-2016 Orlando Magic roster. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../ORL/2016.html. It looks a lot like ours. Talented young bigs, Vic at the 2. Our advantage is that Sabonis and Turner as a combo may be better than Vucevic and whoever (old Channing Frye), but they had Evan Fournier in the backcourt and Tobias Harris on the wing. The PG situation is similar (Payton is better than DC now, but he was still learning then). They won 35 games that year. That I think is our ceiling, unless Sabonis shows real growth and/or Leaf is better than we think. I'll watch and go to a game or two, but I'm ready to be excited about 5 game win streaks all over again.
    Great example. I often wish the Pacers fanbase would keep one eye more on what non superstar teams are doing to put our own issues/potential in perspective.

    The very fact that Bruon thinks of DC as the PG to compare to Teague is a sign he's way out of touch. CoJo is clearly much closer to the comparison and the natural starter, if for no other reason than he's on the upswing rather than having already topped out and starting to drift out of the NBA in 4 years. And regardless, Teague's handles and ability to drive were elite. While I preferred Hill for his fit with PG and the roster more, there was no doubt that in overall talent the 2 are comparable, just skilled in different ways. DC was never in the area of Hill at all.

    Then to say that Thad and Myles didn't work? That doesn't make any sense. If anything we saw a huge impact when Thad got injured, carrying over to his return when his wrist was still clearly holding him back from full impact. Thad allowed Myles to block-hawk a lot more and covered up a lot of the youthful mistakes that Myles makes. You put Myles and Sabonis on the frontline together and your defensive awareness goes in the toilet. Sure, 3 years from now that could be a beast pairing, but not today.


    The Magic comparison is especially troubling because they had Vuce in his prime go-to scoring level. That gave them some level of identity on the offensive end, whereas this Pacers roster will have none. Yes the Myles pick and pop will be something, but you don't build a primary offense around that. That's typically the supplemental threat that keeps the defense honest when they try to stop your primary attack.

    You'll have some CoJo and DC pick and pops for 10-18 points total but again that's not an offense. You'll have Lance PnR with guys like Seraphin and perhaps Thad, but that's probably your bench offense and not the primary identity, simply because I doubt you want guys like Seraphin being your primary offensive touch guys.


    Oladipo is a bit of something to work off of as a break down scorer, but up till now he hasn't been good enough to be the main guy (thus the Magic's issues partially).


    The team is overloaded with "kinda okay" and that's not enough to win matchups in a way that demands that the defense do something they aren't comfortable with. No one draws doubles or forces awkward switches, etc. And that's going to be a problem. PG could frustrate with his care of the ball and not always being great at getting others involved, but he 100% drew double teams if for no other reason than teams didn't respect any of the other scorers. That issue is not improved with these moves.


    I'm not mad about what Pritch has done. It's the nature of the circumstances. But let's not sugarcoat it with visions of grandeur in which our hamburger is actually filet mignon. Just grab the ketchup and fries and prepare to enjoy a backyard cookout instead of a 5 star meal.

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