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Thread: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    My only point was I'm giving Nate more than one year before I judge. A coach with a winning record almost 10 years ago who has done a lot of stuff in between probably has learned some things. It's fine if you think Nate was and will always be an average coach, I just don't think that's a fact.
    There is no point in giving Nate McMillan another year to make a judgment. We've had more than enough time to know what he brings as a coach. He's also had more than enough time to show what he's learned. This is the third franchise where he has been head coach over the course of 16 years.

    Nate has had a fair amount of success in the NBA. He's also been blessed with a lot of talent. He's had many star players including Gary Payton, Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Nicolas Batum, Gerald Wallace, Andre Miller, Wesley Matthews, Marcus Camby, Zach Randolph, Vin Baker, Paul George, etc. He's basically hit the lottery on talent. Yet...his results in the playoffs have not been good.

    Nate's teams have made the playoffs 6 of his 12 seasons coaching. Even though he's had many teams loaded with talent, he has lost in the first round 5 of 6 times. That is not a good indicator of a great coach.

    In contrast, Vogel made the playoffs 4 of 5 years and only lost in the first round once while going to the ECF twice.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Now I wonder just how much the "mentally drained by it all" superstar's attitude had a poor impact on the team?
    You mean the selfish dude? The dude who didn't care about anyone but himself, leaking his plans which destroyed his trade value?

    I will give this to Paul. He played well in the playoffs. He just mailed it in most of the season and whined like a baby throughout the year.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There is no point in giving Nate McMillan another year to make a judgment. We've had more than enough time to know what he brings as a coach. He's also had more than enough time to show what he's learned. This is the third franchise where he has been head coach over the course of 16 years.

    Nate has had a fair amount of success in the NBA. He's also been blessed with a lot of talent. He's had many star players including Gary Payton, Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Nicolas Batum, Gerald Wallace, Andre Miller, Wesley Matthews, Marcus Camby, Zach Randolph, Vin Baker, Paul George, etc. He's basically hit the lottery on talent. Yet...his results in the playoffs have not been good.

    Nate's teams have made the playoffs 6 of his 12 seasons coaching. Even though he's had many teams loaded with talent, he has lost in the first round 5 of 6 times. That is not a good indicator of a great coach.

    In contrast, Vogel made the playoffs 4 of 5 years and only lost in the first round once while going to the ECF twice.
    Oh goodness, just take a moment to google how many times his best players were injured in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Oh goodness, just take a moment to google how many times his best players were injured in the playoffs.
    If he's consistently finding his players injured, perhaps he didn't make sure they were conditioned. Another bad sign.

    Look, he's just not that good. Nobody is saying he's a bad coach but I can guarantee you that if the Pacers start gearing up with a team worthy of contending, Nate will be shown the door because it will be apparent he's not the right guy to lead them.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If he's consistently finding his players injured, perhaps he didn't make sure they were conditioned. Another bad sign.

    Look, he's just not that good. Nobody is saying he's a bad coach but I can guarantee you that if the Pacers start gearing up with a team worthy of contending, Nate will be shown the door because it will be apparent he's not the right guy to lead them.
    Lol, what?

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Lol, what?
    I'm not sure why you care so much about Nate McMillan. He's like a journeyman coach. He can fill the position for awhile along the lines of Bo Hill. But nobody is going to be excited because he's your head coach.

    See, when he entered the coaching ranks he had an excellent reputation. Seriously, a darling around the league. He had played for the Sonics just 4 years earlier. But over time people learned he was pretty much mediocre. He's just not above average in any way.

    Also, this idea that we need to give him time is ridiculous. We know exactly what he can do, which is fill the chair.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I'm not sure why you care so much about Nate McMillan. He's like a journeyman coach. He can fill the position for awhile along the lines of Bo Hill. But nobody is going to be excited because he's your head coach.

    See, when he entered the coaching ranks he had an excellent reputation. Seriously, a darling around the league. He had played for the Sonics just 4 years earlier. But over time people learned he was pretty much mediocre. He's just not above average in any way.

    Also, this idea that we need to give him time is ridiculous. We know exactly what he can do, which is fill the chair.
    I never said the Pacers need to give him more time. I said if KP is keeping him on, I'm willing to give him more than a year. I trust Simon and KP to not keep on a coach they don't want during this critical time developing youth, and I trust KP to build the team.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    I never said the Pacers need to give him more time. I said if KP is keeping him on, I'm willing to give him more than a year. I trust Simon and KP to not keep on a coach they don't want during this critical time developing youth, and I trust KP to build the team.
    He'll be fine for now. On that, we agree. Nate fits right in the middle of our coaches over the last 20 years IMO. That isn't bad.

    Edit: with that said, you did say you would be giving him more time and reserving judgment.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 07-16-2017 at 01:13 PM.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Agree to disagree. I think KP has brought in his Blazer guys and being below average is a bad thing. Honestly I think it's absurd to argue otherwise.
    Were we discussing whether being below average is a bad thing? No, we weren't. Allow me to quote the post I was responding to:

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Sigh. I guess go back and read the thread. Unless you think below average isn't bad.
    In that post above you are implying that below average and bad are the same. This is simply untrue. Like most things in life, coaching can be graded on a spectrum. There is a difference between a below average coach and a bad coach. A bad coach will actively hurt your team. A below average coach won't really do that. In Nate's coach, the majority of us that have been critical of Nate in this thread haven't even said that he's below average. I said that he's average, cdash said that he isn't bad and BnG initially said that Nate is below average and then revised it and said that average is more suitable for him. A coach like Nate won't hurt the team like a bad coach would. He won't hurt the team like JOB or Zeke did. He just isn't going to help the team take the next step.

    So, is having an average coach a bad thing? It depends. If you're contending then yes it is. You need a coach that can help you take the next step and an average coach will most likely be unable to do that. But when you're rebuilding then it's not really a big deal.

    Would I prefer it if we were to go and look for a different coach right now? Frankly, yes. I believe that young players need a direction and an identity so I want a coach that can shape an identity for our team. I don't think that Nate can do that. But I don't expect Nate to get fired. As I said before, we're rebuilding and I don't think that KP cares about record a lot right now. I fully expect him to go with a different coach when we're planning to contend, though.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Were we discussing whether being below average is a bad thing? No, we weren't. Allow me to quote the post I was responding to:



    In that post above you are implying that below average and bad are the same. This is simply untrue. Like most things in life, coaching can be graded on a spectrum. There is a difference between a below average coach and a bad coach. A bad coach will actively hurt your team. A below average coach won't really do that. In Nate's coach, the majority of us that have been critical of Nate in this thread haven't even said that he's below average. I said that he's average, cdash said that he isn't bad and BnG initially said that Nate is below average and then revised it and said that average is more suitable for him. A coach like Nate won't hurt the team like a bad coach would. He won't hurt the team like JOB or Zeke did. He just isn't going to help the team take the next step.

    So, is having an average coach a bad thing? It depends. If you're contending then yes it is. You need a coach that can help you take the next step and an average coach will most likely be unable to do that. But when you're rebuilding then it's not really a big deal.

    Would I prefer it if we were to go and look for a different coach right now? Frankly, yes. I believe that young players need a direction and an identity so I want a coach that can shape an identity for our team. I don't think that Nate can do that. But I don't expect Nate to get fired. As I said before, we're rebuilding and I don't think that KP cares about record a lot right now. I fully expect him to go with a different coach when we're planning to contend, though.
    Below average coaching hurts you, period. Below average player development for example can be detrimental. This is a dumb argument. Below average is bad.
    Last edited by freddielewis14; 07-16-2017 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    A below average coaching hurts you, period. Below average player development for example can be detrimental. This is a dumb argument. Below average is bad.
    1) Below average isn't bad. They are different words for a reason.

    2) Nate isn't below average. I have no idea how many times you need us to tell you this. Nate is average. Period.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    1) Below average isn't bad. They are different words for a reason.

    2) Nate isn't below average. I have no idea how many times you need us to tell you this. Nate is average. Period.
    I don't need you tell me anything.

    1) Read the sequence of posts. BnG said Nate was below average and then clarified.

    2) Below average is not good in sports. A below average shooter. A below average finisher. A below average coach. That's bad. You do not want to have below average personnel.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    The NBA, where every coach is above average.
    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference


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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    1) Read the sequence of posts. BnG said Nate was below average and then clarified.
    Yes. And what was BnG's clarification? His clarification was that Nate is average. Here, I'll quote BnG's post:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    But like you say he's probably average. I will give him that although I did say below average in a prior post.
    Seriously, there's no one in this thread who's claiming that Nate is below average.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Yes. And what was BnG's clarification? His clarification was that Nate is average. Here, I'll quote BnG's post:



    Seriously, there's no one in this thread who's claiming that Nate is below average.
    Right, but for some reason you keep trying to argue me about the definition of below average.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The NBA, where every coach is above average.
    Well, except McMillan. He's below average - a phrase we today learned is synonymous with bad.
    Lifelong pacers fan

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Right, but for some reason you keep trying to argue me about the definition of below average.
    Yeah but that argument isn't really related to McMillan. I've made it perfectly clear that I consider McMillan to be an average coach. Not a below average or an above average coach. Not a bad or a good coach. An average coach. That has been my position since the beginning.

    I'm arguing with you about it simply because you used it incorrectly. I'm a translator and being a stickler comes with the territory.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Yeah but that argument isn't really related to McMillan. I've made it perfectly clear that I consider McMillan to be an average coach. Not a below average or an above average coach. Not a bad or a good coach. An average coach. That has been my position since the beginning.

    I'm arguing with you about it simply because you used it incorrectly. I'm a translator and being a stickler comes with the territory.
    You must be a below average translator, which I guess you wouldn't consider a bad thing. /green

    But seriously, you quoted my post after BnG said Nate was below average and had not clarified yet. At no point did I say you called Nate anything but average. You've just been arguing the meaning while repeating "nobody is saying Nate is below average." You just missed the sequence.
    Last edited by freddielewis14; 07-16-2017 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Yes. And what was BnG's clarification? His clarification was that Nate is average. Here, I'll quote BnG's post:

    Seriously, there's no one in this thread who's claiming that Nate is below average.
    I think we are parsing this a little too much. I basically gave Nate a C or C-. In most circles that qualifies as average. I will give him that. In some circles people might say that means he is ever so slightly below average. But it doesn't really matter. He's definitely in the average range. I hope that makes everyone feel good about Nate.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    You must be a below average translator, which I guess you wouldn't consider a bad thing. /green

    But seriously, you quoted my post after BnG said Nate was below average and had not clarified yet. At no point did I say you called Nate anything but average. You've just been arguing the meaning while repeating "nobody is saying Nate is below average." You just missed the sequence.
    If Nate is 6th out of 10 coaches, does that make him average or below average? 5 are better. 4 are worse. I think it depends on if you want to make an issue out of it. That's all I am saying in this thread.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Not sure what Nate has done for anyone to say he is a below average coach. He's got a lot of years under his belt and over a .500 record. Based on that he's closer to being above average than below average. It doesn't matter if you don't like him or think he is boring.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The NBA, where every coach is above average.
    Funny thing, it sound weird, but it is probably the actual truth.

    There are billion's of coaching jobs, and 30 head NBA coaches jobs. Those guys know what they are doing.

    I get your point, out of those 30 guys, someone is the best and someone is the worst. But the real truth is that there may be a below average coach in the league, but it is much more likely there are a 100 really good coaches.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Not sure what Nate has done for anyone to say he is a below average coach. He's got a lot of years under his belt and over a .500 record. Based on that he's closer to being above average than below average. It doesn't matter if you don't like him or think he is boring.
    Context matters.

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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    But seriously, you quoted my post after BnG said Nate was below average and had not clarified yet. At no point did I say you called Nate anything but average. You've just been arguing the meaning while repeating "nobody is saying Nate is below average." You just missed the sequence.
    Actually, the first time I quoted your post in this thread was before that. My reply to you was post #44 and it was the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Why? Bird was the one who called the shots when Nate was hired, not KP.
    This was a reply to the following post:

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    I just wish we had a great coach I believed in. And I'm completely on board with giving Nate a chance, he should get more than one season with us before we judge. But even I would be more confident with Vogel. Or just about any other candidates at the time. BUT, if we trust KP, which I think many do, we kinda have to trust the Nate hire.
    That post was post #38. Both of these posts are in the second page of the thread. BnG called Nate below average in the third page, post #55.

    But it's possible that you weren't talking about when we first interacted in this thread. You could be talking about when we started discussing the whole "Nate is a bad or a below average coach" point.

    This discussion essentially started with post #75. I'll quote it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Sigh. Who exactly called him a bad coach? It certainly wasn't me or cdash. Heck, it wasn't even BlueNGold. No one's saying that Nate's a bad coach. Well, some of the more knee-jerky posters on the forum may say stuff like that but like always we can ignore that. Nate isn't JOB. He's just an average coach. There's nothing wrong with that but it's just not something you really want around young players. You want coaches that can help them improve and reach new heights.
    But where was this post directed at? It was a reply to this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Nate isn't considered a contender caliber coach, but the fact that he is viewed as a bad coach exhibits the culture of today's sports. Either you're a perineal champion or you're trash.

    Nate has a winning record in 13 seasons.
    This post was post #53. Yes, this was before BnG called Nate below average. This post was part of your conversation with cdash. It wasn't directed specifically at him but it was between two posts that were so it's easy to infer that it was a part of the same conversation. Up until that point no one had called Nate bad or below average. I had called him average, cdash had called him not very good and BnG hadn't even posted yet.

    So, no. I don't think I missed a sequence. I just think that you were trying to make it seem like the "other side" was calling Nate bad and BnG's post gave you the perfect opportunity.
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    Default Re: Don't look now, but Pacers aren't all that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Not sure what Nate has done for anyone to say he is a below average coach. He's got a lot of years under his belt and over a .500 record. Based on that he's closer to being above average than below average. It doesn't matter if you don't like him or think he is boring.
    I cannot talk for everyone else but there are two main reasons why I consider Nate to be an average coaching and nothing more. His teams have tended to have poor defensive ratings and his playoff average is awful (36.8%).
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