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Thread: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

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    Member scar's Avatar
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    Default What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    A month or two ago, I made a post that alot of people hated. I was very critical of Jermaine, and I called him some names. Alot of people on this board have a pro Jermaine type flo, with some even have an anti Ron Artest thing going. I'm more of the opposite. I'll go into some more detail.

    First, seeing Tim Duncan pass out of double-teams and having trust in his teammates is very humbling. I hope alot of people realize what Jermaine O'neal does so very very wrong and see my point.

    Ok, Jermaine is a talented offensive player that is our leader. That is established. But what I feel is overrated about big JO is his significance to our team. When the Pacers played without JO, during the 7 game winning streak, they played with trust in eachother. When JO is playing, there seems to be a 'ME' aspect and JO especially, trusts almost no one.

    JO needs to trust his teammates. As the leader of this team, his attitude will be branded into the minds of his teammates. It'll be up to him to set the tone for everyone else, and if your designated franchise superstar doesn't trust anyone, how are the rest of his teammates going to instill trust in one another?

    How can JO change this? For one, I see Tim Duncan high five his teammates alot. I don't really remember seeing Jermaine do this alot. It may seem small, but a simple slap of hands can show appreciation for one another, and could actually play a big factor in coming together as a family.

    Another thing JO can do, and this one is actually the more important one, he can PASS OUT OF DOUBLE TEAMS!!! Show me anyone that can knock down a 15 foot jumper routinely while being double-teamed by the Wallace's. You can't. JO needs to learn that not only being double-teamed by the Wallace's, but being double-teamed by anyone significantly lowers your shooting percentage, and it also doesn't help us when the other team gets the ball back without the Pacers having gotten any points up on the board.

    I adressed this in another thread. I feel the Pacers really need to go after role players like Wesley Person. A veteran that doesn't seem to have an ego, can play in 10-15 minutes a game and be happy, and can knock down open 3's. JO needs to pass out of those double teams like Tim Duncan can. I'm not asking him to become a ball handeler and go Jason Kidd meets Brad Miller on us, just pass out of those double-teams. Ronnie, Stephen, Jamaal, Fred, James, Austin... they can hit wide open 3's, so why not pass it to them, instead of clanking another off balanced jumper and then arguing with the refs for 10 minutes.

    Ok, on to Ron Artest. I know alot of people hate him because of what he did, but if you get down to it, you should be hating Jermaine and Stephen too, because they were involved. If it isn't that, it's because of his track record. And sometimes bad people turn into really good people (my pastor use to steal car stereos). You don't give up on those you love, and I for one, love Ron. I will refuse to give up on him because no only is he the best damn defender in this league, but he's also one hell of an offensive force, and the best freakin leader we have. He's a leader, he has heart, and he's feared around the league because of his abilities. Ron is a beast, and I feel that he's one of those guys that will get you a championship if you invest in him.

    Would America have won the Civil War if they had given up on eachother?

    Would Bejamen Franklin have invented the spinning wheel if he had given up?

    Would I have written this completely boring irrelevant spinoff of Pauly Shores retarded speech in In the Army Now!?

    You can't give up on him, you've gotta believe!!!!

    Ok, I've also decided to put this in here because I apparently have alot of time on my hands. Enjoy.

    (Pacers at halftime during game 2 against the Pistons)

    Jermaine: Man, this sucks. We're gunna lose!
    Reggie: Where is your heart man?
    Jamaal: He's right, we're gunna lose.
    Rick Carlisle: Guys, I don't like this talk. Sure they are beating us and we are on our way to being down 2-0. Sure they are beating us pretty bad and our season will be over shortly if we don't play. Sure we're the underdogs in every game we play and that jerk Bill Walton loves to talk bad about us, but guys, What Would Ron Artest Do?

    (Rick Carlisle)
    What would Ron Artest do
    If he was here right now,
    He'd make a plan
    And he'd follow through,
    That's what Ron Artest'd do.

    (Jamaal Tinsley)
    When Ron Artest was at St. John's,
    Playing basketball,
    He had the schools 2nd triple double in their history,
    Against Seton Hall.

    (Jeff Foster)
    When Ron Artest was in the stands,
    Fighting Pistons fans,
    He used his magical fire breath,
    And saved Horatio Sans.

    (Scot Pollard)
    So what would Ron Artest do
    If he were here today,
    I'm sure he'd kick an *** or two,
    That's what Ron Artest'd do.

    (Reggie Miller)
    I want the Ron Artest we all remember,
    The one we saw before that night in November.

    (Herb Simon)
    I don't want David stern to d-i-e...
    I'd settle for a thumb tack to the eye...

    (Stephen Jackson)
    For Rick I'll be an defensive specialist too,
    Cuz that's what Ron Artest would do.

    (Larry Bird)
    And what would Ron Artest do,
    He'd call all the Pacer fans in town,
    And tell them to unite for truth
    That's what Ron Artest would do.

    (Dale Davis)
    When Ron Artest appeared on t.v.,
    He may have looked pretty dumb,
    But take pride in the fact,
    His album will never go platinum, (so he'll keep playing basketball)

    (John Edwards)
    And now that Ron is doing his time,
    We all were able to break out into this rhyme!


    (Everyone)
    Cuz Ron Artest doesn't take **** from an-y-body

    So lets all get together,
    And win this freakin game,
    And we'll shut down Rip and Tayshaun too,
    Cuz that's what Ron Artest'd do.

    And we'll shut down Rip and Tayshaun too,
    Cuz that's what Ron Artest'd dooooooo,
    That's what Ron Artest'd do.

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I kind of scanned through the post and stopped reading when I saw you had written a haiku to the Pacers team. Just kidding, But I'm pretty sure JO does trust his team-mates..He just doesn't have very good court vision. You also are forgetting the fact that he does pass the ball a little more than many people make it seem.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Nice song.

    The only thing I see slowing Jermaine down next season is injuries. I think he will do fine as a leader, and will become a more willing passer.



    Jermaine tried to take the team on his shoulders, and it didn't work. I think he realizes that, and will return a much more team oriented player. He has shown flashes of being above-average at passing out of the double teams, and is proven to be a hard worker in the offseason. I like to hope that he will address the issue, as it was his major flaw this season.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Member skyfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I agree that JO has to improve his passing game, but I think it isn't only his fault that our game became one dimensional at time when it was just throw it into JO in the post play. If that is our primary option then we become predictable and defenses can cut off JO's passing lanes better. How often do the Spurs run an iso for TD in the low block? Not all that often. Its mainly penetration by Parker and Manu, testing out the defense with Duncan setting high screens. This means Duncan's defender has to spend alot of time worrying about preventing penetration instead of solely focusing upon stopping Tim in the post.

    Rick should get JO setting alot more on ball screens, with DD setting off ball screens and hitting the boards. It will get JO more looks from around the top of the key, where he can use his length and speed to create offense from a position where he is able to make a broader range of passes. If we mix that up with low post iso's it will make our offense alot more varied and harder to predict.

    The other thing I think that JO alone can do, is improve his relations with the refs. Reggie is no longer here, it is undoubtedly his team to lead now. B1tch1ng to the refs doesn't help anything at all. I'd prefer he said nothing at all to the refs compared to the whinging he was doing this season. By all means take the refs aside and talk to them when the situation suits it but complaining when you dont get calls has to go.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    What would Ron Artest say? He would say,

    . .Roses are red,
    . . .violets are blue,
    . . . .Figs don't rhythm,
    . . . . . Boo, boo, boo.

    By (giggle,giggle,snort)

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    Member scar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    What would Ron Artest say? He would say,

    . .Roses are red,
    . . .violets are blue,
    . . . .Figs don't rhythm,
    . . . . . Boo, boo, boo.

    By (giggle,giggle,snort)
    Now tell the one that doesn't suck!

    By (Family Guy)

    And the rhyme was my rendition of a song from South Park. You can thank me later.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    JO trusts his teammates, he's just not a good passer. That's all. I don't know how you can possibly say Jermaine doesn't trust his teammates after watching Blackhole and Blackhole Jr.

    And for the record, I prefer What would Carth Onasi do? And if anybody can name that reference, you get a cookie.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I'm still dumbfounded by the number of people on here that blame JO for Rick's gameplan.

    JO shoots because Rick tells him, "You're the first option."

    Donnie gave JO a max contract. Rick makes him the first option. Reggie Miller defered to him. Bird is calling him out because he has high expectations for JO as a player and as a leader.

    Even if you think we're all a bunch of idiots, that's a bunch of bright basketball minds right there that all believe the Pacers' fortunes are tied to JO.

    There's no real debate as to who our "most important player" is. Everybody else needs to figure out their place in the "pecking order".

    Ron Artest better figure out "how to take ****" from JO. And if he does, then I hope JO - as a leader - is creative enough to find a reason to trust Ron when no reasonable reason exists.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'm still dumbfounded by the number of people on here that blame JO for Rick's gameplan.

    JO shoots because Rick tells him, "You're the first option."

    Donnie gave JO a max contract. Rick makes him the first option. Reggie Miller defered to him. Bird is calling him out because he has high expectations for JO as a player and as a leader.

    Even if you think we're all a bunch of idiots, that's a bunch of bright basketball minds right there that all believe the Pacers' fortunes are tied to JO.

    There's no real debate as to who our "most important player" is. Everybody else needs to figure out their place in the "pecking order".

    Ron Artest better figure out "how to take ****" from JO. And if he does, then I hope JO - as a leader - is creative enough to find a reason to trust Ron when no reasonable reason exists.

    First option means first look, not shoot first. Just because he's the first option, that doesn't give him the green light to throw up a bad shot when there's a better one, one pass away.

    If Rick is telling JO to shoot whenever the hell he feels like it, then I'll be the first one on the wagon to get Rick out of there, and I'll apologize for any negative things I've said towards JO.

    But I have a hard time believing a coach at the NBA level has the philosophy that his number one player should shoot with two people on him. Even an elementary kid recognizes if you have two players guarding one, then a teammate is open.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I'm not saying he shouldn't pass it, nor did I say its 'acceptible' for him to hog the ball.

    Rick, JO, Reggie, etc. all understand the pecking order. First we go to JO for a high percentage shot. And sometimes, JO while being double-teamed is the highest percentage shot available. (especially if the double-team came from Foster or DD). Sometimes, JO needs to pass the ball. Which he does/ is willing to do. He just doesn't always do it very well and he doesn't appear to have much confidence in his passing as we've seen him telegraph passes (easy to intercept) and then get gun-shy about it.

    I've said it before but JO really needs to spend a summer with Bill Walton.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I don't understand how a double teamed shot, which he usually uses the fall away jumper for it, is considered the highest percentage shot available.

    Unless the shot clock is low, he should ALWAYS kick it out if he's outside of 5ft and double teamed. It's just bad basketball.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I would love to chart a game and see how many times J.O shoots over a double team. I promise you it is very, very few times if at all

    I have all the playoff games taped so if anyone cares enough, I'll be glad to watch the whole game this weekend and I'll honestly report how many times he shoots when he is double teamed.

    Of course we could spend a day and a half discussing what a double team is.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    God, I love that film.

    Revision: Cause Ron Artest doesn't take **** from an-y-body (except Ben Wallace)

    So lets all get together,
    And kick Ben in the nuts,
    And we'll shut down Rip and Tayshaun too,
    Cuz that's what Ron Artest'd do.

    And we'll shut down Rip and Tayshaun too,
    Cuz that's what Ron Artest'd dooooooo,
    That's what Ron Artest'd do.

    (And then the kid with the flag falls down.)

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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I would love to chart a game and see how many times J.O shoots over a double team. I promise you it is very, very few times if at all

    I have all the playoff games taped so if anyone cares enough, I'll be glad to watch the whole game this weekend and I'll honestly report how many times he shoots when he is double teamed.

    Of course we could spend a day and a half discussing what a double team is.
    I'd agree. Unless you want to count the guy who comes over to contest the shot while Jermaine's already in the air ...

    No, he doesn't consistently find open people the way Tim Duncan did last night. But compared to three years ago, his passing and decision making out of the post are greatly improved. Just look at the rout of Boston in round one. Dump off, dump off, dump off. I think six or seven assists ...

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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I don't understand how a double teamed shot, which he usually uses the fall away jumper for it, is considered the highest percentage shot available.

    Unless the shot clock is low, he should ALWAYS kick it out if he's outside of 5ft and double teamed. It's just bad basketball.
    Because DD/ Foster/ Pollard can't catch the ball. And once they get it under control, they don't shoot a very high percentage anyway. There's a reason they are left alone to double-team JO. Now if the double team is coming from a competent offensive player, then (1) shame on the defense for their slow rotations and (2) hell yes, he should give it up.

    JO's knee and shoulder injuries led to (1) getting the ball further out this season than he usually gets it, and (2) more fadeaways, jumpers, and weak shots. But when JO splits the double team or goes to his right hand across the lane, he's nearly unstoppable no matter how many guys are guarding him.

    I guess I believe the fadeaway was overused this season because JO was not healthy at the beginning and end of the season, and not playing with a full roster during the middle. I don't think Rick is telling JO to shoot the fadeaways, I just don't think JO was strong enough to get his better shots.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I guess I believe the fadeaway was overused this season because JO was not healthy at the beginning and end of the season, and not playing with a full roster during the middle. I don't think Rick is telling JO to shoot the fadeaways, I just don't think JO was strong enough to get his better shots.
    That's also what I've been thinking. When JO was somewhat healthy for that short span of time after his suspension, he went to the hole quite often.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    That's also what I've been thinking. When JO was somewhat healthy for that short span of time after his suspension, he went to the hole quite often.
    That's exactly what I've been trying to tell people. During the games between his suspension and his injury, JO was a beast. An almost unstoppable force. This is where he had his monster 55 point game, and he had several more of nearly 40 and many 30+. He threw a lot of rebounds in there too. For a long time there if Rick called JO's number it was two points. This is the JO I think you'll see next year.

  18. #18
    PacersFan
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    I really liked that game against Boston where Jermaine got about 6 assists. That showed me that he has the ability to do it. The coaches just need to work with him on the timing. As I said on a earlier post, this timing only comes along with repitition. The players didn't have time this year to gel and get this timing right. Hopefully, they can stay healthy next year and suspension free to have time to gel.

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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil
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    That's exactly what I've been trying to tell people. During the games between his suspension and his injury, JO was a beast. An almost unstoppable force. This is where he had his monster 55 point game, and he had several more of nearly 40 and many 30+. He threw a lot of rebounds in there too. For a long time there if Rick called JO's number it was two points. This is the JO I think you'll see next year.
    That would be great if JO was as good as he was immediately after the suspension. But you have to worry about whether or not Ron would be happy about JO still being the main guy. Sure, he says in interviews that he's going to be a better teammate, but does he really mean it? I'm sure that Jackson has no problem with JO getting the majority of the shots, but I'm still a little worried about Ron.

  20. #20
    NamShub
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    And for the record, I prefer What would Carth Onasi do? And if anybody can name that reference, you get a cookie.
    Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

    You could also count the sequal, "The Sith Lords" where, if you make appropriate choices, he appears in a few cutscenes

    Make it a Double Stuff Oreo

  21. #21
    woman without a team
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraft
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    God, I love that film.

    Revision: Cause Ron Artest doesn't take **** from an-y-body (except Ben Wallace)

    So lets all get together,
    And kick Ben in the nuts,
    O.K.


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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by NamShub
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    Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

    You could also count the sequal, "The Sith Lords" where, if you make appropriate choices, he appears in a few cutscenes

    Make it a Double Stuff Oreo
    Oh, geez, Bushman got it? I'm so embarrased.

    Here you go.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  23. #23
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraft
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    (And then the kid with the flag falls down.)
    Butters, though he might have not had a name by then.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  24. #24
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    Default Re: What Jermaine O'neal needs to do to lead this team to the finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Huxtable
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    That would be great if JO was as good as he was immediately after the suspension. But you have to worry about whether or not Ron would be happy about JO still being the main guy. Sure, he says in interviews that he's going to be a better teammate, but does he really mean it? I'm sure that Jackson has no problem with JO getting the majority of the shots, but I'm still a little worried about Ron.

    look at the few games they played together at the beginning of the season....

    granted it was only a few games....but that is as good a barometer as we have.....reggie was out....so ron, jack, and jo were playing together.....foster and aj were out, as was bender....we didnt have dale...the team was very, very good...

    and the jo and ron looked very good together....

    this all has a tendency to get lost and passed off with everything that happened shortly thereafter....but theres a reason ben got mad....the pacers were kicking the crap out of the pistons....

    and this was with eddie gill getting significant minutes....

    this team was very, very good....its a shame we didnt get to see it for very long...

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