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Thread: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

  1. #26
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    you re-sign him
    And this is why this model needs to die. The player culture is completely different. They would rather join it, than build it. And the current CBA is not helping it. PG leaving should be the end of this era. I think it is time to trade potential for max. I think it is time to realize that playing the Walsh and Bird way no longer works. I think they should go into the luxtax. But it doesn't matter what I think.

    It is Simon's money not mine.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    I think Oladipo is going to be the best SG we've had here since Reggie (not as good as Reggie, just better than anyone else).
    And it rides on him then. But we don't have time to just go about getting CoJos and Bobos. I agree with a few here. We might have to trade some emerging players for another perimeter star.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    it'll be an option for one of the truly elite free agents.
    Denial. FA won't sign here unless we are looking like GSWs.

  4. #29

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    I guess I was in just as much shock as anyone else when it became apparent we had to trade PG, and then it took a few days to get over the fact we didn't (at least in this snapshot in time) get much in return.

    I then had to remind myself of the fact that it might take 2-3 years to sort out just what we got, both in the trade and in the draft. I recall when Jalen Rose was traded, thinking we obtained just a bunch of spare parts...but then one became DPOY and the other ended his career as a 2 time All-Star, and we got a serviceable backup point guard.

    Another 'horrible' trade, at least on paper and on the short-term, was the Dale Davis-JO trade...an All-Star with a 10-10 season swapped for a former HS player, 4 years in the league, who averaged something like 4 ppg.

    So, I guess I'm just willing to sit back and see what happens...see what we got...even in Nate's case. He's had some decent years in the past. Maybe part of the problem last season (and in his less-than-stellar seasons in the past) was that it was less about him and more about not having players who buy into the system. I'm was never sold on Frank being the all-everything coach, but after the O'Brien nightly browbeatings the players got, I'm sure they were more than happy to listen to another voice. Having a young, impressionable team who will listen...with a player who will lead by voice and example (Myles, Victor) can only help.

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  6. #30
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by solid View Post
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    PG is only a good defender when he's in the mood. Our overall defense will improve. Bog won't start, very long anyway.
    We'll win a similar number of games, and be MUCH more fun to watch. In total, we are not much changed. We need one more great pick up, and a dose of maturity to be a strong team. I think we'll see someone step up this year. Could be any of Sabonis, GRIII, or 'dipo. If we can manage to avoid the '18 playoffs, and get one of IKE/Leaf to live up to their po, then we will be looking pretty good by the '19 playoffs.
    A top 10 pick, and two of those five taking a step and we're a good team. The odds do not look terrible.
    No, PG is a good defender when he just shows up. he could be sleepwalking on the court and still be a good defender. He is a great defender when sufficiently motivated though.

    Our defense will improve? Not sure about that. If we assume Collison starts. I consider him a very slight downgrade from Teague - neither are very good. No doubt Dipo is better than Monta - but how many games did Monta start last year. But OK, upgrade at shooting guard. Small forward is a sharp downgrade. Even if Robinson III gets most of the time there. Power forward is the same. You can expect Myles to improve but how much? If effort is better, if chemistry is better - then the defense would be about the same as last year.

    General note: I am amused how it seems everyone is pointing the blame to PG for any of our failures this past season. OK, while I agree the best player should get credit and blame. I don't blame him for last season. I think last years team just minus PG - every thing else the exact same, wins 25 or 26 games. The chemistry wasn't bad because of PG it was bad just because of probably a dozen factors. But if you take PG off the team, the talent level much worse and the chemistry is still bad, so the team would have been much worse than it was.

    But yes, I will push back against the idea that all our problems last season were because of PG
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-13-2017 at 02:31 PM.

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  8. #31
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't blame him for last season.
    What stopped him from playing like he did the last 15 games for the entire season? He dogged for a significant portion of the year, thus giving us an impossible first round matchup. I don't blame all of it on him, but come on he gets a significant portion of the blame.

  9. #32
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    What stopped him from playing like he did the last 15 games for the entire season? He dogged for a significant portion of the year, thus giving us an impossible first round matchup. I don't blame all of it on him, but come on he gets a significant portion of the blame.
    He was channeling his "inner LeBron" resting up for the big playoff run

    Sittin on top of the world!

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  11. #33

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    No, PG is a good defender when he just shows up. he could be sleepwalking on the court and still be a good defender. He is a great defender when sufficiently motivated though.

    Our defense will improve? Not sure about that. If we assume Collison starts. I consider him a very slight downgrade from Teague - neither are very good. No doubt Dipo is better than Monta - but how many games did Monta start last year. But OK, upgrade at shooting guard. Small forward is a sharp downgrade. Even if Robinson III gets most of the time there. Power forward is the same. You can expect Myles to improve but how much? If effort is better, if chemistry is better - then the defense would be about the same as last year.

    General note: I am amused how it seems everyone is pointing the blame to PG for any of our failures this past season. OK, while I agree the best player should get credit and blame. I don't blame him for last season. I think last years team just minus PG - every thing else the exact same, wins 25 or 26 games. The chemistry wasn't bad because of PG it was bad just because of probably a dozen factors. But if you take PG off the team, the talent level much worse and the chemistry is still bad, so the team would have been much worse than it was.

    But yes, I will push back against the idea that all our problems last season were because of PG
    People are still upset PG isn't here, so are looking with rose-colored glasses on. Yes we have some interesting players, but Dipo was the best player on the Magic and that team managed to win 35 games. Why will that change now ? Lets compare Dipo's last season in Magic with the current Pacers team:

    Dipo/(I have no idea)
    Payton/CJ Watson
    Vucevic/Jason Smith
    Tobias Harris/Aaron Gordan
    Fournier/Ilyasova

    Pacers now have:

    Dipo/GR3
    Joseph/Collison
    Bojan/Lance
    Turner/Seraphin
    Young/Sabonis/Leaf


    Are the teams really that different in talent level?

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  13. #34
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I think it's likely the Pacers end up with about the same record as last year.
    Every time I start to think the same, I try to catch myself from being too rosey about things. But the thought has crossed my mind more than once. I think last year's team underperformed, and if the pieces do fit I think this team has a chance to overperform, landing them at about the same record as last year's team. But I need to see if they can play defense, and I need to see if they can play fast and keep them ball moving.

  14. #35
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    People are still upset PG isn't here, so are looking with rose-colored glasses on. Yes we have some interesting players, but Dipo was the best player on the Magic and that team managed to win 35 games. Why will that change now ? Lets compare Dipo's last season in Magic with the current Pacers team:

    Dipo/(I have no idea)
    Payton/CJ Watson
    Vucevic/Jason Smith
    Tobias Harris/Aaron Gordan
    Fournier/Ilyasova

    Pacers now have:

    Dipo/GR3
    Joseph/Collison
    Bojan/Lance
    Turner/Seraphin
    Young/Sabonis/Leaf


    Are the teams really that different in talent level?
    Well I said if everything goes great we could win 35 games at the absolute most. So OK. But Vucivic scored 18.2 per game and Dipo 16 per game and Fournier scored 15.4 per game. So maybe Dipo wasn't the best player on that team. We could examine the 2016 season and see they started out really well, in fact they were 19-13 (even after starting 0-3 and 1-5)

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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Well I said if everything goes great we could win 35 games at the absolute most. So OK. But Vucivic scored 18.2 per game and Dipo 16 per game and Fournier scored 15.4 per game. So maybe Dipo wasn't the best player on that team. We could examine the 2016 season and see they started out really well, in fact they were 19-13 (even after starting 0-3 and 1-5)
    Yes, I'm agreeing with you, I don't think they will be over 35 wins, because talent levels are similar, and I'm sure Skiles got them to work hard. I suspect Dipo will average 18 and Turner will average 18, with Turner taking Vucivic's place.

  16. #37
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    First we don't know if the chemistry will be good. You never know until you know. Second, I will mentioned the Nets last season had great chemistry, they played hard every night, they played the right way, all those intangibles they were good and yet they won 20 games - because their talent level was terrible.
    Didn't they also have injury issues on top of it all? And are we sure their roster last year is on par with the Pacers this year?

  17. #38
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    Yes, I'm agreeing with you, I don't think they will be over 35 wins, because talent levels are similar, and I'm sure Skiles got them to work hard. I suspect Dipo will average 18 and Turner will average 18, with Turner taking Vucivic's place.
    My memory of Dipo in Orlando was he really struggled when he was trying to be primary force. His ability to create halfcourt offense is suspect. His best scoring season 2015, he averaged 17.9 but shot 43% from the floor and 33% from three point. Even this past season when defenses doubled and tripled Westbrook, he only shot 44%.

    I think if Dipo is your best offensive player your team is going to struggle big time. The season Dipo averaged 17.9 per game the team only won 25 games.

  18. #39
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    Another 'horrible' trade, at least on paper and on the short-term, was the Dale Davis-JO trade...an All-Star with a 10-10 season swapped for a former HS player, 4 years in the league, who averaged something like 4 ppg.
    If we're very, very fortunate, Sabonis will be the closest thing to a 'JO trade' since back then. I was reading this earlier today and felt some encouragement that maybe, just maybe, he'll become something pretty good down the road:

    https://www.indycornrows.com/2017/7/...mantas-sabonis

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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Didn't they also have injury issues on top of it all? And are we sure their roster last year is on par with the Pacers this year?
    They had a lot of talent, just a bad team. No shooters and no way to score.

  20. #41

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    My memory of Dipo in Orlando was he really struggled when he was trying to be primary force. His ability to create halfcourt offense is suspect. His best scoring season 2015, he averaged 17.9 but shot 43% from the floor and 33% from three point. Even this past season when defenses doubled and tripled Westbrook, he only shot 44%.

    I think if Dipo is your best offensive player your team is going to struggle big time. The season Dipo averaged 17.9 per game the team only won 25 games.
    I suspect the same will be happening this year too. I really find that Dipo and Lance are similar players, with Dipo obviously being more disciplined.

  21. #42
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    There are different ways to judge how good a team is going to be in the future. One way to do it is to it position by position, player by player. You often see that prior to a playoff series. Team A could be better at 3 of the 5 starting positions, and Team A might have a better bench. So does that mean Team A is better than team B. Not really, maybe. If team B is the Thunder and you have Westbrook and PG dominating the games and it could be a huge mismatch.

    The way I like to judge a team when I am trying to determine how they are going to be. I judge a team by looking at their best player, their second best player and maybe their third best player. I do that first and foremost. I don't really care in the macro sense who the 7th man is, or even who their 5th best starter is.

    And when I do that with the Pacers, they really fall short. Who will be the Pacers best player. Turner, Dipo, Lance, who? You can pick whoever you like and I would argue our best player is one of the worst best players in the NBA. So this Pacers team will struggle. We don't have a star player or even close to one. We don't have nearly enough three point shooting to compete in todays NBA. We have too many poor defenders. Our best defender? is probably Cory Joseph. And he likely only play 20-25 minutes per game. Dipo is a good defender I would rate him second best, but he is not great, I would certainly rate him behind George Hill and PG.

    So if this team wins 30 plus games that would be a major accomplishment.
    This is a good point. Take an actual good team, take away their 3 best players, and you have the pacers.
    Lifelong pacers fan

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  23. #43
    Administrator Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Looking at the probable starters:

    Turner = Turner
    Young = Young
    Bog <<<<< PG
    Dipo >> Monta
    DC << Teague

    Still a significant net loss overall.

  24. #44
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    People are still upset PG isn't here, so are looking with rose-colored glasses on. Yes we have some interesting players, but Dipo was the best player on the Magic and that team managed to win 35 games. Why will that change now ? Lets compare Dipo's last season in Magic with the current Pacers team:

    Dipo/(I have no idea)
    Payton/CJ Watson
    Vucevic/Jason Smith
    Tobias Harris/Aaron Gordan
    Fournier/Ilyasova

    Pacers now have:

    Dipo/GR3
    Joseph/Collison
    Bojan/Lance
    Turner/Seraphin
    Young/Sabonis/Leaf


    Are the teams really that different in talent level?
    Talk about rose-colored glasses. Oladipo was definitely not the best player on that Magic team. Vucevic and Fournier were the two best players. Oladipo was at best 3rd. Oladipo had a lower eFG% than Fournier, Hezonja, and Gordon, less win shares than Vucevic, Gordon, and Fournier, less win shares per 48 than Ersan Ilyasova and Dewayne Dedmon as well as Vucevic, Gordon, and Fournier, and his assist% to turnover% was a bad 18.6:12.4.

  25. #45

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    To be fair PG second year wasn't off the charts good either. He had Danny Granger, David West, Roy Hibbert and George Hill. That was the lock out year and he was still a low useage player.

  26. #46

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    Talk about rose-colored glasses. Oladipo was definitely not the best player on that Magic team. Vucevic and Fournier were the two best players. Oladipo was at best 3rd. Oladipo had a lower eFG% than Fournier, Hezonja, and Gordon, less win shares than Vucevic, Gordon, and Fournier, less win shares per 48 than Ersan Ilyasova and Dewayne Dedmon as well as Vucevic, Gordon, and Fournier, and his assist% to turnover% was a bad 18.6:12.4.
    Yet he averaged the most minutes on that team. You're just proving my point. If Victor was the third best on that team, he is now the best player on the Pacers team, how is that going to win games

  27. #47

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    I think most people see Turner as the best player on this team. Certainly he is the most talented.

  28. #48
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Collision is not going to start very long either.

    Myles
    Lance
    'dipo
    Young (while he's here, Sabonis when he's gone).

    Those are your four best players. They will suck if you add a small guy who can't defend so that leaves:
    CoJo
    or
    GRIII
    We'l try both and the one who develops the most chemistry will be our fifth guy.
    That team will have better D.
    If your best player needs to be "motivated" to bother playing D then he sucks, and you are well rid of him.
    PG's scoring will be replaced with better team work, more balanced scoring, and possibly fewer turnovers.
    They'll be gritty and tenacious again, and we wont have to look at so much pleading to the refs.
    If we get off to a good start we'll win more games this season than last. I hope not.
    We'll probably start off with Bog and Darren so little fear of that. We'll get our stride, such as it may be, after those two find their proper place on the bench.

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  30. #49
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    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    By the end of the season we'll be a better team than we were last year (pre-Lance at least).
    We'll be more fun to watch and easier to cheer for from day one.
    Last edited by solid; 07-13-2017 at 06:05 PM.

  31. #50

    Default Re: The talent drop at small forward is massive... but what about the other positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    People are still upset PG isn't here, so are looking with rose-colored glasses on. Yes we have some interesting players, but Dipo was the best player on the Magic and that team managed to win 35 games. Why will that change now ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    My memory of Dipo in Orlando was he really struggled when he was trying to be primary force. His ability to create halfcourt offense is suspect. His best scoring season 2015, he averaged 17.9 but shot 43% from the floor and 33% from three point. Even this past season when defenses doubled and tripled Westbrook, he only shot 44%.

    I think if Dipo is your best offensive player your team is going to struggle big time. The season Dipo averaged 17.9 per game the team only won 25 games.


    How old was he? 22? Come on, fam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Looking at the probable starters:

    Turner = Turner
    Young = Young
    Bog <<<<< PG
    Dipo >> Monta
    DC << Teague

    Still a significant net loss overall.
    Not disagreeing with this, but the bench matters a lot, especially considering DC and Bobo won't play as many minutes as Teague/PG.

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