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Thread: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

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    Default Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Today on his ESPN podcast, Brian Windhorst broke a little news from Las Vegas, at least it was news to me. If this has already been discussed on here, then my apologies.....but I haven't seen it.

    According to Windhorst, the Pacers, on draft night, were offered the following for Paul George from the Denver Nuggets. I assume this was part of a 3 way deal with Cleveland, but in the podcast Windhorst did not specifically say that. This was the offer from Denver:

    Gary Harris, SG

    #13 pick in the 2017 draft. This pick became Donovan Mitchell, as Denver moved the pick eventually to the Jazz.

    Let's assume this offer is true. Should Indiana have taken it?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Harris is a 22 year old shooting guard from Michigan State, via Fishers Indiana, and Hamilton Southeastern High School. Last year for the Nuggets, he averaged 14.9ppg on 50.2% shooting, and he shot a robust 42% from 3 point range. More importantly to me, he is only making 2.5 million this year, and will be a restricted free agent with a small cap hold after this season.

    Comparing the financials and ages to Oladipo (who I also like, this isn't meant to disparage Victor), Harris is younger by 3 years, much cheaper now, with more potential team control in the future, and a vastly superior outside shooter. I think 9 out of 10 talent evaluators would agree that Harris is a better player and investment than Oladipo, me included.

    With the 13th pick, we could have went a bunch of different ways. Remember, that in doing this deal we supposedly still possess pick #18 as well. I personally would have gone with Donovan Mitchell at #13, and OG Anunoby at #18. If you prefer Leaf, you could also have had him at #18.

    Or, as we know now, we likely could have packaged #13 and #18 if we would have wanted to get to at least pick #10, because we now know that Sacramento dealt that pick for picks #15 and #20. Not sure what we would have done there, but I personally would have just kept both picks.

    So, if I were recommending moves to Kevin Pritchard, and if he would have followed my plan (based on what Windhorst reported today), we would have had:

    1. Gary Harris on a 2.5 million dollar rookie contract for one more year, then a small cap hold next summer.

    2. Donovan Mitchell at pick #13, OG Anunoby at pick #18, both on rookie deals.

    3. And we would have had approximately $23,000,000 more cap room to spend in free agency this summer, or perhaps to roll over to next summer.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What would I have done with the extra cap room we obtain by having Harris over Oladipo?

    The possibilities would have been to try and sign Gordon Heyward to a max deal, though there is no indication to believe Heyward was interested in coming here, to my knowledge.

    We could have done the same deal Brooklyn did with Toronto, and get Toronto's draft picks next year for Carroll, or been in position to take on other toxic deals for draft pick ransoms throughout the year.

    I bet we might have been able to trade for Greg Monroe into our cap space, and maybe have gotten him for very little, giving us a good player off our bench, yet who wouldn't interfere with cap space next summer.

    I would have signed Milos Teodosic instead of Collison, which would have also saved us money, assuming he would have signed here for the same amount. (which I know you can't assume, but go with me here)

    I wouldn't have done this, but we could have been a contender to sign Paul Millsap, since we can assume in this scenario that Denver obtains Kevin Love instead.

    We could have consider smart offers to Restricted Free Agents like Nikola Mirotic or Jamychal Green....even though our owner seems to discourage offers to RFA's for some reason.

    I likely would have still offered Bojan Bogdanovic the same deal, so assume he is with us still. I also would have made a major play for Jae Crowder in the Boston salary dump scenario, offering them something to where they could have possibly kept Avery Bradley, or perhaps I would have traded for Bradley somehow.

    Ultimately, I believe the package of Harris/Mitchell/Anunoby or Leaf (if you prefer, obviously I do not) plus the additional cap space both this summer and next summer would have been much, much better than what we actually did.

    In fact, I would consider the failure to take the Denver deal, if as actually presented by Windhorst as true, to be almost general manager malpractice. But am I wrong? What say you, Pacers digest?

    Tbird

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    We messed up if we passed on that deal.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    The only issue here is Woj reported nobody offered a lottery pick for PG after the trade deadline.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I'd hate to judge before I see how all the trades work out, but...man, that Denver package looks mighty fine.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I wouldn't have taken the deal. #13 is, okay I guess. But I'd want something under #10. Now if that pick is #8 or under and you swap out Harris for Jamal Murray or Jokic I'd do the deal.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    No. Harris will get more than Oladipo next year and I don't think he's a better overall player at all. And Sabonis has the same upside as Mitchell.

    And as a bonus: PG isn't on Cleveland.

    Edit: everything I heard about this deal is that Denver then swaps PG for K Love
    Last edited by brownjake43; 07-12-2017 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    If the Nuggets offered Harris an extension for what Tim Hardaway Jr. got, he'd be crazy to pass that up.
    #DBAP

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    If the Nuggets offered Harris an extension for what Tim Hardaway Jr. got, he'd be crazy to pass that up.
    Alright. Well I think Dipo is worth the extra 3m and 2 less years in the contract if he doesn't pans out then.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    On draft night, I would have passed.
    Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I don't like this scenario. If Harris works out we're paying him next year anyway and Harris doesn't have the experience of Oladipo. Sabonis is better than the pick we would have got. O.G. was absolutely trash last year for I.U., was mediocre his rookie year, and is injured, so never would have picked him. The last thing we would want to do is spend a bunch of money on an old player like Milsap for this team. I wouldn't want Monroe and I don't think we ever would have tried to sign a RFA.
    Danger Zone

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I think we did better. Harris is injured a lot. Besides, we wound up with a #2 pick and #11 pick.

  17. #12

    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    KP said they didn't want PG in the east, so basically we didn't take that deal. Furthermore, I think KP might have taken the Denver deal if he thought Gary Harris was much better than Oladipo. Guess his spite was stronger than how much better Harris was than Oladipo.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    KP said they didn't want PG in the east, so basically we didn't take that deal. Furthermore, I think KP might have taken the Denver deal if he thought Gary Harris was much better than Oladipo. Guess his spite was stronger than how much better Harris was than Oladipo.
    Where is it quoted that he said he didn't want PG in the east? I recall media outlets alleging or speculating to that, but did he actually say it himself?

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Gary Harris, nice young player. Injury prone. You trade PG for an injury prone player and pick #13 over Oladipo and last year's pick #11 and you should be fired on the spot.

    This is why you guys aren't GMs.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    The Pacers would've had to wait until Denver could've got under the cap after July 1st to make this deal. The Nuggets could've cleared cap space by renouncing Gallinari but I'm not sure KP wanted to wait until after free agency started to see if the Nuggets could work this out.

    This trade isn't that good either way. Certainly nothing that would make Gordon Hayward or any other max level player want to join the Pacers. Gary Harris, despite his shooting ability, is less of a sure thing than Oladipo.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    If the trade was Harris and #13 I would have definitely taken that over the package we got, and it isn't particularly close. I like Harris quite a bit and I absolutely love Mitchell and think he will be a stud. Everything I heard around that time though was that the actual offer was Harris, Lyles, and a pick protected enough to be considered a second rounder. I think you can make an argument either way on that package vs the one we took.
    Last edited by Wage; 07-12-2017 at 11:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    In hindsight I probably do that deal if it was there. Of course there was no way to know Mitchell would slide to 13.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I would've taken it when Mitchell was there...I think he's top 5 in this draft once the dust settles. I think it's too early for me to say he'll be better than Oladipo but if Gary Harris was also included then that combo is a lot better than Sabonis...yes he's a lottery pick from a garbage draft, dude would've been lucky to be picked in the 1st round of this draft.

    I hate that its very likely the Pacers were afraid to deal PG to Cleveland for pr/emotions boiling.
    Last edited by Cactus Jax; 07-13-2017 at 12:17 AM.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Nah, I'm much happier with what we got over this even if it is exactly how it was reported.

    I've seen a few Harris games and while he is a fine player I would actually prefer VO. Just more physical and IMO has more potential to upping his game. But then you throw in Sabonis on top of that? Draft picks are always overvalued. Sabonis was picked at 11 and by all accounts had a solid if unspectacular rookie season. But he still is young and has potential upside as well. The only reason I hesitate at all in this is because of Harris ability to shoot, but it does not make me hesitate enough to regret the deal at all.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Harris is way better than Oladipo and the 13 pick in this draft is way better than Sabonis.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    Gary Harris, nice young player. Injury prone.
    Calling Harris a "nice young player" is a huge understatement. He had an eFG% of .586 last year and was the best defender on the Nuggets last season at 22. He's not dealing with much injury-wise either. He had a nagging groin and he sprained his ankle. There's nothing to indicate that he's injury prone.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not you think Donovan Mitchell will be better than Sabonis.

    Mitchell looked a lot better in summer league than I expected. Sabonis had a statistically terrible season, and as Pacers fan last season I wanted him on the court when we played the Thunder last season, and that's not a good sign. But I do believe he'll improve and has the potential to be a solid 4th or 5th player.

    Who knows with Mitchell, but I think he has the potential to be a 2nd or 3rd player. And I'm a huge fan of defensive guards, and thinking about a Mitchell/Harris backcourt is a good thought. But then again, TJ Leaf "was at the top of the draft board", so maybe we take him at 13 :-(.
    Last edited by imawhat; 07-13-2017 at 07:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    No. Harris will get more than Oladipo next year and I don't think he's a better overall player at all. And Sabonis has the same upside as Mitchell.

    And as a bonus: PG isn't on Cleveland.

    Edit: everything I heard about this deal is that Denver then swaps PG for K Love
    Who cares if Paul is on Cleveland. You do what's best for your team.

    A young defensive PG to mold in Mitchell plus Gary Harris who is not only about as good as Oladipo already, but is a better fit next to other guys on our roster due to his shooting? I think thats a better deal IMO

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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    Harris is way better than Oladipo and the 13 pick in this draft is way better than Sabonis.
    lol

    Its impossible to make a statement as though its a fact when the #13th pick in the draft, has yet to play a regular season game. He very well could be, and I'm not exceptionally high on Sabonis either, but that's pure speculation

    I'm sure someone could list about 20 players at least that looked like complete studs in the first summer league, but never turned out to be anything more than role players or even cut

    No one knows yet how good any of these draft picks will be
    Sittin on top of the world!

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's discuss an alternative Pacers last few weeks, with the help of Brian Windhorst

    I actually don't have strong feelings about this, other than Harris + #13 doesn't seem miles better than what we actually got. It's cheaper for sure, but other than that it's not obvious to me that one package is substantially better than the other.

    In this situation, I would defer to the FO's judgement. Presumably they have better information than we do. Time will tell if they chose correctly.

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