Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 80

Thread: Though it won't happen...

  1. #26
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,841

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I have no doubt that we will get out of the first round so this is really moot anyway.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    If Isiah was so obviously bad at coaching the team, he should have been fired immediately after the playoffs.
    He WAS so obviously bad, and he SHOULD have been fired.

    Remember 20 threads at IndyStar all with "fire Isiah" in the title right after the Celtics series? Remember PFFL's tirade against Donnie Walsh for NOT firing Isiah?

    The only people I know of who though Isiah shouldn't have been fired at the time were Isiah, Donnie Walsh, and perhaps you.

    Somehow Donnie came around. Perhaps it was a pre-condition for Bird signing on.

    Better a little late than never.

    With Isiah at the helm, this we'd be playing a lot like the Hornets. Rudderless.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  3. #28
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Two points I would like to make:

    1. With all this winning, it had been pretty boring around here. Sure I don't want a lot of detractors posting but New Yawk postings have given this board some needed life-though I reitterate that I don't want a lot of trolls posting-not the New Yawk is a troll.

    2. What do I get out of New Yawk's original post? That he's upset with Isiah being fired by Indiana last summer because his team is now stuck with him and he's made their cap situation worse to put together a team that isn't even a .500 team but may make the playoffs. If he liked Isiah he would be more positive about having Isiah and less negative about the Pacers firing him.
    1. I appreciate the nod. Thanks.

    2. I'm a bit confused by what you mean here. Please clarify.

  4. #29
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,928

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Two points I would like to make:

    1. With all this winning, it had been pretty boring around here. Sure I don't want a lot of detractors posting but New Yawk postings have given this board some needed life-though I reitterate that I don't want a lot of trolls posting-not the New Yawk is a troll.

    2. What do I get out of New Yawk's original post? That he's upset with Isiah being fired by Indiana last summer because his team is now stuck with him and he's made their cap situation worse to put together a team that isn't even a .500 team but may make the playoffs. If he liked Isiah he would be more positive about having Isiah and less negative about the Pacers firing him.
    1. I appreciate the nod. Thanks.

    2. I'm a bit confused by what you mean here. Please clarify.
    I think the line of reasoning you've used in this thread has caused you to be mistaken for a Knicks fan!

    Looking back over the thread I can see where Big Mac got that idea... tho I've never known you to be a Knicks fan.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  5. #30
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    If Isiah was so obviously bad at coaching the team, he should have been fired immediately after the playoffs.
    He WAS so obviously bad, and he SHOULD have been fired.
    I wasn't posting last season, but I have plenty of earwitnesses (like all the rest of Section 222 ) that know I wanted him fired after Game #1 of that series. I would have been fine with promoting Brendan Malone mid-series just to get The Idiot away from the trainwreck he created create.

    He was only retained because he was going to be paid for this season anyway. As bulletproof will tell anyone that will listen (and even those that refuse to listen), they eventually figured out a way to afford to pay him to go away. He was expensive, so it took some time to work out the finances.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #31
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    [quote="pacertom"]


    The only people I know of who though Isiah shouldn't have been fired at the time were Isiah, Donnie Walsh, and perhaps you.
    As usual, your memory is HIGHLY selective Tom. Chcbearsfan and VerbalSlap4U shared my opinion on Thomas, as did a few others in the Star forum.

    Also, in your mind if everyone in the forum is screaming about something, it simply MUST be true. I mean, everybody complained and whined like no tomorrow when Donnie Walsh traded Dale Davis for JO. Therefore, it simply MUST have been a bad trade. ed:

    Your opinion is noted and respected, but don't go thinking that I and I alone have this opinion about Isiah. Many feel this way. You just choose to pretend they don't exist.

  7. #32

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    He was only retained because he was going to be paid for this season anyway. As bulletproof will tell anyone that will listen (and even those that refuse to listen), they eventually figured out a way to afford to pay him to go away. He was expensive, so it took some time to work out the finances.
    That's a good way of putting it.

    Plus Donnie is an extremely loyal guy and genuinely liked Isiah as a person. But even he would have liked to have replaced Isiah with JVG during the collapse. I'm sure finances came into play. I'm sure loyalty came into play. I'm sure a reluctance to admit that he made a mistake figured into it as well. But once he hired Bird he had to let him do his thing. Plus I suspect hiring Larry and turning the responsibility of coaching over to him was a fate accompli—something that Donnie really wanted to happen, but was too loyal and concerned about the team's finances to do on his own. If not for Larry, Isiah would have been back this season, or at the very least would have started the season. Whether or not he would have made it through the entire season, well, we'll never know.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    don't go thinking that I and I alone have this opinion about Isiah. Many feel this way. You just choose to pretend they don't exist.
    I'm sure that if you decide that you believe that the Earth is flat, you will notice a few others who share your opinion, the members of the Flat Earth Society.

    That doesn't mean that your opinion is even remotely connected with reality or mainstream thought.

    The series vs. the Celtics last year was not an upset. Awful coaching played a role in unraveling that Pacers team long before the playoffs began.

    The play of this years' team, in contrast, shows us that coaching matters.

    If the Pacers win an NBA championship, that date will be a holiday in my book. The day that led us on the path to the championship, though, was the day that Isiah was FINALLY fired.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  9. #34
    Formerly PacerFanInAZ Cactus Jax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Tucson AZ
    Age
    30
    Posts
    4,056
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Look, if the Pacers don't make it out of the 1st round, with no major injuries or anything, then the roster needs to be shaken up, not the coach being fired. It would be proven that this group of characters can't win when it counts, and something would need to change. I still think some changes will be made regardless of the result.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

  10. #35
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    don't go thinking that I and I alone have this opinion about Isiah. Many feel this way. You just choose to pretend they don't exist.
    I'm sure that if you decide that you believe that the Earth is flat, you will notice a few others who share your opinion, the members of the Flat Earth Society.

    That doesn't mean that your opinion is even remotely connected with reality or mainstream thought.

    The series vs. the Celtics last year was not an upset. Awful coaching played a role in unraveling that Pacers team long before the playoffs began.

    The play of this years' team, in contrast, shows us that coaching matters.

    If the Pacers win an NBA championship, that date will be a holiday in my book. The day that led us on the path to the championship, though, was the day that Isiah was FINALLY fired.
    And I'm sure if I provided quotes from people like Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neal, Al Harrington, Donnie Walsh, and RICK CARLISLE that said Isiah was a "great" coach, you'd still say that your POV on this issue is "mainstream," and that mine (and Rick's; and JO's; and Reggie's; and Al's; and Donnie's) is in line with saying the world is flat.

    ed:

    The day you get over your blind hatred for Thomas is a day I will cricle on my calendar.

  11. #36
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,841

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Oh come on you dont expect all those guys to come out and trash Isiah no matter what they thought of him do you?

    No matter how bad he was they are going to pay him lip service.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...



    you just can't argue with people who think it's important that their amp goes to 11.



    Isiah was a great coach. The pathetic last half of last season and the playoff embarassment was a fluke. Surely retaining Isiah would have led to more glory. we'd be making a run at a 70-win season now.


    I'm in a NewYawk state of mind.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  13. #38
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,711

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Besides J.O, I don't think the other players were that sorry to see Isiah go.

    As far as Reggie is concerned, he has played for a 8 or 9 coaches counting the interim coaches, so he knows what a good coach is and what a bad coach is. He'll never say anything in public to his credit, but I don't think for one minute that Reggie thought Isiah was a good coach.

    This is just my opinion and no I don't have a link or facts to quote you, but I do follow things very closely and did have a source who used to be within the organization until I guess last season, My sense is that the players did not hate Isiah, in fact I think most liked him, but I don't think they respected him as a coach, at least not by the end of things.

    Carlisle on the other hand I think just the opposite, players may not like him, they may not want to spend a week with him and his family on vacation like they might with Isiah, but I am confident in saying that the players respect Rick's basketball coaching 100%.

  14. #39
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...



    you just can't argue with people who think it's important that their amp goes to 11.



    Isiah was a great coach. The pathetic last half of last season and the playoff embarassment was a fluke. Surely retaining Isiah would have led to more glory. we'd be making a run at a 70-win season now.


    I'm in a NewYawk state of mind.
    Again, NOBODY is saying we'd have won a championship with Isiah as coach, including myself. However, it is just as delusional to dismiss Thomas's accomplishments as it is to say we'd win 70 games with him still as coach.

  15. #40

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I have no doubt that we will get out of the first round so this is really moot anyway.
    Well, you know, winning isn't enough, there has to be SOMETHING wrong to talk about ALL the time ed:

    I think Isiah did some good things while he was here, too, such as developing Al and JO pretty well. As soon as they got into Isiah's system, they played well. I think we can give credit to Isiah for at least that.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  16. #41

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    However, it is just as delusional to dismiss Thomas's accomplishments as it is to say we'd win 70 games with him still as coach.
    Sorry, I must have slept through all of those great accomplishments. He became best buddies with a couple of players. A mentor.

    I was talking about COACHING accomplishments.

    I can't think of many.

    I don't hate Isiah, blindly or otherwise. He was the very best player of all time on my favorite college team. Tremendous player. He may be an adequate general manager. As a coach he simply was not good. I'm not saying he sucked, but he was not good.

    Being not good, but not quite sucking, is not adequate to hold a job as an NBA coach.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  17. #42

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    cmon dude... If you watched any of the playoffs with the celtics last year, you know how horrible a coach IT was. This shouldn't even be a topic.. I think anyone who has watched over 10 games this season knows for a fact Rick is 20x the coach IT was. Rick is gonna stay in Indy for a long long long time, at least as long as Bird is there.

  18. #43
    PacerStud
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    The day you get over your blind hatred for Thomas is a day I will cricle on my calendar.
    And the day you quit trying to shove your opinions down everyone's throat .................. touche`.

  19. #44
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    However, it is just as delusional to dismiss Thomas's accomplishments as it is to say we'd win 70 games with him still as coach.
    Sorry, I must have slept through all of those great accomplishments. He became best buddies with a couple of players. A mentor.

    I was talking about COACHING accomplishments.

    I can't think of many.[/b]
    131-115 record in three years as Pacers coach.
    3 straight years of playoff appearances. 5-10 in the playoffs.
    Took a dismantled Finals roster with an average age of 24 (the youngest team 3 years running) to the playoffs, and was competitive in each series. For some perspective, Paul Silas coaches (I believe) the youngest team in basketball right now. They will make the playoffs with a losing record in one of the worst Eastern Conferences in recent memory. Thomas never lost more than 41 games, maintained a winning record overall, and improved the team each year he was coach.

    These are facts Tom. Not opinions. So, when you say you can't think of many, that means you're either:

    Blind

    Blitzed

    or

    Crazy.

    [b]
    I don't hate Isiah, blindly or otherwise. He was the very best player of all time on my favorite college team. Tremendous player. He may be an adequate general manager. As a coach he simply was not good. I'm not saying he sucked, but he was not good.

    Being not good, but not quite sucking, is not adequate to hold a job as an NBA coach.
    He was good. The facts say he was. You can have your personal opinion about him, his methods, etc. He should have done this, benched this guy, played that guy, called a timeout, whatever. However, the facts say he was good. What degree of good is debatable, but to call Thomas "bad" or "medicore" screams ignorance and/or blind hatred. Again, your opinon is noted and valued, despite your arrogance and bitterness.

  20. #45
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    The day you get over your blind hatred for Thomas is a day I will cricle on my calendar.
    And the day you quit trying to shove your opinions down everyone's throat .................. touche`.
    Please point to anywhere in my posts where I try and cram my opinions down someone's throat. I've been cordial, honest, and accomidating throughout this entire thread. The venom is coming from folks like you and Tom (go fig). We can disagree. That's THE POINT of a forum. Don't get pissy or touchy because someone disagrees with you, and has the facts to back up his claims.

  21. #46
    PacerStud
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I've been cordial, honest, and accomidating throughout this entire thread.
    Oh.

    OK.

    ed:

    We won't talk about 3 straight 1st round exits. The most recent being the worst.

    We won't talk about the collapse last year - which led to our worst playoff performance.

    We won't talk about the rotations or lack of a late game plan.

    We'll just talk about how nice you are.

    Isiah did enough to earn his dismissal. More than enough. It's done, it's over and we're better off because of it. The team moves forward while others stay behind. Catch up, there's some good basketball being played by Carlisle's team.

    ------------------------------------------------

    My apologies are probably due. I'm sure this whole scenario has been debated here before at least once or thrice and I really don't want to get everyone going agin. It's just that there's a definite love for Isiah from NY here and I just don't get it. IT served a purpose - still unsure what that was. Now - Carlisle is in charge, doing better than IT and the team is performing well better than last year. I don't get why NY keeps hyping IT and defending him.

    Anyway.

  22. #47

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    The team moves forward while others stay behind. Catch up, there's some good basketball being played by Carlisle's team.



    Hey, can I use that line next time someone grouses about losing Brad?

  23. #48
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    However, it is just as delusional to dismiss Thomas's accomplishments as it is to say we'd win 70 games with him still as coach.

    -snip-

    131-115 record in three years as Pacers coach.

    3 straight years of playoff appearances. 5-10 in the playoffs.

    Took a dismantled Finals roster with an average age of 24 (the youngest team 3 years running) to the playoffs, and was competitive in each series. For some perspective, Paul Silas coaches (I believe) the youngest team in basketball right now. They will make the playoffs with a losing record in one of the worst Eastern Conferences in recent memory. Thomas never lost more than 40 games, always maintained a winning record, and improved the team each year he was coach.

    -snip-

    He was good. The facts say he was. You can have your personal opinion about him, his methods, etc. He should have done this, benched this guy, played that guy, called a timeout, whatever. However, the facts say he was good. What degree of good is debatable, but to call Thomas "bad" or "medicore" screams ignorance and/or blind hatred.

    That's your definition of good?

    In my world, that qualifies as "barely passing."

    Let's review Jay's grading scale:
    Winning a championship = A
    Losing in game seven of The Finals = A-
    Losing in game six of The Finals = B+
    Losing in game five of The Finals = B
    Losing in game four of The Finals = B-
    Losing in game seven of the ECF = C+
    Losing in games four, five or six of the ECF = C
    Losing in East semis = C-
    Losing in first round = D
    Not making playoffs = F

    But hey, I just had to fire a very, very smart University of Michigan business school grad because he had sloppy work habits resulting from a simlilar definition of "good". Among other problems, he was proud of himself that his work was 90% right and only 10% needed re-work. But everyone else around here strives for and achieves > 99.0% accuracy.

    You, on the other hand, will annoint a barely-over-0.500 coach as "good."

    The difference is clearly in the definition of "good." That's fine, but I'm sticking with the higher grading scale.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #49
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I've been cordial, honest, and accomidating throughout this entire thread.
    Oh.

    OK.

    ed:

    We won't talk about 3 straight 1st round exits. The most recent being the worst.

    We won't talk about the collapse last year - which led to our worst playoff performance.

    We won't talk about the rotations or lack of a late game plan.

    We'll just talk about how nice you are.

    Isiah did enough to earn his dismissal. More than enough. It's done, it's over and we're better off because of it. The team moves forward while others stay behind. Catch up, there's some good basketball being played by Carlisle's team.

    ------------------------------------------------

    My apologies are probably due. I'm sure this whole scenario has been debated here before at least once or thrice and I really don't want to get everyone going agin. It's just that there's a definite love for Isiah from NY here and I just don't get it. IT served a purpose - still unsure what that was. Now - Carlisle is in charge, doing better than IT and the team is performing well better than last year. I don't get why NY keeps hyping IT and defending him.

    Anyway.


    I'm not "hyping" Thomas. Merely giving him his due, something you seem unwilling and incapable of doing for whatever reason. I know one thing for certain, your reasons for hating Thomas have nothing to do with basketball. His coaching resume is good. Not great. Not medicore. Not bad. Good. You ignore all the positives he gave this franchise and focus SOLELY on the negatives. Mind you, I was not opposed to Thomas getting fired. Anybody can get fired for ANYTHING. Larry Brown (considered by many to be one of the best caoches on the planet) was fired by the Pacers. However, I was upset with HOW Thomas was let go.

    What I don't get is the complete blind hatred you and tom seem to have for Thomas. What did this guy do to you? Does he have pictures of you in a dress in bed with a circus miget? I mean, come on guy! Thomas was a good coach. Carlisle is better, no question, but give Thomas his due. We would not have the record we have now, and the quality players on our rsoter, without Thomas's teaching. That is just a plain, simple fact. Your failure to see or even ACKNOWLEDGE that is baffling.

  25. #50
    NewYawk
    Guest

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    However, it is just as delusional to dismiss Thomas's accomplishments as it is to say we'd win 70 games with him still as coach.

    -snip-

    131-115 record in three years as Pacers coach.

    3 straight years of playoff appearances. 5-10 in the playoffs.

    Took a dismantled Finals roster with an average age of 24 (the youngest team 3 years running) to the playoffs, and was competitive in each series. For some perspective, Paul Silas coaches (I believe) the youngest team in basketball right now. They will make the playoffs with a losing record in one of the worst Eastern Conferences in recent memory. Thomas never lost more than 40 games, always maintained a winning record, and improved the team each year he was coach.

    -snip-

    He was good. The facts say he was. You can have your personal opinion about him, his methods, etc. He should have done this, benched this guy, played that guy, called a timeout, whatever. However, the facts say he was good. What degree of good is debatable, but to call Thomas "bad" or "medicore" screams ignorance and/or blind hatred.

    That's your definition of good?

    In my world, that qualifies as "barely passing."

    Let's review Jay's grading scale:
    Winning a championship = A
    Losing in game seven of The Finals = A-
    Losing in game six of The Finals = B+
    Losing in game five of The Finals = B
    Losing in game four of The Finals = B-
    Losing in game seven of the ECF = C+
    Losing in games four, five or six of the ECF = C
    Losing in East semis = C-
    Losing in first round = D
    Not making playoffs = F

    But hey, I just had to fire a very, very smart University of Michigan business school grad because he had sloppy work habits resulting from a simlilar definition of "good". Among other problems, he was proud of himself that his work was 90% right and only 10% needed re-work. But everyone else around here strives for and achieves > 99.0% accuracy.

    You, on the other hand, will annoint a barely-over-0.500 coach as "good."

    The difference is clearly in the definition of "good." That's fine, but I'm sticking with the higher grading scale.
    Your are certainly entitled to your standards Jay. However, by your own standards, more than half of the NBA coaches this year flat out stink (only 16 teams make the playoffs, with 8 of those 16 losing in the first round). Another 4 will lose in the semis. I mean, the best team in the east (in order to get a friggin B) needs to go to game 5. So, to use your own standard, if Larry Brown loses in the east semis to Indy, he stinks. He gets a C-, and last I checked that isn't too good (especially considering Detroit fired our current coach to get Larry).

    Your standards are your own, but the sound a bit harsh to me. And holding soemone like Isiah Thomas (who, for much of his coaching career, did not have the mature talent Carlsile now has, not did he coach in an Eastern Conference as weak as this one) to these standards is also a bit much.

    My opinion.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •