Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Though it won't happen...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Though it won't happen...

    ...if the Pacers were to lose in the first round of the playoffs, Rick Carlisle should be fired on the spot. He was hired SOLELY to do what Isiah Thomas supposedly couldn't-- get Indy deeper into the playoffs. I'm reading a lot of nervous posts about the Cavs (what?!) and the Pistons. People, please. The Pacers will not lose to these teams.

    HOWEVER, if they did, Carlisle should go, and Bird with him. I, personally, have a zero tolerance level with these guys. They were supposed to be the saviors that could come in here and get Indy over the hump. Many of you that are wringing your hands, worrying, were the ame people that called for Isiah's head the SECOND the clock hit ZERO after he coached his first PRESEASON GAME. And when he was fired and Rick hired , you all jumped up and down for joy. Now, it's Rick's turn to show WHY he was brought here, and I fully expect you who bashed Thomas to have the same zero tolerance for Rick, because anything less is hypocricy.

    I fully expect Rick's team to floor anybody they face in the playoffs. He is a better coach than Isiah, who was in his own right a good coach. Just ask Rick, or Reggie, or Jermaine, or anyone else in the Pacer org not named Larry Bird. however, if he doesn't get indy to the next level, that simply proves that making a coaching change was a mistake. IMO, Rick will coach Indy to the next level. I am supremely confident. My question for all the anti-Thomas/pro-Rick crowd is this: why aren't you?

  • #2
    Re: Though it won't happen...

    NewYawk, I'm glad you're posting here, but I think you're trolling a bit.

    At this point, losing in the first round is not an option, so I don't see any value in discussing what will not be allowed to happen by our current band of warriors.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Though it won't happen...

      Even if we somehow did lose (highly unlikely), Rick is still a much better coach than Isiah, so you still keep him for the next year.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Though it won't happen...

        NewYawk, I'm glad you're posting here, but I think you're trolling a bit.

        At this point, losing in the first round is not an option, so I don't see any value in discussing what will not be allowed to happen by our current band of warriors.
        No, I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything like that. I just see a lot of worry warts talking about the friggin Cavs as if they pose some sort of threat. These same worriers used to bash Thomas senseless, and still do, for holding Indy back from beating these teams. I've stated over and over again that I love Carlisle's coaching and am very happy he's the Pacer's HC. HOWEVER, if he proves no different than Thomas in the playoff win column, Thomas shouldn't have been fired. Simple as that, IMHO. I agree, it won't happen. I'd just like to see a little more confidence from Pacer "fans" in their team. Worrying about the friggin Cavs suggests "fans" are not confident in Carlisle, and if they aren't confident in Carlisle to beat a bunch of wannabe playoff contenders, why was Carlisle hired?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Though it won't happen...

          If in 3 years we are still not making progress then it will be time to
          fire him. By progess I mean at least to the finals.

          owl
          {o,o}
          |)__)
          -"-"-

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Though it won't happen...

            If in 3 years we are still not making progress then it will be time to
            fire him. By progess I mean at least to the finals.

            owl

            Owl, I see this is your second post, must have missed your first post, welcome, post more often.


            if the pacers lose in the first round in 4 straight games, by over 20 points per game, Carlisle should not be fired. Of course if the world ended tomorrow no one will care.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Though it won't happen...

              I am supremely confident.
              I was supremely confident in 1999 that we'd win a championship with that team. I was cursing the lockout because I feared our "window" would close without a single game being played. Of course, that team didn't win, and to blame that collapse entirely on one blown four-point-play call from Jess Kersey demonstrates basketball blindness. That team, and the 2000 team, just weren't good enough to be champions.

              I'd just like to see a little more confidence from Pacer "fans" in their team.
              Since I was heartbroken by those teams, I'll keep worrying about whether the current Pacers are good enough until they David Stern hands us throphy and doesn't have his fingers crossed.

              Worrying about the friggin Cavs suggests "fans" are not confident in Carlisle, and if they aren't confident in Carlisle to beat a bunch of wannabe playoff contenders, why was Carlisle hired?
              My question for all the anti-Thomas/pro-Rick crowd is this: why aren't you [supremely confident]?
              Oh, you're not actually talking to me, because I wanted The Idiot fired earlier in the summer when JVG was still available.

              and I fully expect you who bashed Thomas to have the same zero tolerance for Rick, because anything less is hypocricy.
              Now hold on a minute. Prior to this season, I generally made the argument that coaching was overrated in the NBA - its a player's game. But for this team, coaching is paramount.

              Some of the "leading pessimists" (and long-time Pacers fans), myself included, had this conversation last week:

              What are the Pacers' Strengths?

              I will add that Brad Millerrrrrrrrrr ...no wait.... that wasn't what I was going to say. I got sidetracked

              Seriously, what I want to add is how well Carlisle manages the games. Besides his use of TO's he is consistent with his bench. You can argue that might make a game here or there harder to win... or arguable why we lost it. OTOH, IMHO this consistency is for the long haul and long term health of the team. Every game is not a playoff game. Throwing the kitchen sink at a meaningless midseason game hoping to pull out one lone win is sacrficing the longer term goals.

              I think it is far better the players know their roles and what is expected. If they got torched in a game it is something they and the coaching staff can learn from and adjust accordingly WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of the long term plans.

              Isiah IMO tried to turn every game into a chess match. Many times he outguessed himself. I'm sure he also planted seeds of doubt in players' minds. Did Isiah ever really try to make the other team adjust to what the Pacers' were doing or did he always seem to be countering their moves?

              -Bball
              I knew Isiah was awful and everything, but I've got two more points:

              (1) Last summer, even though I thought he had clearly earned the title "Worst Coach in Pacers history", I didn't realize just how horrible he was, because:

              (2) Rick has had great success by doing the exact opposite of everything Isiah did. "The Quick" vs. a structured offense. True man-to-man defense with no "help" structure vs. team defense. Stream of consciousness substitutions vs. fairly set rotations. Makes excuses for the team vs. requires discipline from the players. The "chess match" as bball called it vs. forcing opponents adjust to our gameplan. Tries to make every player a "complete" player vs. defining each player's role. Etc.

              Its almost like every time Rick has to make a decision, he thinks to himself "What would Isiah do?" Then he picks the exact opposite and it works.
              I don't have much to add to these two posts, except to say they are both brilliant.

              Rick should be ashamed for making Isiah look bad because he truly has.
              So if you had done your homework you'd find that many of the worries and pessimism have nothing to do with coaching.

              Personally, I'm worried about whether we're big enough in the post to deal with the Detroits/NOs of the world. I'm worried about our lack of playoff experience. I'm worried about our streaky perimeter shooting. I'm worried about our team's overall health. I'm worried about the mental toughness of certain players that have appeared more "on edge" lately.

              And these are all legitimate things to be worried about.
              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
              And life itself, rushing over me
              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Though it won't happen...

                I am very confident that the Pacers will beat whomever they play in the first second and third rounds of the playoffs. I expect us to reach the finals THIS YEAR

                But to say that we can not talk about teams that we see as a coming team is ridiculous. The Cavs have done a great job of putting their team together. Most people seem to only see LeBron but Boozer was a great pick for them.

                The Bucks took us to 5 games in 00 but I knew we would win but I was still thinking of them as a potential future team to be reckoned with. (Of course when Worst was jacking up bricks I was getting a little nervous)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Though it won't happen...

                  [quote="NewYawk"]
                  HOWEVER, if he proves no different than Thomas in the playoff win column, Thomas shouldn't have been fired. Simple as that, IMHO.
                  The logic of this statement seems a little iffy to me. The worst Carlisle can do is match Thomas's performance in the playoffs (lose in 1st round). If that happens, the worst you could possibly argue for Carlisle is that he's the same as Thomas....not good enough. If you're going by playoffs = everything. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have fired Thomas. Maybe you should have hired someone else (presumably better than either of them). But I don't follow how Carlisle failing to the same degree as Thomas means Thomas should have been kept. Non sequitur. You could argue Carlisle shouldn't have been hired, maybe, but that's all.

                  All of this, of course, ignores any changes in the team due to trades, signings, injuries/recoveries, experience, personal tragedies/issues last year, etc, etc.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Though it won't happen...

                    It sounds like New Yawk just doesn't like that Isiah was fired and Carlisle brought in. I think that explains a lot.

                    Carlisle is better than Isiah could ever think about being. He thinks. Isiah just thought he did. If we go out in the 1st this year, it won't be due to coaching - which was the case the last 3 years.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Though it won't happen...

                      Isiah was not a good coach. It should be painfully obvious how bad he was for this team byt this point.

                      He had 3 years to get out of the first round. For a couple of years we were just hoping to MAKE the playoffs and in his last season we were wondering how far back we'd fall in the playoff seeding. All the teams he fielded were wildly inconsistent.

                      So to look at what Carlisle has done, with IMHO less, and want his head if he'd happen not to get out of the first round THIS year is pressing things. If we did lose we'd need to see WHY we lost... and the odds are it would be a Pacer weakness got exploited. If anyone is to blame for that it would be management for not closing that hole.... And that is assuming that there is a loss. That is something that coaching has avoided in nearly 50 games this season.

                      Carlisle has shown he can get a team to the ECF's. He has shown can coach a team to 50 wins.. and do it again... and probably again....
                      What did Isiah show in 3 years time?

                      If the team would falter in the playoffs I find it hard to believe it will be a coaching issue. It will be a player/matchup issue. We then need to look to management to 'improve' us on paper to (attempt to) 'fix' that weakness.

                      Giving Rick Carlisle ONE lone year, and looking at the year we've had, is being rather short-sighted IMHO.

                      -Bball
                      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                      ------

                      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                      -John Wooden

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Though it won't happen...

                        Why does everyone always say we underachieved the last 3 years? Last year, of course we did, but am I the only one who remembers the teams we had before that.

                        Three years ago we had Austin at the 3, then an over-the-hill Derrick McKey, then a not-ready-for-primetime Al Harrington. We had Zan Tabak, Terry Mills, and a way-over-the-hill Sam Perkins at center. And we had prima-donna Jalen Rose running the point. Personnel wise, I think that was the worst team we've had in 15 years, and we still made the playoffs and played Philly pretty damn tight.

                        Two years ago we had a rookie at point, a not-ready-for-primetime Foster at center, and a pouting prima-donna Jalen Rose causing all kinds of problems. We lost our sixth man halfway through, then we trade for a new starting 3 and 5, and backup 1 and 2, go on a must-win streak to make the playoffs, and play the closest 1-8 series ever.

                        Yeah, last year we blew it, for a lot of reasons. But don't act like we had an All-Star cast those first two years.
                        Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Though it won't happen...

                          It sounds like New Yawk just doesn't like that Isiah was fired and Carlisle brought in. I think that explains a lot.
                          Okay, EVERYBODY else here had an interesting POV on this subject, EXCEPT YOU. Please find in my posts where I said, or even INDICATED, that I was upset that Isiah was fired and Rick brought in. I was unhappy in the way Isiah was treated. If he was going to be fired, fire him after the playoffs. Waiting until August was bad management, pure and simple. It's as bad as what Isiah did as a manager with the Knicks, having Cheney coach the team through morning drills only to fire him in the afternoon amid swirling rumors that his job was toast.

                          I am extatic Rick is the coach, though the method that brought him here was crude and poor directed. We all have our opinions as to whether Isiah was a good coach or not, but the fact of the matter is Bird fired him because he expected Indy to do better. Enter Rick. Now, Indy is expected to do better, and if they don't, Bird was wrong.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Though it won't happen...

                            I have a hard time finding sympathy for someone who didn't learn a thing about tact from his own demise.
                            The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Though it won't happen...


                              I am extatic Rick is the coach, though the method that brought him here was crude and poor directed. We all have our opinions as to whether Isiah was a good coach or not, but the fact of the matter is Bird fired him because he expected Indy to do better. Enter Rick. Now, Indy is expected to do better, and if they don't, Bird was wrong.
                              But here is where some people see a difference: The definition of better

                              Is entering the playoffs with a better record... better road record... more consistency and playing a 'playoff style' of basketball an 'improvement'? Does that rise to the level where management, fans, even players feel the team has a better CHANCE of winning in the playoffs? I'd argue that IS 'doing better'. ...Assuming much of those things do in fact hold true by the end of the year (which is looking more and more like they will).

                              Here it comes... Has Carlisle increased the potential for this team to improve in the playoffs? Of course eventually they'll need to get over the hump but I'd argue this one lone year won't be make or break based on everything else.

                              -Bball
                              Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                              ------

                              "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                              -John Wooden

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X