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  1. #1
    NewYawk
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    Default Though it won't happen...

    ...if the Pacers were to lose in the first round of the playoffs, Rick Carlisle should be fired on the spot. He was hired SOLELY to do what Isiah Thomas supposedly couldn't-- get Indy deeper into the playoffs. I'm reading a lot of nervous posts about the Cavs (what?!) and the Pistons. People, please. The Pacers will not lose to these teams.

    HOWEVER, if they did, Carlisle should go, and Bird with him. I, personally, have a zero tolerance level with these guys. They were supposed to be the saviors that could come in here and get Indy over the hump. Many of you that are wringing your hands, worrying, were the ame people that called for Isiah's head the SECOND the clock hit ZERO after he coached his first PRESEASON GAME. And when he was fired and Rick hired , you all jumped up and down for joy. Now, it's Rick's turn to show WHY he was brought here, and I fully expect you who bashed Thomas to have the same zero tolerance for Rick, because anything less is hypocricy.

    I fully expect Rick's team to floor anybody they face in the playoffs. He is a better coach than Isiah, who was in his own right a good coach. Just ask Rick, or Reggie, or Jermaine, or anyone else in the Pacer org not named Larry Bird. however, if he doesn't get indy to the next level, that simply proves that making a coaching change was a mistake. IMO, Rick will coach Indy to the next level. I am supremely confident. My question for all the anti-Thomas/pro-Rick crowd is this: why aren't you?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    NewYawk, I'm glad you're posting here, but I think you're trolling a bit.

    At this point, losing in the first round is not an option, so I don't see any value in discussing what will not be allowed to happen by our current band of warriors.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Even if we somehow did lose (highly unlikely), Rick is still a much better coach than Isiah, so you still keep him for the next year.

  4. #4
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    NewYawk, I'm glad you're posting here, but I think you're trolling a bit.

    At this point, losing in the first round is not an option, so I don't see any value in discussing what will not be allowed to happen by our current band of warriors.
    No, I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything like that. I just see a lot of worry warts talking about the friggin Cavs as if they pose some sort of threat. These same worriers used to bash Thomas senseless, and still do, for holding Indy back from beating these teams. I've stated over and over again that I love Carlisle's coaching and am very happy he's the Pacer's HC. HOWEVER, if he proves no different than Thomas in the playoff win column, Thomas shouldn't have been fired. Simple as that, IMHO. I agree, it won't happen. I'd just like to see a little more confidence from Pacer "fans" in their team. Worrying about the friggin Cavs suggests "fans" are not confident in Carlisle, and if they aren't confident in Carlisle to beat a bunch of wannabe playoff contenders, why was Carlisle hired?

  5. #5
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    If in 3 years we are still not making progress then it will be time to
    fire him. By progess I mean at least to the finals.

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  6. #6
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    If in 3 years we are still not making progress then it will be time to
    fire him. By progess I mean at least to the finals.

    owl

    Owl, I see this is your second post, must have missed your first post, welcome, post more often.


    if the pacers lose in the first round in 4 straight games, by over 20 points per game, Carlisle should not be fired. Of course if the world ended tomorrow no one will care.

  7. #7
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I am supremely confident.
    I was supremely confident in 1999 that we'd win a championship with that team. I was cursing the lockout because I feared our "window" would close without a single game being played. Of course, that team didn't win, and to blame that collapse entirely on one blown four-point-play call from Jess Kersey demonstrates basketball blindness. That team, and the 2000 team, just weren't good enough to be champions.

    I'd just like to see a little more confidence from Pacer "fans" in their team.
    Since I was heartbroken by those teams, I'll keep worrying about whether the current Pacers are good enough until they David Stern hands us throphy and doesn't have his fingers crossed.

    Worrying about the friggin Cavs suggests "fans" are not confident in Carlisle, and if they aren't confident in Carlisle to beat a bunch of wannabe playoff contenders, why was Carlisle hired?
    My question for all the anti-Thomas/pro-Rick crowd is this: why aren't you [supremely confident]?
    Oh, you're not actually talking to me, because I wanted The Idiot fired earlier in the summer when JVG was still available.

    and I fully expect you who bashed Thomas to have the same zero tolerance for Rick, because anything less is hypocricy.
    Now hold on a minute. Prior to this season, I generally made the argument that coaching was overrated in the NBA - its a player's game. But for this team, coaching is paramount.

    Some of the "leading pessimists" (and long-time Pacers fans), myself included, had this conversation last week:

    What are the Pacers' Strengths?

    I will add that Brad Millerrrrrrrrrr ...no wait.... that wasn't what I was going to say. I got sidetracked

    Seriously, what I want to add is how well Carlisle manages the games. Besides his use of TO's he is consistent with his bench. You can argue that might make a game here or there harder to win... or arguable why we lost it. OTOH, IMHO this consistency is for the long haul and long term health of the team. Every game is not a playoff game. Throwing the kitchen sink at a meaningless midseason game hoping to pull out one lone win is sacrficing the longer term goals.

    I think it is far better the players know their roles and what is expected. If they got torched in a game it is something they and the coaching staff can learn from and adjust accordingly WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of the long term plans.

    Isiah IMO tried to turn every game into a chess match. Many times he outguessed himself. I'm sure he also planted seeds of doubt in players' minds. Did Isiah ever really try to make the other team adjust to what the Pacers' were doing or did he always seem to be countering their moves?

    -Bball
    I knew Isiah was awful and everything, but I've got two more points:

    (1) Last summer, even though I thought he had clearly earned the title "Worst Coach in Pacers history", I didn't realize just how horrible he was, because:

    (2) Rick has had great success by doing the exact opposite of everything Isiah did. "The Quick" vs. a structured offense. True man-to-man defense with no "help" structure vs. team defense. Stream of consciousness substitutions vs. fairly set rotations. Makes excuses for the team vs. requires discipline from the players. The "chess match" as bball called it vs. forcing opponents adjust to our gameplan. Tries to make every player a "complete" player vs. defining each player's role. Etc.

    Its almost like every time Rick has to make a decision, he thinks to himself "What would Isiah do?" Then he picks the exact opposite and it works.
    I don't have much to add to these two posts, except to say they are both brilliant.

    Rick should be ashamed for making Isiah look bad because he truly has.
    So if you had done your homework you'd find that many of the worries and pessimism have nothing to do with coaching.

    Personally, I'm worried about whether we're big enough in the post to deal with the Detroits/NOs of the world. I'm worried about our lack of playoff experience. I'm worried about our streaky perimeter shooting. I'm worried about our team's overall health. I'm worried about the mental toughness of certain players that have appeared more "on edge" lately.

    And these are all legitimate things to be worried about.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I am very confident that the Pacers will beat whomever they play in the first second and third rounds of the playoffs. I expect us to reach the finals THIS YEAR

    But to say that we can not talk about teams that we see as a coming team is ridiculous. The Cavs have done a great job of putting their team together. Most people seem to only see LeBron but Boozer was a great pick for them.

    The Bucks took us to 5 games in 00 but I knew we would win but I was still thinking of them as a potential future team to be reckoned with. (Of course when Worst was jacking up bricks I was getting a little nervous)

  9. #9
    NamShub
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    [quote="NewYawk"]
    HOWEVER, if he proves no different than Thomas in the playoff win column, Thomas shouldn't have been fired. Simple as that, IMHO.
    The logic of this statement seems a little iffy to me. The worst Carlisle can do is match Thomas's performance in the playoffs (lose in 1st round). If that happens, the worst you could possibly argue for Carlisle is that he's the same as Thomas....not good enough. If you're going by playoffs = everything. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have fired Thomas. Maybe you should have hired someone else (presumably better than either of them). But I don't follow how Carlisle failing to the same degree as Thomas means Thomas should have been kept. Non sequitur. You could argue Carlisle shouldn't have been hired, maybe, but that's all.

    All of this, of course, ignores any changes in the team due to trades, signings, injuries/recoveries, experience, personal tragedies/issues last year, etc, etc.

  10. #10
    PacerStud
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    It sounds like New Yawk just doesn't like that Isiah was fired and Carlisle brought in. I think that explains a lot.

    Carlisle is better than Isiah could ever think about being. He thinks. Isiah just thought he did. If we go out in the 1st this year, it won't be due to coaching - which was the case the last 3 years.

  11. #11
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Isiah was not a good coach. It should be painfully obvious how bad he was for this team byt this point.

    He had 3 years to get out of the first round. For a couple of years we were just hoping to MAKE the playoffs and in his last season we were wondering how far back we'd fall in the playoff seeding. All the teams he fielded were wildly inconsistent.

    So to look at what Carlisle has done, with IMHO less, and want his head if he'd happen not to get out of the first round THIS year is pressing things. If we did lose we'd need to see WHY we lost... and the odds are it would be a Pacer weakness got exploited. If anyone is to blame for that it would be management for not closing that hole.... And that is assuming that there is a loss. That is something that coaching has avoided in nearly 50 games this season.

    Carlisle has shown he can get a team to the ECF's. He has shown can coach a team to 50 wins.. and do it again... and probably again....
    What did Isiah show in 3 years time?

    If the team would falter in the playoffs I find it hard to believe it will be a coaching issue. It will be a player/matchup issue. We then need to look to management to 'improve' us on paper to (attempt to) 'fix' that weakness.

    Giving Rick Carlisle ONE lone year, and looking at the year we've had, is being rather short-sighted IMHO.

    -Bball
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  12. #12
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Why does everyone always say we underachieved the last 3 years? Last year, of course we did, but am I the only one who remembers the teams we had before that.

    Three years ago we had Austin at the 3, then an over-the-hill Derrick McKey, then a not-ready-for-primetime Al Harrington. We had Zan Tabak, Terry Mills, and a way-over-the-hill Sam Perkins at center. And we had prima-donna Jalen Rose running the point. Personnel wise, I think that was the worst team we've had in 15 years, and we still made the playoffs and played Philly pretty damn tight.

    Two years ago we had a rookie at point, a not-ready-for-primetime Foster at center, and a pouting prima-donna Jalen Rose causing all kinds of problems. We lost our sixth man halfway through, then we trade for a new starting 3 and 5, and backup 1 and 2, go on a must-win streak to make the playoffs, and play the closest 1-8 series ever.

    Yeah, last year we blew it, for a lot of reasons. But don't act like we had an All-Star cast those first two years.
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  13. #13
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    It sounds like New Yawk just doesn't like that Isiah was fired and Carlisle brought in. I think that explains a lot.
    Okay, EVERYBODY else here had an interesting POV on this subject, EXCEPT YOU. Please find in my posts where I said, or even INDICATED, that I was upset that Isiah was fired and Rick brought in. I was unhappy in the way Isiah was treated. If he was going to be fired, fire him after the playoffs. Waiting until August was bad management, pure and simple. It's as bad as what Isiah did as a manager with the Knicks, having Cheney coach the team through morning drills only to fire him in the afternoon amid swirling rumors that his job was toast.

    I am extatic Rick is the coach, though the method that brought him here was crude and poor directed. We all have our opinions as to whether Isiah was a good coach or not, but the fact of the matter is Bird fired him because he expected Indy to do better. Enter Rick. Now, Indy is expected to do better, and if they don't, Bird was wrong.

  14. #14
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    I have a hard time finding sympathy for someone who didn't learn a thing about tact from his own demise.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  15. #15
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    I am extatic Rick is the coach, though the method that brought him here was crude and poor directed. We all have our opinions as to whether Isiah was a good coach or not, but the fact of the matter is Bird fired him because he expected Indy to do better. Enter Rick. Now, Indy is expected to do better, and if they don't, Bird was wrong.
    But here is where some people see a difference: The definition of better

    Is entering the playoffs with a better record... better road record... more consistency and playing a 'playoff style' of basketball an 'improvement'? Does that rise to the level where management, fans, even players feel the team has a better CHANCE of winning in the playoffs? I'd argue that IS 'doing better'. ...Assuming much of those things do in fact hold true by the end of the year (which is looking more and more like they will).

    Here it comes... Has Carlisle increased the potential for this team to improve in the playoffs? Of course eventually they'll need to get over the hump but I'd argue this one lone year won't be make or break based on everything else.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    It sounds like New Yawk just doesn't like that Isiah was fired and Carlisle brought in. I think that explains a lot.
    Okay, EVERYBODY else here had an interesting POV on this subject, EXCEPT YOU. Please find in my posts where I said, or even INDICATED, that I was upset that Isiah was fired and Rick brought in. I was unhappy in the way Isiah was treated. If he was going to be fired, fire him after the playoffs. Waiting until August was bad management, pure and simple. It's as bad as what Isiah did as a manager with the Knicks, having Cheney coach the team through morning drills only to fire him in the afternoon amid swirling rumors that his job was toast.

    I am extatic Rick is the coach, though the method that brought him here was crude and poor directed. We all have our opinions as to whether Isiah was a good coach or not, but the fact of the matter is Bird fired him because he expected Indy to do better. Enter Rick. Now, Indy is expected to do better, and if they don't, Bird was wrong.
    Easy NY. I understand the point you were making in you're initial post - you, like many of us are sick of all the negativity around here. Just be careful not to add to it.

    To the point of the thread - a healthy concern about the potential opponent is good. The Pacers are not going to just sweep their way to a championship. A totally negative outlook is bad - I still have a good laugh when I think about the thread talking about how EVERY single Piston's player was better than EVERY single Pacer's player because Raweed was now a Piston.

    I personally think the Cavaliers would/will give us some problems and would/will probably win a couple of games, but over 7 games the Pacers will win. Couple that with the fact the new face of the NBA plays for them and the conspiracy theories will fly. We may even see the 1st 5 point play to win the series! Miami scares me a little less.

    Whomever the opponent if the Pacers lose, and they look horrible doing it, then Carlisle would need to be on a short leash next year.
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  17. #17
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    I am extatic Rick is the coach, though the method that brought him here was crude and poor directed. We all have our opinions as to whether Isiah was a good coach or not, but the fact of the matter is Bird fired him because he expected Indy to do better. Enter Rick. Now, Indy is expected to do better, and if they don't, Bird was wrong.
    But here is where some people see a difference: The definition of better

    Is entering the playoffs with a better record... better road record... more consistency and playing a 'playoff style' of basketball an 'improvement'? Does that rise to the level where management, fans, even players feel the team has a better CHANCE of winning in the playoffs? I'd argue that IS 'doing better'. ...Assuming much of those things do in fact hold true by the end of the year (which is looking more and more like they will).

    Here it comes... Has Carlisle increased the potential for this team to improve in the playoffs? Of course eventually they'll need to get over the hump but I'd argue this one lone year won't be make or break based on everything else.

    -Bball
    All of the potential, the increased regular season wins, the potential division title; they mean nothing without at least a first round win. and if they lose despite all the other accomplishments Carlisle has won this year, that would only strengthen the notion that he must go. To win all that they've won only to lose AGAIN in the first round?

    Forget it. Bye Rick. Bye Larry. That kind of thing is unforgivable.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...


    All of the potential, the increased regular season wins, the potential division title; they mean nothing without at least a first round win. and if they lose despite all the other accomplishments Carlisle has won this year, that would only strengthen the notion that he must go. To win all that they've won only to lose AGAIN in the first round?

    Forget it. Bye Rick. Bye Larry. That kind of thing is unforgivable.
    The Pacers are probably going to win 60 games. That in itself is a great accomplishment, many franchises in the NBA have never had a 60 win season. Also this is a guess but I'm pretty sure there has never been a coach fired after a 60+ win season; it just doesn't happen. And very rarely does a 60 win team get bounced in the 1st round, it happened in 1994 with Seattle who had 63 wins and was beaten by Denver but of course they didn't fire Karl and they went to the Finals 2 years later and gave the Bulls all they could handle. Even if the Pacers were to lose in the 1st round to fire Carlisle would be downright foolish and it won't happen.

    As a fan you should always be nervous about a playoff opponent. You can easily make the argument that Cleveland has 3 starters who are all-stars; Z has been one and Boozer and Lebron will both be all-stars in the future so its legit to worry about that kind of team.Should the Pacers win that type of series? Of course, but if they were to get upset in 7 games or something it would be really ridiculous to say Carlisle should get fired after doing such a great coaching job all season.

  19. #19
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    All of the potential, the increased regular season wins, the potential division title; they mean nothing without at least a first round win. and if they lose despite all the other accomplishments Carlisle has won this year, that would only strengthen the notion that he must go. To win all that they've won only to lose AGAIN in the first round?

    Forget it. Bye Rick. Bye Larry. That kind of thing is unforgivable.
    If the Pacers were to operate that way then shouldn't Isiah have been fired after his first season? Afterall, the Pacers were runnerups to the Lakers in the NBA Finals. Barely making the playoffs had to be the biggest letdown in history. We had Reggie, Jalen, JO, Best, McKey, Harrington, Smooth, etc... and on a roll from the season before. We lost Rik Smits but then he was scared of Shaq anyway. Dale Davis for JO? I was told that was a major upgrade. We finally had a player who could 'throw it down'. Jax? He was old and slow so surely losing him only helped us.

    <sarcasm off>

    Heh... I'm arguing for giving Carlisle at least another year should these Pacers hypothetically flameout in this year's playoffs! ....Even tho I think the odds of getting out of the first round are WORLDS better this season BECAUSE of Rick Carlisle.

    Anyway... You could also look at this another way. Particularly if you think Thomas should not have been fired. If the Pacers were to lose AGAIN in the first round perhaps we should set our sights on a different target as to why? Management? Players?

    By the way... I'd be more inclined to buy your argument next year.... or if the team wasn't SO much better than under Thomas already.


    -Bball
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  20. #20
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    If we lose in the first round, it will be because our best players were injured because we focused on winning regular-season games rather than resting our best and most important players.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    No way would Carlisle be fired, even if God forbid we got swept.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  22. #22
    PacerStud
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Okay, EVERYBODY else here had an interesting POV on this subject, EXCEPT YOU.
    Relax. In your initial post you said "Many of you that are wringing your hands, worrying, were the ame people that called for Isiah's head the SECOND the clock hit ZERO after he coached his first PRESEASON GAME", and you said "And when he was fired and Rick hired , you all jumped up and down for joy" and you said "He is a better coach than Isiah, who was in his own right a good coach." and you said " I, personally, have a zero tolerance level with these guys."

    That just shows your extreme support of Isiah and your extreme displeasure with Bird and Carlisle. The line you draw is very well defined. You tell me why.

    You're calling for his head prematurely and then say you're supportive. You can't have it both ways. Make up your mind.

  23. #23
    Member BigMac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Two points I would like to make:

    1. With all this winning, it had been pretty boring around here. Sure I don't want a lot of detractors posting but New Yawk postings have given this board some needed life-though I reitterate that I don't want a lot of trolls posting-not the New Yawk is a troll.

    2. What do I get out of New Yawk's original post? That he's upset with Isiah being fired by Indiana last summer because his team is now stuck with him and he's made their cap situation worse to put together a team that isn't even a .500 team but may make the playoffs. If he liked Isiah he would be more positive about having Isiah and less negative about the Pacers firing him.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    If we lose every single game for the rest of the season and then lose in the 1st round, Carlisle should be fired.

    That would be as bad as the 2nd half AND playoff collapse that occured last year.

    Isiah wasn't JUST responsible for the playoff loss. The playoff loss was completely unsurprising given how the team totally unraveled on him late in the year.
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  25. #25
    NewYawk
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    Default Re: Though it won't happen...

    Okay, EVERYBODY else here had an interesting POV on this subject, EXCEPT YOU.
    Relax. In your initial post you said "Many of you that are wringing your hands, worrying, were the ame people that called for Isiah's head the SECOND the clock hit ZERO after he coached his first PRESEASON GAME", and you said "And when he was fired and Rick hired , you all jumped up and down for joy" and you said "He is a better coach than Isiah, who was in his own right a good coach." and you said " I, personally, have a zero tolerance level with these guys."

    That just shows your extreme support of Isiah and your extreme displeasure with Bird and Carlisle. The line you draw is very well defined. You tell me why.

    You're calling for his head prematurely and then say you're supportive. You can't have it both ways. Make up your mind.
    I'm not geting in a pissing contest with you. There is NOTHING in my intitial post that says I had "extreme" support for Isiah and "extreme" displeasure for Bird and Carlisle. That's just assinine. I liked Isiah as coach. He was very good at developing young players. The team responded to him and resepcted him, and it improved each year he was coach. For his own reasons, Bird (newly hired) felt he'd have a better relationship with Carlisle than Isiah, so Zeke got the boot.

    That is NOT good business. My opinion. If Isiah was so obviously bad at coaching the team, he should have been fired immediately after the playoffs. That way, a new coach gets hired, and Isiah has an opportunity to coach somewhere else. Most likely, he'd have been in Philly and would have done a much better job coaching than Randy friggin Ayres or Chris Ford. My point is I don't like how it was handled. It was a rare spat of unprofessionalism on the part of a very classy organization... and it just so happened to coinside with Bird taking over as president.

    Bird felt Carlsile could get Indy to the next level. If Carlisle doesn't (ie, out in the first round, losing to a team like Cleveland), both he and Bird should go, because to fire a good coach like Isiah and see ZERO improvement is a big miscalculation. Again, I have total faith in Carlisle. This team will crush whoever they play. However, if they don't, the wraith of the fans on Bird and Carlisle should be merciless.

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