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Thread: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

  1. #51
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan
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    Here's a newsflash- unless you've somehow a direct line to God, you have no f'ing clue whether he'll ever pan out or not. It's your OPINION that he won't.
    Well, it is my opinion and it's based on the reality of the past 6 years. How many years does it take for this 'great untapped potential' to actually pan out?

    And it isn't like there is one hurdle for Bender to cross (of course God knows he'd injure himself leaping that hurdle!)... Injuries, questionable basketball IQ, glass body, questionable heart (yes, I question his heart), position on the team, defensive liabilities, limited basketball skillset (if he can't jump over you he is lost).... etc...

    It's pointless to keep pretending there's something there other than what we keep seeing over and over again... season after season... year after year....

    All my humble opinion...
    -Bball
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  2. #52
    Graywolf_59
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Get rid of (HMO) Bender......been in the league what?-5 yrs and only played in a season's worth of game's.....for his salary?The guy has alot of talent----but nothing worth what he's being paid......most of us would ride the pine for 1/8 of what this guy get's paid and Never need to be a HMO project!(IMHO) here......I like JB alot.....But we need bodies on the floor...not on the training table!

  3. #53

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by Graywolf_59
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    Get rid of (HMO) Bender......been in the league what?-5 yrs and only played in a season's worth of game's.....for his salary?The guy has alot of talent----but nothing worth what he's being paid......most of us would ride the pine for 1/8 of what this guy get's paid and Never need to be a HMO project!(IMHO) here......I like JB alot.....But we need bodies on the floor...not on the training table!

    Thank you!Thats what I've been trying to say!!! I have nothing personal agaisnt JB, I agree that he has potential. People keep talking about "Well if we get rid of Artest....", "Well if we get rid of JO....", "Hey if we don't need Tins..", why don't we just get rid of the dead weight, and I don't mean that in a malicious way. I'm just saying that if Jonathan can't perform for us, why keep him? If he's always hurt, how are we going to see that athleticism?
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

    Do Not Trade Austin

    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Brunner
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    Veteran Austin Croshere, the longest-tenured Pacers player on the roster, has proven reliable when called upon, invariably ready to step in regardless of the circumstance.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Has anyone grasped that we're not waiving Croshere OR Bender?

  5. #55

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    And it isn't like there is one hurdle for Bender to cross (of course God knows he'd injure himself leaping that hurdle!)...
    haha, that got me
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

    Do Not Trade Austin

    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Brunner
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    Veteran Austin Croshere, the longest-tenured Pacers player on the roster, has proven reliable when called upon, invariably ready to step in regardless of the circumstance.

  6. #56
    Member McClintic Sphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by 8.9_seconds
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    Thank you!Thats what I've been trying to say!!! I have nothing personal agaisnt JB, I agree that he has potential. People keep talking about "Well if we get rid of Artest....", "Well if we get rid of JO....", "Hey if we don't need Tins..", why don't we just get rid of the dead weight, and I don't mean that in a malicious way. I'm just saying that if Jonathan can't perform for us, why keep him? If he's always hurt, how are we going to see that athleticism?
    Okay, this is what I don't understand, the "why keep him" part of the argument. The only way JB has any trade value is if another team puts him through probably the most thorough battery of tests ever invented and finds that he is perfectly healthy. In which case we are accordingly going to get expiriing contracts in a trade which we are then going to parlay into what need to fill for our team? Another defensive stalwart? Well with SJAX, Artest back, JO and Harrison, not to mention Freddy and DD, we are pretty solid there. No, we need another scorer as was evidenced very much in the Pistons series. Thats what a healthy JB brings to the table.
    When are people going to get it through there heads that either JB is either going to get over his knee injuries in which case the Pacers are going to finally find out if he can be a consistent performer for them or we are essentially going to eat his contract?
    Has anyone ever considered that maybe this was a training issue with JB, as in a very wrong training program was instituted for him at a time when his body was still very much growing into itself? Or perhaps a misdiagnoses at a time when his injuries could have very much been diminished? Maybe that the shake up in our training staff has something to do with those very issues. I just don't see work ethic and desire being something Bird or Donnie would have overlooked when signing Bender to his most recent contract. The stupid cracks about Bender having a hang nail that kept him out or injuring himself getting out of bed are so tired, that I'm surprised people on this forum keep repeating them and even worse, others finding them funny. Thats RATS board b.s. that I come here to avoid.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintic Sphere
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    Okay, The stupid cracks about Bender having a hang nail that kept him out or injuring himself getting out of bed are so tired, that I'm surprised people on this forum keep repeating them and even worse, others finding them funny. Thats RATS board b.s. that I come here to avoid.
    I came here to avoid any contact with real people, I live in a bubble and anyway I can entertain myself is to laugh at tired jokes, forgive me for I have sinned.
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

    Do Not Trade Austin

    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Brunner
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    Veteran Austin Croshere, the longest-tenured Pacers player on the roster, has proven reliable when called upon, invariably ready to step in regardless of the circumstance.

  8. #58
    Member indytoad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie4Three
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    Has anyone grasped that we're not waiving Croshere OR Bender?
    Well, once the Bender ball starts rolling it's hard to get it slowed down. It's like a poor man's Ron Artest thread.

    IndyToad
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  9. #59
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintic Sphere
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    The stupid cracks about Bender having a hang nail that kept him out or injuring himself getting out of bed are so tired, that I'm surprised people on this forum keep repeating them and even worse, others finding them funny. Thats RATS board b.s. that I come here to avoid.
    True, but the only way there would be a perfect board out there is if just you and me were on it, and you would probably get bored with me after ten or twenty years. (grin)

    Seriously this board does veer off to a bunch of nonsense and one liners from time to time, still it's way better than the RATS board.

  10. #60
    Member McClintic Sphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    True, but the only way there would be a perfect board out there is if just you and me were on it, and you would probably get bored with me after ten or twenty years. (grin)

    Seriously this board does veer off to a bunch of nonsense and one liners from time to time, still it's way better than the RATS board.
    Well, I know I'm way overeacting to the whole thing, and this board is a trillion times better than the RATS board. I guess this whole Bender thing has been building with me for a while now due to the attitudes I see supposed Pacer's fan have toward his situation. In my view, it's either he's never going to amount to anything due to injuries, which I think would be sort of sad because of what the Pacer's have invested in him or he's going to get healthy and be very much a huge impact player for us. Where does anyone get evidence that Bender is: a)a wimp, B)is faking injuries, or c)a fiction of the Pacer's PR department? To me those are the only scenarios that makes him worthy of ridicule. If Bender ultimately fails, I see it much more as an indictment of the Pacer's organization in either their ability to scout talent, train talent and/or keep talent healthy. I have never seen even a rumor with any validity that JB has any kind of bad work ethic, low threshold for pain, or lack of desire to be a great player. That's why reading the 500th "Bender got injured doing fill in the blank non strenuous activity ha ha ha" post finally made me snap.
    I have to go camping in the deep woods now to cleanse myself of the anger.

  11. #61
    Member McClintic Sphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    I understand what you are saying, and as I have said in other threads I feel Benders pain.

    I ran year round in high school and had a bunch (I think 5) season ending injuries.

    I was looked down upon by my coach, team, etc..

    I can only imagine how much it would suck to be in that situation where the whole world is watching.

    But the bottom line is life isnt fair, and the whole world is watching.

    P.S. This boards kicks RATS butt any day of the week
    Yeah, I'm with ya on the whole life isn't fair thing, and don't get me wrong I'm not filled with pity for Jon Bender or anything, because he's set up for life financially. I just don't see where true Pacer's fans find any mirth in the situation. I too had a situation like what you revealed in High School. I had separated my shoulder severly and my doctor had told me I would have to have a pin put in and sit out the rest of the season or live with it popping out in games. I chose the latter and played diminished often times in excruciating pain and discovered my coach had been riciculing me on several occasions for my continuously wincing due to the pain. Some guys are just unlucky in that way.
    I guess I just really want to believe that Bender can still do great things for us.
    I also find these, "we can turn a player who has been injured for two years into Ray Allen or Michael Redd through a brief series of transactions" rather outlandish as well.

  12. #62

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by shags
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    But it's different though. Stack played real well for Dallas off the bench last season.

    I don't see why Jalen would be any different. He'd be perfect for the Pistons, and I definitely think he'd fit in. He's from Detroit, and grew up a Pistons fan. He'd be the #1 option off the bench (similar to Stack). And on the BDSSP last night, he said he'd rather have Robert Horry's career over Patrick Ewing's, Charles Barkley's, and Karl Malone's, because he wants the championships.

    Well, wouldn't it be his dream to come back to Detroit and have a great chance to win a title (and be a contributor) with his hometown team? Am I crazy? What do you think? I think his attitude would be fine.
    Shags, I hate to say it, but this reminds me of one of my favorite movie scenes.........

    Clark W. Griswald - "Oh her? Uhhh, she's a pool waitress...I was just getting you, your Mom, Audrey some... some fish"

    Rusty Griswald - "Did she take your order, Dad?"

    Clark W. Griswald - "Yeah, she took my order. She was a pool waitress. You understand, don't you, Russ?"

    Rusty Griswald - "Yeah, I know what you mean ....................................... you think Mom, will buy it?"

    Clark W. Griswald - "Good talk, son!"


  13. #63

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintic Sphere
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    Well, I know I'm way overeacting to the whole thing, and this board is a trillion times better than the RATS board. I guess this whole Bender thing has been building with me for a while now due to the attitudes I see supposed Pacer's fan have toward his situation. In my view, it's either he's never going to amount to anything due to injuries, which I think would be sort of sad because of what the Pacer's have invested in him or he's going to get healthy and be very much a huge impact player for us. Where does anyone get evidence that Bender is: a)a wimp, B)is faking injuries, or c)a fiction of the Pacer's PR department? To me those are the only scenarios that makes him worthy of ridicule. If Bender ultimately fails, I see it much more as an indictment of the Pacer's organization in either their ability to scout talent, train talent and/or keep talent healthy. I have never seen even a rumor with any validity that JB has any kind of bad work ethic, low threshold for pain, or lack of desire to be a great player. That's why reading the 500th "Bender got injured doing fill in the blank non strenuous activity ha ha ha" post finally made me snap.
    I have to go camping in the deep woods now to cleanse myself of the anger.
    i think you are forgetting something. if bender fails (and i believe he will) i don't look at it as some sort of failure on their part to keep bender healthy. he has to keep himself healthy. some people just have much more fragile bodies than others and NO trainer no matter how great can overcome someone with a weak body. you almost make it look like if bender fails- it had to be the pacers failure and not his. i don't question much about bender except his durability which i believe he does not have much of.

  14. #64
    Member McClintic Sphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by kingfrog
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    i think you are forgetting something. if bender fails (and i believe he will) i don't look at it as some sort of failure on their part to keep bender healthy. he has to keep himself healthy. some people just have much more fragile bodies than others and NO trainer no matter how great can overcome someone with a weak body. you almost make it look like if bender fails- it had to be the pacers failure and not his. i don't question much about bender except his durability which i believe he does not have much of.

    Well, and I admit what you predict may very well come true. He may end up being a complete bust. It's all complete speculation, but I am curious how much the Bender situation contributed to the turnover in the training staff. There was a lot of uncertainty on what they were going to do with Bender from late summer until almost a couple months left in the season.

  15. #65
    Edge of Reason GO!!!!!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Does anyone here have any idea what the hell goes on in the Pacer Franchise, I think not, no one here has any clue, there are all but two people on this forum that I believe have any insight because of there contacts to anyone that has any relevance and anyone that has any input that even talks to Larry Bird


    Croshere will not get waived, Bender will not get traded

    Bird knows what he is doing and to his credit he is loyal and he is committed to Bender and Croshere and I believe they talk almost daily and have the situation sorted, Bird will know and the players know that if they leave there carriers are all but over and I'm sure behind the scenes they are trading harder then ever and bender is having more physio then we can even bear to imagine to play, I am sure Bender hasnít given up on the Pacers and likewise Bird and Walsh are committed to him


    I mean facts are Facts, Bird drafted Croshere as his own so unless he slagged of Birdís daughter heís here to stay and will more then likely sign a contract extension soon. Below what he gets paid now but extension non-the less !!

  16. #66

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute
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    all these changes make the bender deal (reportedly dead, anyway) look less attractive. chiefly, the luxury tax relief provision will give us less reason to do a salary dump. it also will cut down on potential trade targets for the expiring contracts we would have gotten for bender.

    also, if bender still can't play this year, pacers would have grounds for declaring him "permanently injured" and possibly get him off the cap sometime during the 2006 season.

    lastly, there is little reason now to dump the 1st round pick, since it's only guaranteed for 2 years. better to pick up a young player to develop. the nbdl provision works in nicely as well.
    Excellent effort. Lots of good points.

  17. #67
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    Whats your point?

    Because we dont know anyone who works for the Pacers...
    Speak for yourself.
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  18. #68
    Edge of Reason GO!!!!!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    Whats your point?

    Because we dont know anyone who works for the Pacers (technically all of us do, most of us talk to Paul B ) we arent allowed to discuss them and have our own opinions?...............
    thats not my point at all, i'm just really stuggling to see why/how this even makes any remote sence, the Pacers are a business and I imagine Cro get's on well with the Boss, so why there is any reason for him to sacked is beyond me

  19. #69
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintic Sphere
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    He may end up being a complete bust.
    Is 6 years not enough to declare that? What about 7? 8 years? When can we declare him a bust? What does it take? How long?

    Is it simply a matter of as long as he is a Pacer there is always hope so you won't count him out? If that is the case then that is EXACTLY my point (at least one of them). As long as Bender is a Pacer the front office has to in some way consider Bender in their planning. Our future moves (or non-moves) will in some way include scenarios with Bender involved. The team just can't move on until his situation is resolved one way or another. And since he's been on the team doing nothing since 99-2000 I think it is obvious what that resolution needs to be.



    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  20. #70
    Member McClintic Sphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Is 6 years not enough to declare that? What about 7? 8 years? When can we declare him a bust? What does it take? How long?

    Is it simply a matter of as long as he is a Pacer there is always hope so you won't count him out? If that is the case then that is EXACTLY my point (at least one of them). As long as Bender is a Pacer the front office has to in some way consider Bender in their planning. Our future moves (or non-moves) will in some way include scenarios with Bender involved. The team just can't move on until his situation is resolved one way or another. And since he's been on the team doing nothing since 99-2000 I think it is obvious what that resolution needs to be.



    -Bball
    Yeah, they have to consider him in their planning. But what are they going to get for him in a trade? About like that Devean George, Slave Medvedenko b.s? No. Gracias. And again that crap only if he's deemed completely healthy by the team to whom we trade him. To me that's just idiotic. I understand why some fans have given up on Bender, I just feel continuing to roll the dice that he'll pan out, is way better than that LA crapola we've been supposedly offerred.

  21. #71

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    If they wanted to do it right. Why dont they let the team waive the player recieving cap relief. Let any other team claim him for a minimum of 33% of the salary he still has coming. (Ex: Croshere making 9M next year could be claimed off waivers for 3M with the Pacers responsible for the other 6M) If more then 1 team wanted to claim him let them have a bidding war for 72 hours with the one offering the highest bid winning the player. Example: Team A offers 36% Team B offers 40%= Team B wins and the Pacers would be responsible for the remaining 60% for the last 2 years. This way the team that waves the player could also recieve salary relief along with cap relief. If he's not claimed in 72hours he could join any team for veterans minimum with the team responsible for the remainder
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  22. #72

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Ok, here's a very simple difference between Bender and Croshere.

    In trading Bender, we receive expiring contracts, because Bender has positive value.

    In trading Croshere, we have to package him with young stars or expiring contracts, because Croshere has negative value.

    If we're looking to waive one of them, wouldn't we waive the guy with NEGATIVE trade value? Oh, and don't give me this crap about Austin at least being ready to play. This season, with JO, Jeff, Harrison, and most likely Dale and Pollard, any scenario where Austin Croshere has to make a signifigant contribution is a scenario in which we suck. Besides, if we still needed to get under the luxury tax, Bender is far more suitable for the permanently injured waive than Croshere. Why waste this one-time waive on Bender when you can probably get him next year if you need to

  23. #73
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Wouldn't it make more sense for the Pacers to waive Reggie. They plan on paying him, and he's not going to play anyway. Their is a chance Bender might lay and Cro will play. The pacers will get almost as much luxury cap relief waiving Reggie

  24. #74

    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Wouldn't it make more sense for the Pacers to waive Reggie. They plan on paying him, and he's not going to play anyway. Their is a chance Bender might lay and Cro will play. The pacers will get almost as much luxury cap relief waiving Reggie
    True. That is if the Pacers are seeking luxury cap relief. I kinda get the feeling that if the Pacers do well next year that Reggie MIGHT be on the postseason roster even if he is not playing. Then again, maybe not. Just imagine if you are the guy left of the roster for a guy who retired already.

  25. #75
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    Default Re: Pacers may waive Croshere this summer

    I've herad a rumor that it's more than just luxury cap relief, but the salary actually comes off the books entirely.

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