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Thread: I have a question . . .

  1. #1
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default I have a question . . .

    If you can't hit your free throws can you be considered clutch?

  2. #2
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Only if you're a big man.

  3. #3
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    I say yes.

    Now it will hurt your team sometimes, but thats why you have teammates.

    In other words, 10 times out of 10, I will use Timmy D as my number one option if he is on my team.
    Again, only if you're a big man like Duncan or Shaq...but Duncan needs to make those, he choked. He missed tooooo many.

  4. #4
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    I agree he choked tonight.

    I actually would never go to Shaq at the end of the game, I would always use him as a decoy....

    Well, Shaq does have 3 rings so I respectfully disagree.

    Shaq actually usually makes his f.t.s in clutch time.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    Well, Shaq does have 3 rings so I respectfully disagree.

    Shaq actually usually makes his f.t.s in clutch time.
    Shaq was never the #1 option for his team at the end of the game on those Laker teams, and on this Heat team. Kobe & Wade were. That's why Shaq could have never won any titles without them.

  6. #6
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by shags
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    Shaq was never the #1 option for his team at the end of the game on those Laker teams, and on this Heat team. Kobe & Wade were. That's why Shaq could have never won any titles without them.

    Wrong again. Shaq has been the most dominant player in the last 20 years. Kobe could have never won the title without Shaq, not the other way around.

    Shaq is not replacable, Kobe could have very easily been replaced with a Tracy McGrady or Paul Pierce type of players who are "Scorers" and the Lakers would still have won a title or two. Maybe not all 3.

  7. #7
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    Wrong again. Shaq has been the most dominant player in the last 20 years. Kobe could have never won the title without Shaq, not the other way around.

    Shaq is not replacable, Kobe could have very easily been replaced with a Tracy McGrady or Paul Pierce type of players who are "Scorers" and the Lakers would still have won a title or two. Maybe not all 3.
    I beg to differ, his airness managed to dominate a league ruled by big men, and I'm pretty sure there weren't any Jordan stoppers back in the day. Hack-a-Jordan got sharted on.

    Oh and by the way, Shaq hasn't even been the most dominant center of the past 20 years. Not only was Hakeem "The Dream" Olujawon better, he basically embarressed Shaq and the rest of the big man crop (Ewing, Mourning, Robinson, etc) throughout the course of his prime. Hakeem was a taller, smarter, and more creative version of Tim Duncan with better range, defense and more hops. I offer my condolences to those who had to guard him...

  8. #8
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    I beg to differ, his airness managed to dominate a league ruled by big men, and I'm pretty sure there weren't any Jordan stoppers back in the day.

    Oh and by the way, Shaq hasn't even been the most dominant center of the past 20 years. Not only was Hakeem "The Dream" Olujawon better, he basically embarressed Shaq and the rest of the big man crop (Ewing, Mourning, Robinson, etc) throughout the course of his prime. Hakeem was a taller, smarter, and more creative version of Tim Duncan with better range, defense and more hops. I offer my condolences to those who had to guard him...
    Michael, is that you?

    I'm joking my friend but you just popped up with your MJ stuff. It's good to show love for Michael.

    If Ron Artest of today was playing in Jordan days, I think PAcers would have beaten the Jordan Bulls. Ron is such an amazing defender, he prob. would have had success with Jordan. Didn't Ron break his ribs or something?

    Hakeem was more dominant than the young Shaq when he was on the Magic but overall, Shaq has been the most dominant center the last 20 years. Hakeem did not have longevity and a prime Shaq and a prime Hakeem would have been an amazing matchup. I wish that 1 on 1 they were supposed to have would have went down. Anyone know why it didn't?

  9. #9
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Forgot to add,
    Shaq wins no titles without Kobe. Kobe, when he isn't sexually assaulting women, is the league's best 2 guard, a rare mix of great offensive talent, athleticism, and defensive prowess. The McGrady of the the Lakers 3 peat would have probably been as adequate offensively as Bryant, but defensively... there would've been a drop off.

    Iverson... great offensive talent, but he takes more shots, he's undersized, and I'm not sure he would've been as good a fit as Kobe.

    Pierce? The only thing the duo of Shaq and PP would've accomplished in L.A was back to back winner and runner up finishes at pie eating contests. Can you say overrated? It starts with a Pierc and ends with an e.

  10. #10
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    Forgot to add,
    Shaq wins no titles without Kobe. Kobe, when he isn't sexually assaulting women, is the league's best 2 guard, a rare mix of great offensive talent, athleticism, and defensive prowess. The McGrady of the the Lakers 3 peat would have probably been as adequate offensively as Bryant, but defensively... there would've been a drop off.

    Iverson... great offensive talent, but he takes more shots, he's undersized, and I'm not sure he would've been as good a fit as Kobe.

    Pierce? The only thing the duo of Shaq and PP would've accomplished in L.A was back to back winner and runner up finishes at pie eating contests. Can you say overrated? It starts with a Pierc and ends with an e.
    I think this season has shown the dominant player Shaq is and Kobe is one of the league's best 2 guard but he is no Jordan. Kobe is not even the best 2 guard in the NBA. McGrady is a better player than Kobe in my opinion and McGrady and Shaq would have also equated in three titles. Pierce and Shaq would have probably resulted in 1-2 titles.

    Bottomline, Shaq is not replacable but Kobe is.

  11. #11
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    Michael, is that you?

    I'm joking my friend but you just popped up with your MJ stuff. It's good to show love for Michael.

    If Ron Artest of today was playing in Jordan days, I think PAcers would have beaten the Jordan Bulls. Ron is such an amazing defender, he prob. would have had success with Jordan. Didn't Ron break his ribs or something?

    Hakeem was more dominant than the young Shaq when he was on the Magic but overall, Shaq has been the most dominant center the last 20 years. Hakeem did not have longevity and a prime Shaq and a prime Hakeem would have been an amazing matchup. I wish that 1 on 1 they were supposed to have would have went down. Anyone know why it didn't?
    Playing the "what if?" game isn't my style. Congratulations to Ron Artest for breaking Michael Jordan's ribs in a pickup game in 2001, Jordan was 38.

    Hakeem Olajuwon didn't have the longevity? 84-85 to 96-97 were all all star calibur years. I'll take Hakeem, still.

  12. #12
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    Playing the "what if?" game isn't my style. Congratulations to Ron Artest for breaking Michael Jordan's ribs in a pickup game in 2001, Jordan was 38.

    Hakeem Olajuwon didn't have the longevity? 84-85 to 96-97 were all all star calibur years. I'll take Hakeem, still.
    I'd take Shaq and a note, Iverson is an amazing player and has lead his team to the NBA Finals by himself. Something Kobe has not.

    One last thing, is your notion of Shaq not being the most dominant player because of people comparing the dominance of Shaq and Jordan?

    Also, when Jordan played, defense was not as good as it is today. The emphasis of defense is more today.

  13. #13
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    One more thing, clearly Jordan is one of the best players if not the best of all-time but I think comparing Shaq in the same class is legitimate because Jordan was the most talented and dominant 2 guard while Shaq was the most dominant big man in the league. Larry Bird is also right there.

  14. #14
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    I think this season has shown the dominant player Shaq is and Kobe is one of the league's best 2 guard but he is no Jordan. Kobe is not even the best 2 guard in the NBA. McGrady is a better player than Kobe in my opinion and McGrady and Shaq would have also equated in three titles. Pierce and Shaq would have probably resulted in 1-2 titles.

    Bottomline, Shaq is not replacable but Kobe is.
    Don't confuse yourself, while I am no blind Kobe supporter, I think it's unfair for someone to judge a player when he plays most of the season seriously injured and misses 16 games with injury, then watches his coach quit mid season, and then on top of that, has his best teammate, Odom, also miss 18 games of the season with injury.

    McGrady has shown flashes of brilliance, and while this is not a runaway in terms of talent, I'll still take Bryant. McGrady needs to continue to show me his consistancy and growth as a player, and if he continues to play at the level he played in this post season, I will definately change my view on things.

    Shaq doesn't make these 2guards, people should take a step back and realize, he's just lucky to the point that he's always on a team that has one around him.

  15. #15
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Shaq does make those 2-guards. Where was Dwayne Wade last year? He was home after the Pacers eliminated them and he wasn't scoring 30 pts/game. Shaq makes players around him, better. Look at least season with the Lakers role players and look at this season with players like Butler and Jones for the Heat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    Don't confuse yourself, while I am no blind Kobe supporter, I think it's unfair for someone to judge a player when he plays most of the season seriously injured and misses 16 games with injury, then watches his coach quit mid season, and then on top of that, has his best teammate, Odom, also miss 18 games of the season with injury.
    You should tell people on here to stop judging Jermaine O'Neal then. He played with one arm during the playoffs and was a warrior. Kobe's injury was minute compared to J.O.

  16. #16
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    I'd take Shaq and a note, Iverson is an amazing player and has lead his team to the NBA Finals by himself. Something Kobe has not.

    One last thing, is your notion of Shaq not being the most dominant player because of people comparing the dominance of Shaq and Jordan?

    Also, when Jordan played, defense was not as good as it is today. The emphasis of defense is more today.
    Winning in the east in 2001 and in today's game is much easier than winning in the west. Fact.

    No, I do think Shaq was/is dominant, top 4 or 5 in terms of dominance in the past 20 years or so, if you want me to judge by the period of time you set.

    You've got to be kidding about the defense reference you've just made.

  17. #17
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    Winning in the east in 2001 and in today's game is much easier than winning in the west. Fact.

    No, I do think Shaq was/is dominant, top 4 or 5 in terms of dominance in the past 20 years or so, if you want me to judge by the period of time you set.

    You've got to be kidding about the defense reference you've just made.
    Big playoff games are won with defense today. In the past, games were won on offense. Why would I be kidding?

  18. #18
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    Shaq does make those 2-guards. Where was Dwayne Wade last year? He was home after the Pacers eliminated them and he wasn't scoring 30 pts/game. Shaq makes players around him, better. Look at least season with the Lakers role players and look at this season with players like Butler and Jones for the Heat.




    You should tell people on here to stop judging Jermaine O'Neal then. He played with one arm during the playoffs and was a warrior. Kobe's injury was minute compared to J.O.
    Dwyane Wade was a rookie guard, who was injured throughout most of his rookie season, who almost led his young Miami Heat squad past the powerhouse Pacers. Since when is a rookie not allowed to improve his game in the following season? Dwyane Wade made himself, and for the most part this season, he led the Heat. And while Shaq, injured and all, coasted through the first round, Wade led his team to a clean sweep. And while Shaq coasted the first 2 games against the Wizards and then missed the next 2, Wade led his team, to yet another sweep. Things looked clear for Miami when Shaq was dominating first quarters and the bulk of the second quarters against the Pistons and then dissappearing late in games. They needed wade. Near back to back 40 game performances gave them that. Then Wade got injured, and a blowout in game 6 and the eventual loss in game 7 was all due in part to Wade's injury.

    Shaq didn't make Wade. Again, Wade made himself.

    If losing one arm was all it took for Jermaine O'neal to rebound, than that's his problem.

    2 different injuries, believe it or not, NBA players need their legs/feet to be effective moreso than their arms/wrist. Look no further than Ron Artest playing effectively with a broken hand a year back and Horry tonight. That length of the floor isn't going to run itself, a torn ligament hurts.

  19. #19
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    Big playoff games are won with defense today. In the past, games were won on offense. Why would I be kidding?

    That would explain the Knicks, the Pacers, the Heat, the Pistons, the Rockets, the Jazz, and the other teams of the 90's that won big games with great defense.

    I didn't even have to count the Bulls.

  20. #20
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    Shaq didn't make Wade. Again, Wade made himself.
    Hey I agree with you, with a healthy Wade Miami is in the Finals but you have to realize Shaq was hurt too. Also, I take away nothing from Wade but Shaq's dominance on the court makes his teammates so much better. That's why Kobe looked so good on the Lakers and why Wade looks so good on the Heat. They are both great offensive players and powerhouses but the reason they look like MVP's is because Shaq is on the team. IF Shaq wasn't there, they would still be and are great players but they are not the MVP type players. Wade would prob. have been Finals MVP had the Heat won it all.


    2 different injuries, believe it or not, NBA players need their legs/feet to be effective moreso than their arms/wrist. Look no further than Ron Artest playing effectively with a broken hand a year back and Horry tonight. That length of the floor isn't going to run itself, a torn ligament hurts.
    Artest is just a beast. He recovered from an injury (after his surgery) that usually takes months. He's just a phenemon and a beast.

  21. #21
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    That would explain the Knicks, the Pacers, the Heat, the Pistons, the Rockets, the Jazz, and the other teams of the 90's that won big games with great defense.

    I didn't even have to count the Bulls.

    I agree but today the emphasis is placed more on defense where defense was a part of winning in the past but it didn't dominate games like it does today. Today games are defensive games (look at the Pistons, Spurs, Pacers, etc etc.)

  22. #22
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    I agree but today the emphasis is placed more on defense where defense was a part of winning in the past but it didn't dominate games like it does today. Today games are defensive games (look at the Pistons, Spurs, Pacers, etc etc.)

    Aye, same game, different era. Defense wins championships in every proffesional sport, I dare you to look back at a Knicks-Bulls or Pacers-Bulls ECF and not tell me that the defensive intensity in those games didn't match that of an Indiana-Detroit.

  23. #23
    Savior-Self
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerSoul
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    Hey I agree with you, with a healthy Wade Miami is in the Finals but you have to realize Shaq was hurt too. Also, I take away nothing from Wade but Shaq's dominance on the court makes his teammates so much better. That's why Kobe looked so good on the Lakers and why Wade looks so good on the Heat. They are both great offensive players and powerhouses but the reason they look like MVP's is because Shaq is on the team. IF Shaq wasn't there, they would still be and are great players but they are not the MVP type players. Wade would prob. have been Finals MVP had the Heat won it all.




    Artest is just a beast. He recovered from an injury (after his surgery) that usually takes months. He's just a phenemon and a beast.

    Naa, the reason they look like MVP's is because they're performing like MVP's. Granted, Shaq has an impact in every game that he plays, but if you put Howard Eisely, Jerome Moiso, Courtney Alexander and Micheal Curry around him to round out his starting five, I guarantee you he won't make them look any better than they are. Shaq makes the players around him better, but in a sense, they make him better as well. For all of his good traits, he has his flaws in his game. Detroit has now exposed them twice. Shaq needed Penny, Kobe, and Wade as much as they needed him.

  24. #24
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    If you can't hit your free throws can you be considered clutch?
    Only if you hit it!

  25. #25
    PacerSoul
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    Default Re: I have a question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Savior-Self
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    Aye, same game, different era. Defense wins championships in every proffesional sport, I dare you to look back at a Knicks-Bulls or Pacers-Bulls ECF and not tell me that the defensive intensity in those games didn't match that of an Indiana-Detroit.

    The games weren't always in the 60's and 70's (the Pacers-Bulls series)

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