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Thread: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

  1. #1
    foretaz
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    Default The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    the formula for winning a championship seems pretty consistent....and if possible would like whatever discussions take place tend to relate to the formula...

    u have to have 2 studs....2 guys that truly impact the game, in most cases, on both ends...jordan, pippen...dumars, thomas...hakeem, drexler....shaq, kobe....duncan, robinson...duncan, ginoboli....rip/r. wallace....etc. etc.

    then you have to have some very good players around them that end up being very good complements or role players whatever u like....and these guys definitely have to bring special skills to the party, usually dependent on the two studs and whats the best way to complement the two studs....any champion has this...detroit has it with billups, b. wallace, and tay-who is a stud in training as far as im concerned....they have dice off the bench....all very good players...actually, maybe a little better than what u have to have, but then their dropoff is dramatic after that, so they have quality over quantity....in their case u might be able to have a little less quality and a little more quantity-but their studs arent quite what others are, so its definitely a good mix for that team...

    jo and ron are those studs on this team....and we happen to have quite a few very good players to surround them with...maybe even more than we need at this point....however, if u take one of the two studs off, and replace them with another very good player, it wont work....then our chances are about as good as the clippers of winning the title...it just wont happen....you have to have the two...i think very highly of jt, jack and many of the other guys....but none of them are studs...and never will be....the only one that had the potential was bender, and we know what happened there, though i cant help but hope....and if u did replace artest with a dunleavy type, then bender would be our best shot at a second stud-and i really dont like the sounds of that at this point.....

    the point is u cant lose ur studs....not without getting one in return....look at what happened to the lakers...and please dont tell me odom is a stud...because hes not...

    almost without exception, any time a stud has been traded for a group of very ,very good players-but not studs-the team getting the stud gets better and the other team gets worse....

    if we wouldve been having the discussion a couple of years ago, id be saying the same things about jo that i am about artest....you just cant lose him....and in this day and age u almost always have to pay the studs the max...cause everyone wants them and someone will find a way to get them the max....jo might not be the leader he should be yet...but i believe he will be....i believe we will see him grow now that reggie is gone....but hes still young and there will be hiccups along the way

    this is what is so unique about artest...hes one of the few studs that doesnt require the max....that is potentially a huge huge plus...because it can possibly enable u to have another stud...or probably even better, a couple more very , very good players....and as a sidenote, a reason why ultimately we might be wise to consider an offense that looks to push it a little more as we could potentially maximize our better depth....

    hopefully its clear....this is probably the real reason i shudder when thinking of getting rid of ron artest....i like ron...yes....but i could live with him being gone if it makes the pacers better....but with his perceived value being what it is.....his value is far greater to us....because without a second stud we are on the outside looking in at the championship....

    i like the flexibility his contract provides from a team standpoint....i tend to be a firm believer where theres a will theres a way....id be getting all the professional help i could for him....realizing it will help as will maturing with age....id also be doing anything and everything possible to make sure the team can have the kind of chemistry required to make it work....i think jo might possibly have a bit different viewpoint now-that is to say he might realize just how important it is to have ron on the team if he wants to win a championship.....i think a great deal of jo as a person...i think he can get that...sooner or later....these guys are still young....not an excuse just a fact...i think of reggie alot and how long it was for him to mature....25 is still 25 i dont care how long u are in the league....and duncan is a freak by many differnt standards....they just dont come like him....

    you have to get jo and ron together....u have too....yea shaq and kobe won titles...but as we see it didnt last....so maybe that happens here....but i believe that unlike shaq and kobe that ron and jo are better people than the two of them...especially when it comes to kobe....i believe neither ron nor jo have the ego that kobe does....so i believe it is possible to have them come together...i truly do...it might not be easy...but i have a feeling the two of them not having each other on the court this year might adjust their thinking a bit.....

    if the other players have a problem with this....then ship em out...its that simple....they can be much more easily replaced than the studs...but if the two studs get on the same page and lead the team together, the others will almost assuredly follow....

    this team is close....if jo and ron can find a way to find a common ground....and if harrison can find a way to live up to his talent....then let me be the first to tell u....this team will win multiple titles over the next 5-10 years.....

    if one of the studs is dealt....and another one is not brought in....it will be a very very long time....at least as long as it takes to get another stud...problem is ...by that time....jo might not be the stud he is now...in which case we would need two....thus the problems that exist for most of the teams in the nba....

    we give up one of our studs for a couple good players....we give up our advantage....which in this game means ur playing against a stacked deck.....i did that for twenty years....i like being on the inside looking out.....i dont want to give it up....

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    I think most would agree Detroit breaks away from the 2-stud model.

  3. #3
    foretaz
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    I think most would agree Detroit breaks away from the 2-stud model.
    i mentioned detroit....and i would respectfully disagree....i think the only reason people might do that is because the other 3 starters are deemed to be so good as well....therefore the drop off isnt as noticeable....

    hamilton and sheed are studs....make no mistake....tay is a stud in the making-i really believe that....hes a multi dimensional player that can make an impact on the game on both ends....

    chauncey and ben are both very good players....one is 3 time dpoy and the other is regarded as one of the best point guards in the league....

    they sacrifice a bench for star power in the starting lineup....a very big risk, because if even one player goes down for whatever reason, theyre crippled beyond repair....

    its a calculated risk....their starters play huge minutes.....they have the most talented starting 5 in the league....theyre gambling that they wont lose with lack of depth....it paid off last year....its certainly paid off this year as well....but not without note is the fact that the teams they played werent as fortunate as they have been....but thats the gamble...

  4. #4
    Jesus Shuttlesworth
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i mentioned detroit....and i would respectfully disagree....i think the only reason people might do that is because the other 3 starters are deemed to be so good as well....therefore the drop off isnt as noticeable....

    hamilton and sheed are studs....make no mistake....tay is a stud in the making-i really believe that....hes a multi dimensional player that can make an impact on the game on both ends....

    chauncey and ben are both very good players....one is 3 time dpoy and the other is regarded as one of the best point guards in the league....

    they sacrifice a bench for star power in the starting lineup....a very big risk, because if even one player goes down for whatever reason, theyre crippled beyond repair....

    its a calculated risk....their starters play huge minutes.....they have the most talented starting 5 in the league....theyre gambling that they wont lose with lack of depth....it paid off last year....its certainly paid off this year as well....but not without note is the fact that the teams they played werent as fortunate as they have been....but thats the gamble...
    Sheed and Rip studs?
    Tayshaun a "stud in the making"?
    and worst yet Chauncey one of the best pgs in the league??

    Only according to Pistons fans.

  5. #5
    foretaz
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus Shuttlesworth
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    Sheed and Rip studs?
    Tayshaun a "stud in the making"?
    and worst yet Chauncey one of the best pgs in the league??

    Only according to Pistons fans.
    ya know....i actually kinda agreed with u about ur thread that was removed...then i actually kinda agreed with u, that based on the reason that urs was moved that some others probably should be moved as well....

    but now ur really just crossing the line...and ur pretty much trolling....

    ur upset ur post got moved....ok...i grant u, u might have just reason....but at some point, will u please just get over it? at least quit disturbing every thread that comes along...please...

  6. #6
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    The Pistons HAVE no "big 2." Its a 5-way tie.

    Rip was awful last night, and we won by 31. Our leading scorer was lindsey Hunter.

    Ben Wallace is a stud too. He's our most important player, if not our best.

    Oh, and if Chauncey hasn't proven himself yet as an absolute STUD point guard.....he never will. The guy is two good games away from another finals MVP.

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  7. #7
    foretaz
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    The Pistons HAVE no "big 2." Its a 5-way tie.

    Rip was awful last night, and we won by 31. Our leading scorer was lindsey Hunter.

    Ben Wallace is a stud too. He's our most important player, if not our best.

    Oh, and if Chauncey hasn't proven himself yet as an absolute STUD point guard.....he never will. The guy is two good games away from another finals MVP.

    i agree with u 2 a point...all five know their roles and the approach is such that all are equally important....

    however rip and sheed are studs....they would be studs on any other team as well.....

    ben is a defensive stud and in the right system is very very impactful....

    tay is a stud in training as i said....

    i think all these things make chauncey appear to be a bit better than he really is...his history prior to that would indicate this also....however hes still a very good player....i always liked him....only since hes become a piston has that changed-for somewhat obvious reasons...

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    He's as clutch and as tough as any player in the NBA. You can't put a price tag on that.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  9. #9
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    The Pistons HAVE no "big 2." Its a 5-way tie.
    Agreed. I hate formulas and formulaic thinking.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Point about the Pistons, Ben Wallace does impact them the most defenseively and Rip makes a huge impact for them offenseively with his constant movement although we haven't seen much from him lately.

    While no the Pistons don't have 2 studs I think you can point out Ben as the anchor to their defense and you can do the same for Rip and their offense. Of course they are so much more team orianted than most.

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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Agreed. I hate formulas and formulaic thinking.
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    Default Re: The championship formula as it relates to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    The Pistons HAVE no "big 2." Its a 5-way tie.

    Rip was awful last night, and we won by 31. Our leading scorer was lindsey Hunter.

    Ben Wallace is a stud too. He's our most important player, if not our best.

    Oh, and if Chauncey hasn't proven himself yet as an absolute STUD point guard.....he never will. The guy is two good games away from another finals MVP.


    Until the Pistons won it all in 2004, I didn't think we'd ever see a championship team led by 5 "very good players."

    That's not to knock the Pistons at all. They have an amazing group of players, and it obvoiusly worked. Any given player can lead them any night. I think we can all agree that none of the Pistons' players are in the top 5 overall, and if you look at any champion for as long back as you want, they were all lead by one of the top 5 players in the game. Rip is clutch, Chauncey is clutch.......anyone of those guys can take you out, even Hunter.

    But, I don't think teams should put their hopes on a title with 5 "very good players." It works for the Pistons, yes, but those are about the 5 best you can have in that type of system. Most of the time, you HAVE to have a top player in the game to win it all.

    The Pacers are obviously putting their hopes on one player. That's basically what a franchise is saying when they pay a guy 126 million dollars. You're counting on him and a solid supporting cast to lead you to the promise land.

    Shaq, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan......etc, all top 5 players

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