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Thread: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

  1. #26
    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    I think the argument that JO was banged up against the Pissed-On's both of the last two years is true, but when is he NOT going to be banged up after a preseason, 82 games in the regular season, and either a first-round, or first- and second-round series already played?

    I have serious doubts that this team can survive long enough to make a title run....It seems we have a team made of glass sometimes.

    Also, you don't cut slack to someone with a max contract....You just don't do it.

  2. #27
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Ehmm.... excuse me, we aren't talking about beying just a tiny bit injured here, we are talking about someone who came back early from a pretty serious injury. I don't think we should be pissing on that, sorry, just my opinion, max. contract or not. Actually I think because he has a max. contract we as a team might be MORE cautious ... we don't want to get something structurally "broke" in his body, do we?

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  3. #28
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    if u do not have 5 players on the court that are all offensive threats, the pistons will expose u....they are all outstanding defenders....they have no individual weakness on defense....which really makes it quite simple then.....if u have an offensive weakness, they will be able to offer help at all times by shading away from that offensive weakness...

    the spurs have offensive weaknesses in the front court....therefore its easy for them to have one of the other guys to help on tim...or jo...or whoever...

    only when u have 5 guys that can score, remember game 4 of the ECFs, will they be in a bit of trouble....then they cant help....because if they do u can then make them pay....and thats what the pacers did in game 4 of the ECF and what every team that beats them does....

    you have 5 guys who can score....and if u have enuff solid defenders to contain the 4 good offensive players they have....u will win....

    and yes...i would tell u that if the pacers had brad miller they would present more problems for the pistons than u could ever imagine....and if david harrison becomes that offensive threat that he can be, they will again have huge problems....they would rarely beat the pacers....

  4. #29
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    My problems with JO do not rest on the series with the Pistons. My problem with JO lies with the fact he is a max $ player and IMHO this season exposed him as having lots of work to do. He is not a player making the team better. In fact, many times the team was better without him.

    He could get there but there is plenty of room for doubt. We need to quit talking about JO being close (or better) than Duncan. He's far from it.

    Actually, Beast23's thoughts were similar to what I'd say in a lot of ways.

    --

    If the blackhole offense is not JO's idea and JO is performing how Rick wants him to then I'll be glad to give Carlisle a ride to the airport. But I have a hard time seeing Carlisle as that stupid... I think we have a player who is more focused on his own scoring and 'meism' over the good of the team. He may usually talk a good game but once he hits the court he plays a different way.

    DK mentioned wanting to see JO pass out of the doubleteams better but then added the Pacers didn't have anyone hitting their shots anyway so the point becomes moot... I have to disagree. IMHO it would balance the Pacers offensive attack better AND unbalance the opposing defense. Therefore, we should get better looks at outside shots in the flow of the game.

    And it keeps the defense honest. That is not something they (defenses) needed to worry about much last season. Just play physical with JO and he'd quickly forget the team game and revert to a player whose idea of a good game is how many he scores and his idea of defense is collecting blocked shots. All the while he'd argue with refs and forget about the game at hand. No blocking out. Whining. Forced shots. ...etc...

    Heretical statement ahead:
    IOW, JO can be more poser than player.

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  5. #30
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    My problems with JO do not rest on the series with the Pistons. My problem with JO lies with the fact he is a max $ player and IMHO this season exposed him as having lots of work to do. He is not a player making the team better. In fact, many times the team was better without him.

    He could get there but there is plenty of room for doubt. We need to quit talking about JO being close (or better) than Duncan. He's far from it.

    Actually, Beast23's thoughts were similar to what I'd say in a lot of ways.

    --

    If the blackhole offense is not JO's idea and JO is performing how Rick wants him to then I'll be glad to give Carlisle a ride to the airport. But I have a hard time seeing Carlisle as that stupid... I think we have a player who is more focused on his own scoring and 'meism' over the good of the team. He may usually talk a good game but once he hits the court he plays a different way.

    DK mentioned wanting to see JO pass out of the doubleteams better but then added the Pacers didn't have anyone hitting their shots anyway so the point becomes moot... I have to disagree. IMHO it would balance the Pacers offensive attack better AND unbalance the opposing defense. Therefore, we should get better looks at outside shots in the flow of the game.

    And it keeps the defense honest. That is not something they (defenses) needed to worry about much last season. Just play physical with JO and he'd quickly forget the team game and revert to a player whose idea of a good game is how many he scores and his idea of defense is collecting blocked shots. All the while he'd argue with refs and forget about the game at hand. No blocking out. Whining. Forced shots. ...etc...

    Heretical statement ahead:
    IOW, JO can be more poser than player.

    -Bball
    i dunno....thru the course of last season and the playoffs when JO was playing we seemed to get a LOT of good looks...i dont think the quality of shots was the problem...it was the inability to hit those shots that was the real problem.....

    teams will not change their strategy of doubling the post player because other players are getting good looks....some teams wont even change that strategy when u do hit some of those open looks-they prefer to pick their poison and see jo as a more serious threat than open looks...

    the key is the same in either case....u must be able to make a team pay....and u really only do that if u consistently hit open shots....till we do that jo as well as the offense will never be as productive as it could be....

  6. #31
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    the key is the same in either case....u must be able to make a team pay....and u really only do that if u consistently hit open shots....till we do that jo as well as the offense will never be as productive as it could be....[/SIZE]
    Players can't hit open shots if they don't have the ball... even if their man is playing off them to help out underneath and leaving them wide open.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  7. #32
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Players can't hit open shots if they don't have the ball... even if their man is playing off them to help out underneath and leaving them wide open.

    -Bball
    maybe u should review the pacers 3 point stats for the year....they took an inordinate amount of 3 point attempts....which certainly doesnt speak to lack of opportunity....

    the pacers have noone the opposition fears from beyond the arc....that player used to be reggie...but as he faded and became less of a threat teams were more willing to give up the open shot and crowd jermaine....

    by taking the long jumpers and continually missing them at a high rate u only further the defense's case for bottling up the middle....

    without ron on the floor it became apparent that the main person that could beat u was jermaine.....the pacers inability to hit outside shots with any consistency whatsoever only cemented this fact.....defenses could try to stop jermaine at all costs....because the consequences were not that severe nor did they happen very often...

  8. #33
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    maybe u should review the pacers 3 point stats for the year....they took an inordinate amount of 3 point attempts....which certainly doesnt speak to lack of opportunity....

    the pacers have noone the opposition fears from beyond the arc....that player used to be reggie...but as he faded and became less of a threat teams were more willing to give up the open shot and crowd jermaine....

    by taking the long jumpers and continually missing them at a high rate u only further the defense's case for bottling up the middle....

    without ron on the floor it became apparent that the main person that could beat u was jermaine.....the pacers inability to hit outside shots with any consistency whatsoever only cemented this fact.....defenses could try to stop jermaine at all costs....because the consequences were not that severe nor did they happen very often...

    Oddly, the Pacers seemed to hit their shots when JO was relegated to the bench. Now, maybe it only seemed that way... Or maybe there's validity to my argument that you need to let the offense flow. You can't force it and you can't continually 'defer'.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  9. #34
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Oddly, the Pacers seemed to hit their shots when JO was relegated to the bench. Now, maybe it only seemed that way... Or maybe there's validity to my argument that you need to let the offense flow. You can't force it and you can't continually 'defer'.

    -Bball
    wow...maybe u should review the games and statistics....they were grossly inconsistent...and lived and died by their ability to make outside shots....and the precise reason they probably lost games they normally won....all this while jo was out...

    i can specifically remember a few games right before jo came back that were really scary....knicks, raptors, philly, new jersey, washington....some we won and some we didnt....but the inability to hit open shots was clearly demonstrated....

  10. #35
    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    My problems with JO do not rest on the series with the Pistons. My problem with JO lies with the fact he is a max $ player and IMHO this season exposed him as having lots of work to do. He is not a player making the team better. In fact, many times the team was better without him.

    -Bball
    EXACTLY

  11. #36

    Default Re: Can we cut J.O some slack after watching Duncan struggle

    Yes, because the Spurs are doing the same dumb thing the Pacers do. Throw it in the post and stand around and watch Duncan get hammered.

    Pistons have 5 guys in the paint!

    Ball movement like games 1 and 2. Ginobli needs to cut through the hacking defense.

    Water

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