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For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

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  • #31
    Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

    Don't watch via LP (heard only horrible things), and don't attend games now that I'm not anywhere near Indy. Attended a ton of games when I moved to Nap throughout the JOB and Vogel eras though.

    Not that I advocate tanking, but I'd rather not see a bunch of over the hill guys playing for an 8th seed this season. I want a couple of legitimate younger assets mixed in (sorry, don't believe much in Niang, JoYo, etc). I think if we could add a guard or wing to the younger core of Myles, Leaf, and GRIII then I would be happy.
    Last edited by Ichi; 06-30-2017, 03:25 AM.

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    • #32
      Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

      Originally posted by Wage View Post
      To me "tanking" means making moves where the goal of the move is to be worse than before. I do not support tanking. What I do think we need to do is tear it down and sell off any assets that are too old to build around and have value. This will likely cause us to get worse, but that is a side effect and not the goal. There is a big difference.

      My offseason would look something like this:
      1. Trade PG and acquire young players and draft picks. If for example the proposed Boston deal were done, I would immediately look to repackage Crowder and Bradley for yet more youth/picks.
      2. Tell Teague and CJ to hit the road
      3. Trade Thad if you can get any sort of value
      4. Sell cap space to teams looking to make a splash in free agency and take back more youth/picks as the cost
      5. Any leftover space take shots on cheap young guys that could be sleepers
      6. Play the hell out of the youngsters

      The next offseason you evaluate where you are and start making moves to get better. Don't sell out for role players, but if you see a gap you can fill go for it.

      If we were to put together a young team that plays hard and had room to grow, I would be even more invested and would make the trip to attend even more games next year. Watching this team for years have no chance at making noise in the playoffs and no room to improve has been frustrating and has sapped my love for watching the games.
      Originally posted by Wage View Post
      I actually think this goes the complete opposite way. I would have felt way better about keeping PG if he was looking around the locker room at a bunch of 20 to 25 year old hard working dudes that were steadily improving. He may still have wanted to join a super team, but there is at least a chance he would have thought he could lead the young guys. Instead he is looking around at a bunch of capped out guys that honestly just don't move the needle and a team with no realistic way to improve. Even if fans aren't smart enough to realize it, I think most players know that a treadmill team is the absolute worst thing you can be in the league.
      Two excellent posts by Wage.

      Very much summarizes how I feel... I'm not in support of tanking as a goal, but indeed see a deep (hopefully) short slump as a side effect of our sins from 2014 to today.

      We are NOT going to get a fair value for PG!!! Thus we better get potential rather than watered-down version geared for next season. No overpaid veterans, not even fairly-paid mediocre veterans.

      Maneuveur for a great cap situation with abundance of young talent in team (TJ Leaf doesn't count and was real letdown of a pick). Then eventually try an instant return to upper echelons with one summer shot of creating something special... I would love to do that already in a year, but after botching this year's draft we probably won't have collected enough young potential in time. So more likely we are looking for Summer 2019 or even Summer 2020.

      The year we go for a splash - we need to have 50 million dollars available under the cap. That means we either do it 2019 OR we trade Myles for prospects a year or two younger in league as we can not start with any maximum contracts in the books.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

        where's the "I'm opposed to tanking" button??
        So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

        If you've done 6 impossible things today?
        Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

          As said a rebuild almost always means they will be bad but it doesn't have to mean tank. IMO the only situation a "tank" could help this Pacer team would be this year in order to increase the odds for a top three pick. After that they should absolutely play to win games. If waiving Monta and Al is tanking then so be it

          The biggest key to future success for the Pacers will be finding the right running mate for Myles. The draft will be the best place to pull that off and getting/keeping future draft assets is a must in any PG trade. Would also consider moving Thad for an 18 or 19 first as well.

          Rarely go to games living where I do and with travel commitments. My league pass subscription is in jeopardy though pending the outcome of the PG exit. If they get mostly role player vets, resign Teague and sign up for a further run of NBA purgatory then I probably cancel.
          Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 06-30-2017, 09:09 AM.

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          • #35
            Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

            I don't think we have to "tank" by definition, necessarily. Thanks to the contracts that are ending after this season and the likelihood of getting an ok package out of trading PG, we should be able to quickly shed salary while acquiring picks and youth. We'll lose a number of games the next two seasons, but it'll be because our roster is completely remade and full of young guys with potential, not because we had to firesale everything and take on contracts like Luol Deng. Although, with some of the outrageous deals guys got last off-season, we could assist a team or two in getting out of those contracts for their first round picks.

            I might end up going to more games because tickets will probably be discounted constantly. I usually make it to just a handful of games every year, and I tell everyone I talk about the Pacers with that if I can make it through the brawl and the JOB era, I can make it through a rebuild. I have confidence in Pritchard to gather assets and make this a much quicker process than what we've seen in Philly, or heaven forbid, Sacramento. I think we'll be in the lottery for two years before scratching back into the playoffs on youth and effort. At that point, hopefully we've played the cap well and can pay a max free agent to come in and lift the team to another level. Similar to the way Bird built the PG/Roy/GHill/Lance + DWest lineup, but with higher lotto picks and a higher price free agent.
            It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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            • #36
              Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

              Originally posted by able View Post
              where's the "I'm opposed to tanking" button??
              Probably another thread considering the title of the one you are currently in.
              "THIS IS MY CITY."- PAUL GEORGE

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              • #37
                Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                I live in another state, so it's not feasible for me to attend games regularly. If I'm in town (which is like twice a year), and they're playing, I usually go and see a game. I watch every game on TV, and consider myself a die hard fan. I'm not sure why attending games would make me any less of a fan, or be a reason to question my allegiance, which is really want this was about (let's be honest here). I don't like the word tank, and it seems like a cop out word for teams that are truly rebuilding from the ground up. When you lose your star, there is no better way to attempt to get another than with acquiring young assets and draft picks that have the chance to become a star. If we are in a rebuild, I truly believe giving all of your young guys plenty of minutes is the way to go in order to see how they develop. They are going to be plenty of mistakes, which likely results in loses for the short term. I don't see a problem with developing your newly acquired young players for the future knowing full well that competing in the short term isn't really an option.

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                • #38
                  Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                  I use to go to 10 games a year. The last game I paid for was game 5 versus the Hawks in 2013. The way that team imploded, the selfishness of PG/Lance/Roy, and the way West dogged it turned me off to the Pacers. We always have said that JO was a diva, but he has nothing on PG. Why should I invest hundreds of dollars into entitled millionaires and a detached billionaire? That is my money. I can't complain about the mentality if I am funding that mentality.

                  I am willing to support a tank. It is a detox of what has happened since that 2013 season. January of that year I was excited, and it was zapped fast. Not as fast as Artest punching Piston fans. At least we saw punks get jacked as the ship sank. 2013 we got jacked by Punks that we were paying to see.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                    Oops. My brain isn't functioning well this morning. I didn't make the connection between the poll and "if you advocate tanking". I don't advocate it, but clicked in anyway. That'll skew it toward the STH end.

                    I think clarifying what we are "tanking" for is important. "Tanking" until you get a franchise-changing player is the usual extreme definition, and that is the one that can take a decade and a LOT of luck to be successful. One problem is that if you get a guy who needs a few years to get on track then you get impatient (because Elite players are always at their best the first three years, you know) and trade that guy while staying on the wheel waiting for another one.

                    At the other extreme, going for one (or at most 2) bad year to clear cap space and gather assets is more realistic but certainly less exciting for fans because the goal is more amorphous. You could be setting up a team of role-players who work as hard as they can but just can't overcome the rest of the league. It seems more valid, but you are really not going to be in the "guaranteed" top-4 pick range unless you are truly a D-League team. That requires getting rid of ALL players with potential on your team (and for us that would include Myles) because otherwise you will frustrate them completely by putting them in a position to be losing every single night.

                    Clearing cap space in a target year for a future FA run is fine, but even teams with tons to offer don't always win the sweepstakes. For instance, if the way you cleared the decks was to assemble the team discussed above, what incentive other than money do you have to get that FA? You can't pay them more than their current team, and you clearly don't have players to pair with them. Cleared cap space is good for absorbing salaries in trades, but that almost always requires sacrificing it to an albatross contract in order to get a team to trade you an upper-tier guy. Notwithstanding it takes two (or more) teams to want to make a trade, you can probably do that once without running out of cap to go after the FA to pair with the guy you traded for.
                    BillS

                    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                      I am never in favor of tanking. It is so much easier to build a contending team from a base of 40 wins with a star player (PG) than it is to build a contender from a base of 25 wins with a roster filled with only role players. I never wanted to trade PG, I believe it will take at least 10 years for the Pacers to acquire a player as good as PG - it could take 15-20 years. But then I value PG a little higher than most. Although I think I value star players more than most in general.


                      Having said that, PG has left us no choice. I would love to trade PG for another star player - but that seems highly unlikely. So we are left to trade PG for role players and a high draft pick or two. We are left to live for lottery day, draft day and the long haul of hoping one of your young draftees turns into a player as good as PG. Not a fun or easy task.

                      But I loved through the 80's. I went 15 years following the pacers without them making the playoffs (I don't count 1981 - 2 games is not the playoffs) actually it was more like 17 or 18 years. I lived through the coin toss, the first years of the lottery, the second picks - Stipo and Wayman, Rik. We all thought Wayman was the star we needed. It is painfull depending on winning the lottery, waiting from draft day and then waiting for a young star to emerge and then 3 or 4 years later you finally realize wow Wayman isn't going to get any better than this. Trading him for Tank and Wittman. No fun. I'm not looking forward to it. But my point is we don't have much of a choice right now.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                        Originally posted by Heisenberg View Post
                        Being a mid-tier market I think you always need to have a forward thinking vision of how to compete. "Get in the playoffs and let the cookie crumble" isn't a vision, it ain't that hard to get into the playoffs, over half the league makes it, factually below average teams make it every season.

                        That's really the only plan I've seen from the Pacers. There are merits to be had for putting a mostly decent to good product out for so long, to be sure, it's respectable to put a team on the floor that any given night is going to put on a good show for Jimmy Joe and Suzie Q Casual Fan, I get that. I've reached my limit with that. It's time to adapt, tear it down, and build from the ground up. Tanking isn't "just go lose." It's gutting the roster, playing youth, finding cornerstone pieces through the course of that, and yes, losing games and acquiring top tier talent via the draft as a result of that losing. But there's "just go lose" and then there's "lose w/ a purpose." The first infers actively trying to lose, that's unethical and an insult to fans. The latter is a step in a long term goal.

                        We all want the Pacers to win a title eventually right? We've been doing the re-tool not re-build thing for a long, long time. Hasn't gotten the Pacers a title. Let's try a different way.
                        This. I'm tired of being good, but never good enough.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          I am never in favor of tanking. It is so much easier to build a contending team from a base of 40 wins with a star player (PG) than it is to build a contender from a base of 25 wins with a roster filled with only role players. I never wanted to trade PG, I believe it will take at least 10 years for the Pacers to acquire a player as good as PG - it could take 15-20 years. But then I value PG a little higher than most. Although I think I value star players more than most in general.


                          Having said that, PG has left us no choice. I would love to trade PG for another star player - but that seems highly unlikely. So we are left to trade PG for role players and a high draft pick or two. We are left to live for lottery day, draft day and the long haul of hoping one of your young draftees turns into a player as good as PG. Not a fun or easy task.

                          But I loved through the 80's. I went 15 years following the pacers without them making the playoffs (I don't count 1981 - 2 games is not the playoffs) actually it was more like 17 or 18 years. I lived through the coin toss, the first years of the lottery, the second picks - Stipo and Wayman, Rik. We all thought Wayman was the star we needed. It is painfull depending on winning the lottery, waiting from draft day and then waiting for a young star to emerge and then 3 or 4 years later you finally realize wow Wayman isn't going to get any better than this. Trading him for Tank and Wittman. No fun. I'm not looking forward to it. But my point is we don't have much of a choice right now.
                          Almost every contender these days rebuilt from the bottom, including Cleveland and Golden State.

                          If you're fine with topping out as a conference finalist, then sure. But I want at least one championship. Nothing else is good enough for me any more.

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                          • #43
                            Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                            Even though you can buy tickets in the club/lower level for about 75% less than face value on various sites I've mastered how to get in the club/lower level with just a $6 balcony ticket. So that's the route I will continue to take going forward with myself & however many guests I bring. Cheaper to go to NBA games than high school basketball games. Anyone that says they can't afford Pacers games might be right but they're probably underneath one of those downtown bridges. And even they have enough change to attend a game.

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                            • #44
                              Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                              Originally posted by able View Post
                              where's the "I'm opposed to tanking" button??
                              It's been renamed to the "Never gonna win a championship" button.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: For those of you hoping for and advocating a full blown tanking for next year and whatever to come

                                Originally posted by Shade View Post
                                Almost every contender these days rebuilt from the bottom, including Cleveland and Golden State.

                                If you're fine with topping out as a conference finalist, then sure. But I want at least one championship. Nothing else is good enough for me any more.
                                I would dispute the Cavs built from the bottom up. They drafted Kyrie - that is all the building they did. They got lucky Lebron decided to come back, otherwise they would be a 44 win team built around Kyrie and Wiggins.

                                And actually the Warriors didn't build from the bottom up either. The only top 6 pick on their team they traded for. Curry was 7th and Klay was 11th. Drammond 35th. Also do you realize they went 12 straight years from 1995 through 2006 without making the playoffs? And then another 5 straight years without playoffs from '08 - '12. In fact they went 17 out of 18 years without making the playoffs.

                                are you willing to go 18 years and only make the playoffs 1 time? And how many times during those years did they get a top 3 pick

                                During the 18 years in question, the Warriors made the playoffs once, the pacers went to 5 ECF, 1 NBA finals
                                Last edited by Unclebuck; 06-30-2017, 10:51 AM.

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