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Thread: A question for Skaut_Ech...

  1. #1
    Harmonica
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    Default A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Skaut, you wrote the following in the Artest for Dampier thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Ya know, for the longest time, I've been maintaining that I want Ron to stay, but I'm starting to change my mind about it.
    Seeing as you are one of the only people here who's "starting to change their mind about Ron," I'm curious as to what brought this change about?

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    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Skaut, you wrote the following in the Artest for Dampier thread:



    Seeing as you are one of the only people here who's "starting to change their mind about Ron," I'm curious as to what brought this change about?
    I wanted to allow myself the end of the season and a little perspective before I started thinking really hard about keeping him. >>

    Thereís something that keeps nagging at me. >>

    Ron has always had emotional problems. His coach in college said he had a ďdark side.Ē I talked to someone in his family, who views him as emotionally and intellectually stunted. If I remember right, when he had that camera destruction incident, he was going through anger management. I think about him going after Pat Riley, various times where he tore up Bulls equipment in anger. Thereís the string of suspensions and fines. The fact that the Bulls got tired of dealing with him. >>

    I just donít see Ron changing. >>

    Sure he will to an extent, but he is who he is. >>

    I admit, I still hold a huge grudge against him for derailing our season the way he did. (And please, I donít want a breakdown of the minutae of who did what, folks. Bottom line, Ron doesnít go into the stands, nothing happens, we come off looking good and the Pistons end up looking like jerks.) >>

    That being said, I think itís too dangerous to keep him. I honestly think heíll have another incident in the future and itíll be something big. Not like this past one by any means, but none-the-less, I think itíll happen. >>

    I think about guys heís compared against: Sprewell had a big history of on and off court incidents. Violent incidents. He cleaned up his act for a while, but now is a major disruptive influence for the Wolves. Rodman was a freak, but he had a HUGE factor in controlling him. Jordan. We donít have a strong charismatic leader like Jordan who can wither ANY teammate with just a look. Vernon Maxwell had the strong spiritual influence of Hakeem. I just donít if we have an on-court guy to corral him. >>

    If anyone can try and keep Ron in check, I think Carlisle and Bird can do it. They both appear no-nonsense about things. >>

    But I just have this nagging suspension about Ron. Something is going to happen and itís going to further tarnish our franchise and/or affect the outcome of something important, whether itís immediately, or has an affect down the road for playoff positioning. >>

    I know Ron has turned down being medicated in the past. Thatís understandable, given his upbringing, but heís had years and years of ďanger managementĒ and it doesnít seem to affect him. >>

    Iím sure a lot of folks are saying, heís finally decided to change, so if he puts his mind to it, maybe itíll happen. Itís just that I have this nagging feeling that somewhere down the road is lurking another bad incident for the Pacers and Ron is going to be at the center of it. >>

    I just donít know if I want to feel that dread for the next few years.

  3. #3
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Thanks for the reply, Skaut. A couple of more questions. When exactly did this change come about? Was it more gradual or sudden? And was there ever a time when you liked having Ron on the team or felt comfortable with him here? I guess what I'm trying to get at is how predisposed you were to changing your feelings about Ron.

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    But I just have this nagging suspension about Ron.....
    Very clever, Skaut!.........
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  5. #5
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    Very clever, Skaut!.........
    Freudian to say the least.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Ack!! Am I nuts or what...Skaut your reply shows up as having all thes < and ! and Empty Paras in it....was that intentional or is my system not interpreting symbols????
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Ack!! Am I nuts or what...Skaut your reply shows up as having all thes < and ! and Empty Paras in it....was that intentional or is my system not interpreting symbols????
    Time to replace that Commodore computer Geezer.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Time to replace that Commodore computer Geezer.

    hmmm I don't think "The Colonel" is going to spring for a new 'puter for me...not for awhile yet. Comapaq Deskpro with a Pentium III....better'n my old IBM XT tho.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Member Vicious Tyrant's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Skaut, what an avatar - is that you?
    "If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy

  10. #10
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious Tyrant
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    Skaut, what an avatar - is that you?
    Uh........

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    Very clever, Skaut!.........
    Wow. I'd like to take credit, but Harmonica hit it on the head. Completely Freudian. That's funny. I proofread it twice.

    Thanks for the reply, Skaut. A couple of more questions. When exactly did this change come about? Was it more gradual or sudden? And was there ever a time when you liked having Ron on the team or felt comfortable with him here? I guess what I'm trying to get at is how predisposed you were to changing your feelings about Ron.
    Let me put it this way: In most of my responses to threads ab`out should Ron stay or go, I always argued that recently some of the championship teams had one certifiable wild card/loony to throw the other team off balance. I argued that Ron was essential to our success.

    The change has been gradual, but it was sparked by something a little odd; The Tyson fight.

    I was thinking how despite Mike making millions, getting to travel the world, have access to ways to better himself and people to emulate, he still ultimately is that same street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff. (I'm refering to him trying to break McBride's arm and biting his nipple.)

    All of a sudden I flashed to Ron.... a street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff.

    I felt myself slowly climbing onto the fence about Ron as the season progressed. THen watching the finals, I got to thinking, there but for the grace of Ron, goes us. A Spurs/Pacers finals. The thing I wanted in 1998, but where the Pacer screwed us fans hard with one of the biggest choke jobs I've ever seen a team pull in the NBA, when a title is on the line.

    Watching the Tyson fight, coupled with watching the finals finally started pushing me to the "Ron must go" side, if that makes sense to you.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    What happened in 1988?

  12. #12
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Let me put it this way: In most of my responses to threads about should Ron stay or go, I always argued that recently some of the championship teams had one certifiable wild card/loony to throw the other team off balance. I argued that Ron was essential to our success.

    The change has been gradual, but it was sparked by something a little odd; The Tyson fight.

    I was thinking how despite Mike making millions, getting to travel the world, have access to ways to better himself and people to emulate, he still ultimately is that same street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff. (I'm refering to him trying to break McBride's arm and biting his nipple.)

    All of a sudden I flashed to Ron.... a street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff.

    I felt myself slowly climbing onto the fence about Ron as the season progressed. THen watching the finals, I got to thinking, there but for the grace of Ron, goes us. A Spurs/Pacers finals. The thing I wanted in 1988, but where the Pacer screwed us fans hard with one of the biggest choke jobs I've ever seen a team pull in the NBA, when a title is on the line.

    Watching the Tyson fight, coupled with watching the finals finally started pushing me to the "Ron must go" side, if that makes sense to you.
    Makes perfect sense. I never made the connection before, but the Tyson analogy isn't a bad one, in my opinion. They're almost frighteningly similar when you think about it.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    I can't believe you're basing your decision about Ron, with Mike.

    Ron has problems, but not even a tenth of Mike's.

  14. #14
    Harmonica
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    I can't believe you're basing your decision about Ron, with Mike.

    Ron has problems, but not even a tenth of Mike's.
    Really?

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    They're almost frighteningly similar when you think about it.
    Yes.

    Ron says no one likes him because he is a "big dumb ******."

    Ron tells his opponents that he is going to eat their children.

    Ron beats on people's car hoods because they were involved in an accident.

    Ron's been convicted of raping women. EDIT: raping a woman, not women.

    Ron robs 15y/o girls, which are the neices of his management people.

    Need I continue?

    EDIT: Plus Mike, purposely, drove his car head on into a tree, not to kill himself but to know what it feels like.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Uh........



    Wow. I'd like to take credit, but Harmonica hit it on the head. Completely Freudian. That's funny. I proofread it twice.



    Let me put it this way: In most of my responses to threads ab`out should Ron stay or go, I always argued that recently some of the championship teams had one certifiable wild card/loony to throw the other team off balance. I argued that Ron was essential to our success.

    The change has been gradual, but it was sparked by something a little odd; The Tyson fight.

    I was thinking how despite Mike making millions, getting to travel the world, have access to ways to better himself and people to emulate, he still ultimately is that same street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff. (I'm refering to him trying to break McBride's arm and biting his nipple.)

    All of a sudden I flashed to Ron.... a street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff.

    I felt myself slowly climbing onto the fence about Ron as the season progressed. THen watching the finals, I got to thinking, there but for the grace of Ron, goes us. A Spurs/Pacers finals. The think I wanted in 1988, but where the Pacer screwed us fans hard with one of the biggest choke jobs I've ever seen a team pull in the NBA, when a title is on the line.

    Watching the Tyson fight, coupled with watching the finals finally started pushing me to the "Ron must go" side, if that makes sense to you.

    This is going to be a very freightening post for some people around here...others will say "Who's Mike?"
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

  17. #17
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Yes.

    Ron says no one likes him because he is a "big dumb ******."

    Ron tells his opponents that he is going to eat their children.

    Ron beats on people's car hoods because they were involved in an accident.

    Ron's been convicted of raping women. EDIT: raping a woman, not women.

    Ron robs 15y/o girls, which are the neices of his management people.

    Need I continue?

    EDIT: Plus Mike, purposely, drove his car head on into a tree, not to kill himself but to know what it feels like.
    Both come from troubled upbringings.

    Both possess great talent in their respective sports.

    Both have a man/child quality about them.

    Both have a laundry list of incidents while engaging in their respective sport.

    Both have a laundry list of incidents outside of their respective sports.

    Both have a history of violence.

    Both have anger/impulse issues.

    Both have demonstrated an inability to change despite heavy penalties levied on them by their respective sports.

    Both have a history of unusual (bizarre) behavior.


    I can keep going on if you want me to.


    EDIT: Both have brought unfavorable attention to their sport.

    Both have damaged their reputations through repeated offenses.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Crazy, just crazy I tell you.

    Comparing Mike and Ron is utter nonsense. But at this point I say whatever. I'm tired of it all.

    Myabe I mised it, but when was Ron ever convicted of Rape. Whe did Ron spend a few years in prison. Comparing Ron and Mike off the curt or out of the ring is total BS. Has Ron ever said he wants to eat children

    I could go on.

    But why bother.

    Let's use a wide brush and paint everyone who has ever had some problems with the Tyson brush.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    I can keep going on if you want me to.

    But wouldn't that require comprehension skills on the part of a certain reader?






  20. #20
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Crazy, just crazy I tell you.

    Comparing Mike and Ron is utter nonsense. But at this point I say whatever. I'm tired of it all.
    The similarities are there, albeit extreme. And that wasn't his point. It was about people like Mike and Ron and their ability to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Comparing Mike and Ron is utter nonsense. But at this point I say whatever. I'm tired of it all.
    Oh come on, Unclebuck, piling it on and using hyperbole are F-U-N FUN!

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Both come from troubled upbringings.

    Both possess great talent in their respective sports.

    Both have a man/child quality about them.

    Both have a laundry list of incidents while engaging in their respective sport.

    Both have a laundry list of incidents outside of their respective sports.

    Both have a history of violence.

    Both have anger/impulse issues.

    Both have demonstrated an inability to change despite heavy penalties levied on them by their respective sports.

    Both have a history of unusual (bizarre) behavior.


    I can keep going on if you want me to.

    So because they both inhabit same individual characteristics, Ron is going to turn out like Mike? That's down right absurd. How many people in this world have the same characteristics, then how many Mike Tysons are there?

    Here's a timeline of events from ESPN. (I've taken out the actual boxing events, unless there was a problem)
    http://espn.go.com/boxing/news/2002/0129/1319772.html

    1978 -- Arrested for purse snatching as a 12-year-old in Brooklyn and sent to Tryon School for Boys.

    1982 -- Expelled from Catskill High School for a series of transgressions.

    June 17, 1988 -- Givens and her family go public with tales of beatings by Tyson.

    Aug. 23, 1988 -- Breaks a bone in his right hand in a 4 a.m. street brawl with professional fighter Mitch Green in Harlem.

    Sept. 4, 1988 -- Tyson is knocked unconscious after driving his BMW into a tree. Three days later, the New York Daily News reports the accident was a "suicide attempt" caused by a "chemical imbalance" that made him violent and irrational.

    Sept. 30, 1988 -- Givens says in a nationally televised interview that Tyson is a manic-depressive and that she is afraid of him. Tyson sits meekly next to her.

    Dec. 12, 1988 -- Sandra Miller of New York sues Tyson for allegedly grabbing her, propositioning her and insulting her at a nightclub. A jury later finds Tyson guilty of battery, fining him only $100.

    Dec. 15, 1988 -- Lori Davis of New York sues Tyson for allegedly grabbing her buttocks while she was dancing at the same nightclub on the same night as the incident with Miller.

    April 9, 1989 -- Accused of striking a parking attendant three times with an open hand outside a Los Angeles nightclub after the attendant asked Tyson to move his Mercedes--Benz out of a spot reserved for the club's owner. The charges are later dropped due to lack of witness cooperation.

    Nov. 1, 1990 -- A New York City civil jury finds Tyson committed battery in the Sandra Miller case, but Miller is awarded just $100 in damages because the jury decides Tyson's behavior was "not outrageous."

    July 18, 1991 -- Tyson meets Desiree Washington, a Miss Black America contestant, at a pageant rehearsal. They go to the boxer's hotel room in the early morning hours.

    July 22, 1991 -- Washington files a complaint with police accusing Tyson of rape.

    May 8, 1992 -- Tyson is found guilty of threatening a guard and disorderly conduct in prison, adding 15 days to his sentence.

    June 28, 1997 -- Tyson is disqualified after the third round of his rematch with Holyfield after he bites Holyfield twice, once on each ear. Tyson claims he was retaliating for a head butt inflicted by Holyfield that opened up a gash above his right eye. Referee Mills Lane ruled the butt was accidental.

    Oct. 16, 1997 -- Ordered to pay boxer Mitch Green $ 45,000 even though a jury ruled the former heavyweight champion was provoked into a Harlem street fight in 1988.

    Oct. 29, 1997 -- Broke a rib and punctured a lung on his right side when his motorcycle skidded off a Connecticut highway after hitting a patch of sand.

    March 9, 1998 -- Sherry Cole and Chevelle Butts filed a $22 million lawsuit against Tyson claiming he verbally and physically abused them March 1 at a Washington bistro them at a restaurant after his sexual advances toward one of them were spurned.

    July 29, 1998 -- Appeared before the New Jersey Athletic Control Board to get a boxing license to resume his career. Tyson first choked back tears as he apologized for biting Evander Holyfield's ears. At the end of his 35-minute appearance, however, Tyson cursed in front of regulators after being continually questioned about biting Holyfield.

    Aug. 31, 1998 -- Was involved in a minor auto accident in Gaithersburg, Md., and had to be restrained by bodyguards from fighting the driver of the other car.

    Sept. 2, 1998 -- Richard Hardick filed an assault charge against Tyson. Hardick says he was kicked in the groin by Tyson after his car rear-ended a Mercedes driven by Tyson's wife, Monica, on Aug. 31.

    Sept. 3, 1998 -- Abmielec Saucedo filed a criminal assault against Tyson claiming Tyson punched him in the face as Saucedo talked with another driver following the accident of Aug. 31.

    Dec. 1, 1998 -- Tyson pleads no contest to misdemeanor assault for kicking and punching two motorists involved in the Aug. 31 auto accident in Maryland.

    Jan. 16, 1999 -- Tyson knocked out Francois Botha in the fifth round. Tyson admitted to trying to break Botha's arm during the fight

    Feb. 5, 1999 -- Tyson was sentenced to two concurrent two-year sentences for assaulting two motorists after a traffic accident last summer. Judge Stephen Johnson suspended all but one year of jail time. Tyson was also fined $5,000 and sentenced to two years' probation after his release from jail. The decision could lead to more jail time for violating parole in Indiana.

    Feb. 20, 1999 -- Tyson was put in an isolation cell after a disturbance Saturday night at the Montgomery County Detention Center. Several TV stations in Washington reported that Tyson became upset, either in his cell or a break room, and threw a television set. The set narrowly missed jail guards, and there were no injuries. It was later reported that Tyson was taken off anti-depressants two days previous to this incident.

    October 24, 1999 -- vs. Orlin Norris Tyson hit Norris after the bell in the 1st round and the fight was declared a no contest

    Feb 8, 2000 -- Former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson reached a settlement Monday with two women who alleged the boxer assaulted them at a restaurant in the nation's capital, The Washington Post reported in its Tuesday and Chevelle Butts, both 33, filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Greenbelt. They said they were in the Au Pied de Cochon restaurant in the city's Georgetown neighborhood on March, 1, 1998, when Tyson grabbed Cole and requested a sexual relationship. They alleged Tyson, who served time in an Indiana prison for a rape conviction, swore at Butts after learning she was a correctional officer. In papers filed by Tyson's lawyers, six witnesses said the boxer was verbally harassed by the women and was not abusive. Cole and Butts were seeking a total of $7.5 million in damages. Lawyers for both sides said they agreed to keep terms of the settlement confidential.

    May 19, 2000 -- American boxer Mike Tyson's lawyer said that his client is determined to clear his name following allegations that the boxer hit a stripper in a Las Vegas nightclub. The dancer, Victoria Bianco, has filed a report on the alleged incident with local police who are now investigating her claim, according to the BBC reports on Friday. Bianco claims the former world heavyweight champion punched her in the chest and hurled expletives at her in a club where she was working as a topless dancer. Police were called to the scene, but after interviewing witnesses, including Tyson himself, they decided not to press charges.

    June 27, 2000 -- A former topless dancer is seeking unspecified damages from heavyweight boxer Mike Tyson in connection with a May incident in which she says the boxer struck her while she was at work. In a lawsuit filed Friday, Victoria Bianco said Tyson struck her in the chest without provocation at Cheetah's, a topless club near downtown Las Vegas. The lawsuit has not been brought to court yet (as of Jan. 23, 2002).

    June 24, 2000 -- vs. Lou Savarese. Tyson knocked the referee down in order to keep punching Savarese after the bout was stopped.

    July 29, 2001 -- Heavyweight boxer Mike Tyson continued preparations for his next fight Sunday in Phoenix while authorities in California continued investigating an allegation that he sexually assaulted Arlene Moorman, 50, at his rented home in the small mountain town of Big Bear City. Tyson, a former world champion who served three years in prison for a 1992 rape, has not been charged in the alleged incident, although San Bernardino County sheriff's investigators have indicated they wanted to question the boxer in the near future.

    Aug. 18, 2001 -- California prosecutors have decided not to press charges against boxer Mike Tyson in connection with an alleged sexual assault on Arlene Moorman near Big Bear Lake.

    Dec. 18, 2001 -- Police were today investigating claims that Mike Tyson assaulted an ex--boxer outside a New York nightclub. Retired heavyweight Mitchell Rose has filed a complaint, claiming Tyson attacked him after he made a joke about the former champion's entourage of women. Police in New York are investigating the claims but have not yet interviewed Tyson, a convicted rapist, or pressed any charges following the alleged incident early on Sunday morning.

    Jan. 2, 2002 -- Mike Tyson checked out of a Havana hotel early Wednesday, a day after witnesses said he tossed glass Christmas ornaments at journalists trying to interview him. There were no reports of injuries, arrests or serious damage following the Tuesday evening dispute. The former heavyweight champion reportedly was headed to the airport for a flight on Air Jamaica after checking out at dawn, workers at the Hotel Melia Habana said.

    Jan. 22, 2002 -- Tyson and Lennox Lewis come to blows during their scheduled TV press conference hyping their April 6th meeting. It was alleged that Tyson bit Lennox's leg during the melee.

    Jan. 22, 20002 -- Police in Las Vegas said that they found evidence supporting a woman's claim she was raped by Tyson. The case is with the local district attorney's office, which will decide over the next weeks whether to charge Tyson.






    May have some of the same characteristics, but Mike is so far off the spectrum it's laughable.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    So Harmonica, I think I've seen you on both sides of the "Can Ron change?" discussion lately.

    Or am I misreading?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #24
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    The similarities are there, albeit extreme. And that wasn't his point. It was about people like Mike and Ron's ability to change.
    Thank you! Sheesh!!

    Folks, are you not getting it. I wasn't making a comparision to put down Ron, but to show how maybe people can't change.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    The similarities are there, albeit extreme. And that wasn't his point. It was about people like Mike and Ron and their ability to change.

    So because Mike didn't change, neither will Ron?

    Let's just lock up every single person with those characteristics then. Mike didn't change, therefore no one that has any of his qualities can.

    EDIT:

    There's a big difference with Ron and Mike. Mike would apologize, and then if he was being asked about the event more he would snap again. Ron not only apologizes, but doesn't make the same mistakes.

    I'm completely fine with the reason of not wanting Ron on the team because of past transgressions, even though I don't agree with them. But comparing people, especially to Iron Mike, isn't fair.

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