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Thread: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

  1. #51
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Wink Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Eh, quit telling me what to think.

    I've wanted his butt off the Pacers since the day they traded for him; that ain't going to change and it has nothing to do with forgiveness. Its not that I don't have any confidence he can change; its that I'm 100% confident he won't change.

    He's always been part of the problem; the solution has always been to cast him off and re-work the team without him. Even without having a replacement, this team was good enough to lose to Detroit in six games again this season, so finding another SF to get them over the hump is not an impossible task. And yes, it might take a season or two for that to all come together. But that's still less time than "never". When Ron's career ends, I'm not even sure he'll be known as the "best player to never play in The Finals."

    There are plenty of 3rd-team all-NBA players that have not and will never win a championship. But none of them are anywhere near as disruptive as Ron.

    A player's value includes everything, not just thier on-court production. Yes, I exaggerate when I say I'd trade him for a bag of chips. Big deal.
    I'm not exaggerating when I say I'd trade him for a bag of chips. They could even be stale. (yes of course it would be nice to get something useful for him, point is, just get him the hell off this team)

  2. #52

    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    The guy I would consider trading Ron for is Ron's buddy Lamar Odom. I like Odom's passing game and his ability to play both forward positions. I think he would be a nice fit playing side-by-side with JO and Steve Jackson. I'd prefer Ron, but of all the Artest trades that have bounced around, I like an Odom trade best.

  3. #53

    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Ron and Bender work for Odom and the tall Eastern European.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman
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    The guy I would consider trading Ron for is Ron's buddy Lamar Odom. I like Odom's passing game and his ability to play both forward positions. I think he would be a nice fit playing side-by-side with JO and Steve Jackson. I'd prefer Ron, but of all the Artest trades that have bounced around, I like an Odom trade best.
    Think Phil would have a calming influence on Ron? I think Ron would go off the deep end (as if he hasn't already) with all the distractions here in LA. Or maybe it would have the opposite effect. Who knows.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I would've thought you were joking if you stopped a little sooner. But you kept going and I just couldn't wait to start typing *that* reply.

    Stopped a little sooner! {howling}

    That was a short post!

    Can't you see it takes him five paragraphs just to say no? {giggle,giggle,snort}

  6. #56
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    Stopped a little sooner! {howling}

    That was a short post!

    Can't you see it takes him five paragraphs just to say no? {giggle,giggle,snort}

  7. #57
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Last year, the story was that Ron was more interested in busting his *** to promote that album than bust his *** to help the Pacers.

    First, he promised the album would be done by the time the season started. It was reported that he came into camp out of shape and the album wasn't done. Alledgedly, he wanted time off to finish that, or at least that was the "public story" but many of us also know that he just plain volunteered to quit on the team.

    Perhaps he will bust his *** no matter what the situation is. Maybe he won't. That's anything but a certainty, however. The more important question is, will Ron be busting his *** while he looks out for #1, as he's known to do? Or will he ever learn to channel his efforts toward the team (and willingly submit his individual talents for the good of the team)?

    I've always said, if we were picking players for the NBA 1-on-1 tourney that Ron would be my guy. But in a team setting, he's not very useful and he's borderline expendable.

    If he were to be traded, I'd be happy with a box of warm Krispy Kreme's. I'd like the Pacers to come up with *any* other legit starting SF, because the lack of a contingency plan last season cost Reggie and the rest of the team a shot at a title. They could do that via the draft, free agency, or trade. Its not like these guys totally sucked without him, his presence is significantly overstated.
    Good post.

    Yes, his presence is EXTREMELY overrated.

    A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, but with a basically healthy Artest(physically that is) lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2004.(Fact)

    A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, with no Ron Artest at all, lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2005.(Fact)

    We all know the guy is an amazing talent. Like Jay mentioned, he would dominate 1 on 1 play. But is antics are clearly "detrimental" to the team.

    I don't think his postseason history is anything to brag about at all. Paul Pierce lit this team up in 2003. It was one of the worst spectacles I have seen in Pacers playoff history. In 2004, the Celts were just total garbage. Ron didn't even play in one of those games because he was suspended(suprise, suprise). In crunch time in game 6 of 04 against Det, Ron lost his cool. In 2005, the Artest-less Pacers eliminated the Celtics.

    With a sane Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.

    Without Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.

    I don't think it's worth the risk to see if he can "mature" in the future. What in Ron's past makes you believe he will "mature"

    I just don't see how one player can be more important than the entire franchise. A player who was more concerned about his rap album last year than the team. A player who was ready to quit on the team. A player that claimed that he was the "number 1". Any team that put their franchise on Ron Artest's shoulders would be sunk. The guy can play, but he has no leadership whatsoever, and has caused trouble with his teammates.

    Again, I must emphazise that I know that Ron Artest has amazing basketball skills. But this isn't streetball in Rutgers Park(which I'm sure Ron could dominate in). This is a TEAM game, and Ron Artest's negatives clearly outweigh the positives, IMO.

    The Pacers would be fine if they could just get SOMETHING for him. If the Pacers hopes hinge on Artest, then something is terribly wrong.

  8. #58
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Good post.

    Yes, his presence is EXTREMELY overrated.

    A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, but with a basically healthy Artest(physically that is) lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2004.(Fact)

    A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, with no Ron Artest at all, lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2005.(Fact)

    We all know the guy is an amazing talent. Like Jay mentioned, he would dominate 1 on 1 play. But is antics are clearly "detrimental" to the team.

    I don't think his postseason history is anything to brag about at all. Paul Pierce lit this team up in 2003. It was one of the worst spectacles I have seen in Pacers playoff history. In 2004, the Celts were just total garbage. Ron didn't even play in one of those games because he was suspended(suprise, suprise). In crunch time in game 6 of 04 against Det, Ron lost his cool. In 2005, the Artest-less Pacers eliminated the Celtics.

    With a sane Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.

    Without Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.

    I don't think it's worth the risk to see if he can "mature" in the future. What in Ron's past makes you believe he will "mature"

    I just don't see how one player can be more important than the entire franchise. A player who was more concerned about his rap album last year than the team. A player who was ready to quit on the team. A player that claimed that he was the "number 1". Any team that put their franchise on Ron Artest's shoulders would be sunk. The guy can play, but he has no leadership whatsoever, and has caused trouble with his teammates.

    Again, I must emphazise that I know that Ron Artest has amazing basketball skills. But this isn't streetball in Rutgers Park(which I'm sure Ron could dominate in). This is a TEAM game, and Ron Artest's negatives clearly outweigh the positives, IMO.

    The Pacers would be fine if they could just get SOMETHING for him. If the Pacers hopes hinge on Artest, then something is terribly wrong.

    so much venom at such a young age....

    not sure what it is....but u certainly seem to have a great deal of negative emotion towards ron....what did he do to u???

    btw....there was no rap album....if ur gonna get on a soap box u probably should have ur facts straight.....i wont go into the rest of it....seems u just need to vent....get a good nites sleep...everything should be better in the morning

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    so much venom at such a young age....

    not sure what it is....but u certainly seem to have a great deal of negative emotion towards ron....what did he do to u???

    btw....there was no rap album....if ur gonna get on a soap box u probably should have ur facts straight.....i wont go into the rest of it....seems u just need to vent....get a good nites sleep...everything should be better in the morning

    I was under the impression that he had a rap album? Maybe I'm wrong?

    Ron didn't do anything to "me" personally, just as I'm guessing he has never done anything to any person that views this board.

    But he has done plenty of things that have been "detrimental to winning" over the past few years to tick me off as a Pacers fan. I get tickets for a few games every season. I buy their merchandise. I get my heart broken year after year as they make their inevitable journey to a tragic playoff loss. I earn the right to vent when I am not happy about the way the team is moving.

    I'm sure you should be well aware of the things Ron has done to tick some fans off.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I was under the impression that he had a rap album? Maybe I'm wrong?

    Ron didn't do anything to "me" personally, just as I'm guessing he has never done anything to any person that views this board.

    But he has done plenty of things that have been "detrimental to winning" over the past few years to tick me off as a Pacers fan. I get tickets for a few games every season. I buy their merchandise. I get my heart broken year after year as they make their inevitable journey to a tragic playoff loss. I earn the right to vent when I am not happy about the way the team is moving.

    I'm sure you should be well aware of the things Ron has done to tick some fans off.
    well i guess that i would expect a fan who wants to vent about such things to know a little more about what actually is going on....there was no rap album at all....he produced an R & B album from the female group Allure...

    it seems you are repeating alot of things uve read versus anything that is very original....

    if im gonna hate and vent about something id like to think id be damn sure about what i was so upset about to begin with...

    and btw...if uve been a pacers fan for the last 10 years i would tell u that very few franchises have had the success the pacers have had over the last 10...

    things could be much, much worse....think about it...u could live in atlanta...how u think it would be being a hawks fan....

    youre too young to exude such hate....cheer up...its basketball....and u dont even know the guy personally....if u did...ud probably have a much different take on things....remember....hes a human too....how would u feel if someone was saying the things u are saying about someone that doesnt know u...in fact that person is saying things that simply arent true about u...how would that feel?

  11. #61
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Jay, you and PFA are making arguments that I believe are crazy. Your theory that Ron's presense is overrated is nonsensical. If you want to argue that Ron can't be counted on or that he is a distraction. OK that is arguable, but to suggest that he is not that important is just crazy.

    PFA you seem to think that the series with the Pistons in 2004 was the same as 2005. Afterall they both ended in 6 games. So they must be the exact same. Pacers had a better chance in 2004. They were equal in talent, but just did not have the experience and togetherness that the Pistons had. In 2005, Pacers did not have the talent to beat the Pistons

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Using Detroit in this argument is something of a red herring IMO.

    There are teams that Ron Artest is devastating against and teams where he is almost irrelevant.

    I'll use two EC teams as examples:

    NJ - Ron makes a huge difference against NJ. He can lock down Jefferson who's a very big piece of their offense and is able to take him into the post and score (and get RJ in foul trouble) very effectively.

    Detroit - Ron doesn't matter that much against them. He can't defend Rip and while he slows Prince down, his length still gives him trouble and Detroit's a team that can compensate for any one player having a weak performance - plus Prince isn't a feature player on offense anyway. On offense Prince's length gives Ron big trouble and if he takes him into the post to use his strength, like he does vs Jefferson, Ben or Rasheed are waiting to swat the shot away.

    I'd say that against at least 20 NBA teams Ron's a huge factor, not so much against some others. If the only team you measured Ron's worth against was Detroit I agree that he may not seem that important but that's not the whole story.

    The real issue with Ron is what's between his ears. If he's sane, then what he gives you on the court is huge, and even huger related to his salary.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Jay, you and PFA are making arguments that I believe are crazy. Your theory that Ron's presense is overrated is nonsensical. If you want to argue that Ron can't be counted on or that he is a distraction. OK that is arguable, but to suggest that he is not that important is just crazy.

    PFA you seem to think that the series with the Pistons in 2004 was the same as 2005. Afterall they both ended in 6 games. So they must be the exact same. Pacers had a better chance in 2004. They were equal in talent, but just did not have the experience and togetherness that the Pistons had. In 2005, Pacers did not have the talent to beat the Pistons
    Sometime this summer, we'll re-visit your "x player means y wins" theory. I just happen to think that injuries to JO, Tinsley, Reggie & Foster had more to do with our decrease in wins and earlier playoff exit than Ron's suspensions.

    But we've both hinted that we need some time to re-charge before we get into that debate.

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  14. #64
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Jumping in here, I'd like to add that Artest came awful close to shutting down Wade in the series against Miami two years ago - well maybe not shutting him down, but he kept Wade from taking over. That's got to count for something valuable with Miami's resurgence, doesn't it?

    I'd be content, not happy (I don't want Artest gone), with:

    Odom
    Andre Igolulandalfmda
    Joe Johnson
    James Posey (rarely mentioned, but I think he'd be a really nice fit)

    NOT Paul Pierce (effort?), NOT Shawn Marion (would he fit with the teams style, unless we become a run and gun team?), NOT Stoackavic (I know it's spelled wrong).
    "If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy

  15. #65
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Jay, you and PFA are making arguments that I believe are crazy. Your theory that Ron's presense is overrated is nonsensical. If you want to argue that Ron can't be counted on or that he is a distraction. OK that is arguable, but to suggest that he is not that important is just crazy.

    PFA you seem to think that the series with the Pistons in 2004 was the same as 2005. Afterall they both ended in 6 games. So they must be the exact same. Pacers had a better chance in 2004. They were equal in talent, but just did not have the experience and togetherness that the Pistons had. In 2005, Pacers did not have the talent to beat the Pistons

    Not what you said back then. I clearly remember a post from you from that season where you said that Detroit was better than us & that included in the talent department. You were right then.

    What's changed now?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck
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    Well. I think this statement pretty well says it all about your feelings and it tells me Ron's last 2-3 years has absolutely no influence on your mindset.

    It also tells me what kind of a person you are and I really don't think I like what I see.


    Digs hole in sand. Sticks head in. NO mo problems with Ronnie!!

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Not what you said back then. I clearly remember a post from you from that season where you said that Detroit was better than us & that included in the talent department. You were right then.

    What's changed now?

    My memory is not as good as yours. But I don't remember saying that the Pistons had more talent than the Pacers in 2004. I don't think I ever posted that. I did post that they were the better team but for reasons other than talent. Their backcourt was better, experience was better, chemistry was better, toughness was better and that is why they won. Artest basically said the same thing on the BDSS Monday night.

    I remember before the series saying that Ron and J.O were the two best players in the series. Not sure that was correct, but I did say that

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Good post.

    Yes, his presence is EXTREMELY overrated.

    A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, but with a basically healthy Artest(physically that is) lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2004.(Fact)

    A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, with no Ron Artest at all, lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2005.(Fact)

    We all know the guy is an amazing talent. Like Jay mentioned, he would dominate 1 on 1 play. But is antics are clearly "detrimental" to the team.

    I don't think his postseason history is anything to brag about at all. Paul Pierce lit this team up in 2003. It was one of the worst spectacles I have seen in Pacers playoff history. In 2004, the Celts were just total garbage. Ron didn't even play in one of those games because he was suspended(suprise, suprise). In crunch time in game 6 of 04 against Det, Ron lost his cool. In 2005, the Artest-less Pacers eliminated the Celtics.

    With a sane Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.

    Without Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.

    I don't think it's worth the risk to see if he can "mature" in the future. What in Ron's past makes you believe he will "mature"

    I just don't see how one player can be more important than the entire franchise. A player who was more concerned about his rap album last year than the team. A player who was ready to quit on the team. A player that claimed that he was the "number 1". Any team that put their franchise on Ron Artest's shoulders would be sunk. The guy can play, but he has no leadership whatsoever, and has caused trouble with his teammates.

    Again, I must emphazise that I know that Ron Artest has amazing basketball skills. But this isn't streetball in Rutgers Park(which I'm sure Ron could dominate in). This is a TEAM game, and Ron Artest's negatives clearly outweigh the positives, IMO.

    The Pacers would be fine if they could just get SOMETHING for him. If the Pacers hopes hinge on Artest, then something is terribly wrong.
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    well i guess that i would expect a fan who wants to vent about such things to know a little more about what actually is going on....there was no rap album at all....he produced an R & B album from the female group Allure...

    it seems you are repeating alot of things uve read versus anything that is very original....

    if im gonna hate and vent about something id like to think id be damn sure about what i was so upset about to begin with...

    and btw...if uve been a pacers fan for the last 10 years i would tell u that very few franchises have had the success the pacers have had over the last 10...

    things could be much, much worse....think about it...u could live in atlanta...how u think it would be being a hawks fan....

    youre too young to exude such hate....cheer up...its basketball....and u dont even know the guy personally....if u did...ud probably have a much different take on things....remember....hes a human too....how would u feel if someone was saying the things u are saying about someone that doesnt know u...in fact that person is saying things that simply arent true about u...how would that feel?

    I'm pretty damn sure what I'm upset about. Ron went to Carlisle last year and said he wanted to retire. That's a fact. I'm upset that there's always something with Artest. Whether its the numerous suspensions in 02-03 for breaking cameras, flag fouls, etc.......or the suspension versus the Celts in 04. I think I know what I'm upset about.

    To my knowledge, no one on this board knows Artest personally. All any of us do is base our opinions on what we see on the basketball court. You are making bogus claims by stating that I am attacking Ron Artest personally.

    Ron Artest produced a Rap Album, right. That is what I was referring to. It is just as time consuming to be a producer as it is to be the actual rapper. It's his album to.

    Yes, I have been a Pacers fan 10 years. I couldn't imagine being anything other than a Pacers fan. I'm a PACERS fan, and the Pacers franchise is more important to me than any single player. Ron Artest, IMO, has wrecked the franchise's image over the past couple of years. I don't want someone on the Pacers that is asking for time off in November to promote a rap album. I don't want someone on the Pacers that is a liability in the locker room.

    Yes, like you said, things could be much, much worse. But they could also be much better. I could be a Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, Rockets, Pistons....Teams that have won titles over the past 10 years. Yes, the Pacers are a superior franchise to the Hawks, but at the end of the day, the Pacers don't have any rings over the past 10 years.

    The Pacers have 4 WORTHLESS Central Division Championships and 1 Eastern Conference Championship. You have to win a championship to be an elite franchise. You earn admiration amongst other franchises for winning a ring. Conference Championships are important to fans of the team that wins one, but in the eyes of the rest of the league, a ring is all that matters.

    Hopefully, I'll see one here in my lifetime.

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    My memory is not as good as yours. But I don't remember saying that the Pistons had more talent than the Pacers in 2004. I don't think I ever posted that. I did post that they were the better team but for reasons other than talent. Their backcourt was better, experience was better, chemistry was better, toughness was better and that is why they won. Artest basically said the same thing on the BDSS Monday night.

    I remember before the series saying that Ron and J.O were the two best players in the series. Not sure that was correct, but I did say that

    I'm referring to the post you made right after the trade. There was no way to know if thier chemistry was better because they hadn't played a single game yet.

    But let's give you the rest.

    I still ask, what has changed?

    How has our backcourt gotten better? How have we become tougher? How have we gotten more experiance?

    I'm not trying to be an @ss, I just want to know. If our shared goal is to get a title (which I know it is) then right now the # 1 obsticle in our way is the Pistons. How can we overcome the problems you just laid out (which I agree with)?


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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Jay, you and PFA are making arguments that I believe are crazy. Your theory that Ron's presense is overrated is nonsensical. If you want to argue that Ron can't be counted on or that he is a distraction. OK that is arguable, but to suggest that he is not that important is just crazy.

    PFA you seem to think that the series with the Pistons in 2004 was the same as 2005. Afterall they both ended in 6 games. So they must be the exact same. Pacers had a better chance in 2004. They were equal in talent, but just did not have the experience and togetherness that the Pistons had. In 2005, Pacers did not have the talent to beat the Pistons
    If we were healthy we COULD beat them now. Give us a player for Ron and we definately could.
    THere's nothing crazy about that.
    He IS vastly overrated by many here. I find NO other website with so much LOVE for this head case.

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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Jay, you and PFA are making arguments that I believe are crazy. Your theory that Ron's presense is overrated is nonsensical. If you want to argue that Ron can't be counted on or that he is a distraction. OK that is arguable, but to suggest that he is not that important is just crazy.

    PFA you seem to think that the series with the Pistons in 2004 was the same as 2005. Afterall they both ended in 6 games. So they must be the exact same. Pacers had a better chance in 2004. They were equal in talent, but just did not have the experience and togetherness that the Pistons had. In 2005, Pacers did not have the talent to beat the Pistons

    All I said was this.....In 2004, the Pacers lost to the Pistons in 6. In 2005, the Pacers lost to the Pistons in 6. That is an indisputable fact. That's all I said.

    In game 5 of 2004, the 3rd game at home in the series for the Pacers, they got beat pretty bad by Detroit.

    In game 6 of 2005, the 3rd game at home in the series for the Pacers, the Pacers had the lead at halftime, had a great chance to win the game and push it to a 7th deciding game at the Palace.

    I think that the Pacers chances of winning either series were equal in 2004 and 2005. The Pistons were the better team both years. I liked what I saw better from the 2005 Pacers team. IMO, I saw that Ron Artest was an expendable player, and if the Pacers trading him for something decent, they'd be fine in the future.

  23. #73
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    For those who just want to cut our losses and get something for him. Give me some names. How does Bonzi sound. Ron's trade value is low. If Ron is traded, I'll recover, but I'll be an *** as Ron cleans up his act and helps whatever team he goes to all the while the player we got is maybe the 6th best player on the team.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I'm pretty damn sure what I'm upset about. Ron went to Carlisle last year and said he wanted to retire. That's a fact.

    Maybe I'm taking your quote out of context, but it is not a fact that Ron ever said he wanted to retire. In fact we have articles, (Jay posted one yesterday) that does not mention retirement

    I don't believe for one minute that he said he wanted to retire. Take some time off, yes.

  25. #75
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I'm referring to the post you made right after the trade. There was no way to know if thier chemistry was better because they hadn't played a single game yet.

    But let's give you the rest.

    I still ask, what has changed?

    How has our backcourt gotten better? How have we become tougher? How have we gotten more experiance?

    I'm not trying to be an @ss, I just want to know. If our shared goal is to get a title (which I know it is) then right now the # 1 obsticle in our way is the Pistons. How can we overcome the problems you just laid out (which I agree with)?

    Oh, Ok, at the time of the trade, I forget what I said exactly. I could find the thread if you want me too, I might go find it because I'm a little curious now.

    Jax is an upgrade over Reggie. Tinsley if healthy is better than two years ago,. Fred Jones is better than two years ago. Jax can defend Rip better than the players we had in 2004.

    Our toughness and experience is better than 2004. Haven't I already posted this.

    You don't have to make changes to become better, but we have made changes anyway. Dale and Jax both help us agaisnt the Pistons


    Edit: here is the thread if anyone cares. I have not read the whole thread, but my first post does not discuss talent

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900

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