The guy I would consider trading Ron for is Ron's buddy Lamar Odom. I like Odom's passing game and his ability to play both forward positions. I think he would be a nice fit playing side-by-side with JO and Steve Jackson. I'd prefer Ron, but of all the Artest trades that have bounced around, I like an Odom trade best.
Ron and Bender work for Odom and the tall Eastern European.
Yes, his presence is EXTREMELY overrated.
A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, but with a basically healthy Artest(physically that is) lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2004.(Fact)
A Pacers team with a hobbled O'Neal and Tinsley, with no Ron Artest at all, lost to Detroit in 6 games in 2005.(Fact)
We all know the guy is an amazing talent. Like Jay mentioned, he would dominate 1 on 1 play. But is antics are clearly "detrimental" to the team.
I don't think his postseason history is anything to brag about at all. Paul Pierce lit this team up in 2003. It was one of the worst spectacles I have seen in Pacers playoff history. In 2004, the Celts were just total garbage. Ron didn't even play in one of those games because he was suspended(suprise, suprise). In crunch time in game 6 of 04 against Det, Ron lost his cool. In 2005, the Artest-less Pacers eliminated the Celtics.
With a sane Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.
Without Artest, I believe that the Pacers could eliminate any team in the east except the Heat and the Pistons.
I don't think it's worth the risk to see if he can "mature" in the future. What in Ron's past makes you believe he will "mature"
I just don't see how one player can be more important than the entire franchise. A player who was more concerned about his rap album last year than the team. A player who was ready to quit on the team. A player that claimed that he was the "number 1". Any team that put their franchise on Ron Artest's shoulders would be sunk. The guy can play, but he has no leadership whatsoever, and has caused trouble with his teammates.
Again, I must emphazise that I know that Ron Artest has amazing basketball skills. But this isn't streetball in Rutgers Park(which I'm sure Ron could dominate in). This is a TEAM game, and Ron Artest's negatives clearly outweigh the positives, IMO.
The Pacers would be fine if they could just get SOMETHING for him. If the Pacers hopes hinge on Artest, then something is terribly wrong.
so much venom at such a young age....
not sure what it is....but u certainly seem to have a great deal of negative emotion towards ron....what did he do to u???
btw....there was no rap album....if ur gonna get on a soap box u probably should have ur facts straight.....i wont go into the rest of it....seems u just need to vent....get a good nites sleep...everything should be better in the morning
I was under the impression that he had a rap album? Maybe I'm wrong?
Ron didn't do anything to "me" personally, just as I'm guessing he has never done anything to any person that views this board.
But he has done plenty of things that have been "detrimental to winning" over the past few years to tick me off as a Pacers fan. I get tickets for a few games every season. I buy their merchandise. I get my heart broken year after year as they make their inevitable journey to a tragic playoff loss. I earn the right to vent when I am not happy about the way the team is moving.
I'm sure you should be well aware of the things Ron has done to tick some fans off.
well i guess that i would expect a fan who wants to vent about such things to know a little more about what actually is going on....there was no rap album at all....he produced an R & B album from the female group Allure...
it seems you are repeating alot of things uve read versus anything that is very original....
if im gonna hate and vent about something id like to think id be damn sure about what i was so upset about to begin with...
and btw...if uve been a pacers fan for the last 10 years i would tell u that very few franchises have had the success the pacers have had over the last 10...
things could be much, much worse....think about it...u could live in atlanta...how u think it would be being a hawks fan....
youre too young to exude such hate....cheer up...its basketball....and u dont even know the guy personally....if u did...ud probably have a much different take on things....remember....hes a human too....how would u feel if someone was saying the things u are saying about someone that doesnt know u...in fact that person is saying things that simply arent true about u...how would that feel?
Jay, you and PFA are making arguments that I believe are crazy. Your theory that Ron's presense is overrated is nonsensical. If you want to argue that Ron can't be counted on or that he is a distraction. OK that is arguable, but to suggest that he is not that important is just crazy.
PFA you seem to think that the series with the Pistons in 2004 was the same as 2005. Afterall they both ended in 6 games. So they must be the exact same. Pacers had a better chance in 2004. They were equal in talent, but just did not have the experience and togetherness that the Pistons had. In 2005, Pacers did not have the talent to beat the Pistons
Using Detroit in this argument is something of a red herring IMO.
There are teams that Ron Artest is devastating against and teams where he is almost irrelevant.
I'll use two EC teams as examples:
NJ - Ron makes a huge difference against NJ. He can lock down Jefferson who's a very big piece of their offense and is able to take him into the post and score (and get RJ in foul trouble) very effectively.
Detroit - Ron doesn't matter that much against them. He can't defend Rip and while he slows Prince down, his length still gives him trouble and Detroit's a team that can compensate for any one player having a weak performance - plus Prince isn't a feature player on offense anyway. On offense Prince's length gives Ron big trouble and if he takes him into the post to use his strength, like he does vs Jefferson, Ben or Rasheed are waiting to swat the shot away.
I'd say that against at least 20 NBA teams Ron's a huge factor, not so much against some others. If the only team you measured Ron's worth against was Detroit I agree that he may not seem that important but that's not the whole story.
The real issue with Ron is what's between his ears. If he's sane, then what he gives you on the court is huge, and even huger related to his salary.
The poster formerly known as Rimfire
Sometime this summer, we'll re-visit your "x player means y wins" theory. I just happen to think that injuries to JO, Tinsley, Reggie & Foster had more to do with our decrease in wins and earlier playoff exit than Ron's suspensions.
But we've both hinted that we need some time to re-charge before we get into that debate.
Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you
Jumping in here, I'd like to add that Artest came awful close to shutting down Wade in the series against Miami two years ago - well maybe not shutting him down, but he kept Wade from taking over. That's got to count for something valuable with Miami's resurgence, doesn't it?
I'd be content, not happy (I don't want Artest gone), with:
James Posey (rarely mentioned, but I think he'd be a really nice fit)
NOT Paul Pierce (effort?), NOT Shawn Marion (would he fit with the teams style, unless we become a run and gun team?), NOT Stoackavic (I know it's spelled wrong).
"If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy
Not what you said back then. I clearly remember a post from you from that season where you said that Detroit was better than us & that included in the talent department. You were right then.
What's changed now?
My memory is not as good as yours. But I don't remember saying that the Pistons had more talent than the Pacers in 2004. I don't think I ever posted that. I did post that they were the better team but for reasons other than talent. Their backcourt was better, experience was better, chemistry was better, toughness was better and that is why they won. Artest basically said the same thing on the BDSS Monday night.
I remember before the series saying that Ron and J.O were the two best players in the series. Not sure that was correct, but I did say that
I'm pretty damn sure what I'm upset about. Ron went to Carlisle last year and said he wanted to retire. That's a fact. I'm upset that there's always something with Artest. Whether its the numerous suspensions in 02-03 for breaking cameras, flag fouls, etc.......or the suspension versus the Celts in 04. I think I know what I'm upset about.
To my knowledge, no one on this board knows Artest personally. All any of us do is base our opinions on what we see on the basketball court. You are making bogus claims by stating that I am attacking Ron Artest personally.
Ron Artest produced a Rap Album, right. That is what I was referring to. It is just as time consuming to be a producer as it is to be the actual rapper. It's his album to.
Yes, I have been a Pacers fan 10 years. I couldn't imagine being anything other than a Pacers fan. I'm a PACERS fan, and the Pacers franchise is more important to me than any single player. Ron Artest, IMO, has wrecked the franchise's image over the past couple of years. I don't want someone on the Pacers that is asking for time off in November to promote a rap album. I don't want someone on the Pacers that is a liability in the locker room.
Yes, like you said, things could be much, much worse. But they could also be much better. I could be a Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, Rockets, Pistons....Teams that have won titles over the past 10 years. Yes, the Pacers are a superior franchise to the Hawks, but at the end of the day, the Pacers don't have any rings over the past 10 years.
The Pacers have 4 WORTHLESS Central Division Championships and 1 Eastern Conference Championship. You have to win a championship to be an elite franchise. You earn admiration amongst other franchises for winning a ring. Conference Championships are important to fans of the team that wins one, but in the eyes of the rest of the league, a ring is all that matters.
Hopefully, I'll see one here in my lifetime.
I'm referring to the post you made right after the trade. There was no way to know if thier chemistry was better because they hadn't played a single game yet.
But let's give you the rest.
I still ask, what has changed?
How has our backcourt gotten better? How have we become tougher? How have we gotten more experiance?
I'm not trying to be an @ss, I just want to know. If our shared goal is to get a title (which I know it is) then right now the # 1 obsticle in our way is the Pistons. How can we overcome the problems you just laid out (which I agree with)?
If we were healthy we COULD beat them now. Give us a player for Ron and we definately could.
THere's nothing crazy about that.
He IS vastly overrated by many here. I find NO other website with so much LOVE for this head case.
All I said was this.....In 2004, the Pacers lost to the Pistons in 6. In 2005, the Pacers lost to the Pistons in 6. That is an indisputable fact. That's all I said.
In game 5 of 2004, the 3rd game at home in the series for the Pacers, they got beat pretty bad by Detroit.
In game 6 of 2005, the 3rd game at home in the series for the Pacers, the Pacers had the lead at halftime, had a great chance to win the game and push it to a 7th deciding game at the Palace.
I think that the Pacers chances of winning either series were equal in 2004 and 2005. The Pistons were the better team both years. I liked what I saw better from the 2005 Pacers team. IMO, I saw that Ron Artest was an expendable player, and if the Pacers trading him for something decent, they'd be fine in the future.
For those who just want to cut our losses and get something for him. Give me some names. How does Bonzi sound. Ron's trade value is low. If Ron is traded, I'll recover, but I'll be an *** as Ron cleans up his act and helps whatever team he goes to all the while the player we got is maybe the 6th best player on the team.
Maybe I'm taking your quote out of context, but it is not a fact that Ron ever said he wanted to retire. In fact we have articles, (Jay posted one yesterday) that does not mention retirement
I don't believe for one minute that he said he wanted to retire. Take some time off, yes.
Oh, Ok, at the time of the trade, I forget what I said exactly. I could find the thread if you want me too, I might go find it because I'm a little curious now.
Jax is an upgrade over Reggie. Tinsley if healthy is better than two years ago,. Fred Jones is better than two years ago. Jax can defend Rip better than the players we had in 2004.
Our toughness and experience is better than 2004. Haven't I already posted this.
You don't have to make changes to become better, but we have made changes anyway. Dale and Jax both help us agaisnt the Pistons
Edit: here is the thread if anyone cares. I have not read the whole thread, but my first post does not discuss talent