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Thread: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

  1. #126
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC
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    Watching him play in the Bay Area.....he is not very good if he is relied on to be a starter. But as a backup SF....DunDun would be a pretty solid backup player....even a good fit as a 6th man. He would be a good offensive punch off the bench if given 20+ minutes a game.

    You just have to ignore that he is completely lost on the defensive end. But if we got used to that with Croshere...then we can get used to it with DunDun.
    i couldnt agree more...hes at best a 6th man....to contemplate him as a starter when we have one of the top 2 small forwards in the game is just something i want no part of....

    there is no way you go from one of the best to a quality backup and be as good....certainly not with this team....

    like i said...u go from instant title contender to instant also ran...

  2. #127
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i couldnt agree more...hes at best a 6th man....to contemplate him as a starter when we have one of the top 2 small forwards in the game is just something i want no part of....

    there is no way you go from one of the best to a quality backup and be as good....certainly not with this team....

    like i said...u go from instant title contender to instant also ran...
    in one move we become the clippers...

  3. #128
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Wow, that was crazy.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  4. #129
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    Wow, that was crazy.
    Yeah I know, who the heck talks to themselves nowadays?
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  5. #130
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    Yeah I know, who the heck talks to themselves nowadays?
    Exactly what I was thinking!
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  6. #131
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    :finger:

  7. #132
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    in one move we become the clippers...

    Ok, that tears it right there.

    Uncle Buck you have now officially been outdone. You don't need that break to go recharge your batterys because you are now officially normal.

    This post by Fortaz just summed up, in 7 words, what he truely thinks of the Pacers.

    People do you understand he just said if we remove Ron Artest & replace him with a 13 ppg scorer we will be the L.A. Clippers, not to mention he called us also rans.

    You've just proven that you are first & formost a Ron Artest fan. I hate to break the news to you but the Pacers lost Ron Artest this season & got nothing in return & we were not also rans or the Clippers.

    Suaveness wouldn't even go this far & he would go pretty far. Hell, you realize you are making U.B. sit at home right now & disagree with you about Ron Artest. Because even he wouldn't say this.

    I can't beleive you just said this....

    Or am I misunderstanding you?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  8. #133
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Two Points:

    1. I find it hilarious that people grant that Artest's trade value is low ie. he is currently rated fairly lowly by opposing GM's, yet continue trumpet his cause as if they know better.

    2. Some maybe argumentative, however I am concerned more for those whom whittle away their days combing message boards for anything which maybe critical of Ron Artest. Tired after the Cold War? May I suggest applying for work in China? We here at Pacersdigest have perhaps the greatest collection of censors ever seen.

    - oh and as I guess this may be interpreted as somewhat critical of the unchecked cult of the Artest I assume there must be something wrong with me; how dare I dispute anyones opinion...

    brb better make sure my picture of Mao is hung straight
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  9. #134
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, that tears it right there.

    Uncle Buck you have now officially been outdone. You don't need that break to go recharge your batterys because you are now officially normal.

    This post by Fortaz just summed up, in 7 words, what he truely thinks of the Pacers.

    People do you understand he just said if we remove Ron Artest & replace him with a 13 ppg scorer we will be the L.A. Clippers, not to mention he called us also rans.

    You've just proven that you are first & formost a Ron Artest fan. I hate to break the news to you but the Pacers lost Ron Artest this season & got nothing in return & we were not also rans or the Clippers.

    Suaveness wouldn't even go this far & he would go pretty far. Hell, you realize you are making U.B. sit at home right now & disagree with you about Ron Artest. Because even he wouldn't say this.

    I can't beleive you just said this....

    Or am I misunderstanding you?
    actually, while i might be exaggerating a bit, its not so farfetched....the clippers have a great power forward in brand-we have jo....they have a very talented point guard in livingston...we would have jt...

    after that....what? nothing all that special....and please dont tell me mike dunleavy...as has since been discussed....he would make a good sixth man...

    steven jackson would be a good six man on many teams as well....

    center is our deepest yet least talented position....

    as i said....a starting lineup of

    dale
    jo
    dunleavy
    jackson
    jt

    is not gonna inspire fear into too many people...

    yes...the bench is decent...not much consolance if ur starting 5 cant beat many teams though....im sure our great coaching staff would find a way to get that team into the playoffs...



    my point really is this....that team has zero shot at winning a title none...as do the clippers...i have zero desire to struggle into the playoffs with an assured 1st round loss just because of a dislike for a certain player....

    and if u think that starting five has any better chance at winning a title than the clipper, then i would be disappointed....i would say the clippers starting 5 might very well be more talented with maggette...but it really doesnt matter...

    neither team would stand a chance to win a title...

  10. #135
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    But yet change one player & we are instant title contenders????

    If that is your contention then you are saying that Ron Artest is the single most important player on our team, hell maybe the entire NBA.

    You obviously think very little of Jermaine O'neal, btw you may be right there I'm not sure.

    You obvously don't think very much of Jamaal Tinsley. I happen to think very highly of Jamaal but don't trust him myself.

    You obviously don't think very much about Jackson, oh wait you already said that so I guess that makes sense. I disagree with you on this one but reasonble people can disagree.

    You don't think much of our centers. Ok, I won't disagree much with you here.

    But I do NOT believe that Ron Artest, all by himself, determines if we are the champions or not.

    Now let me ask you a question.

    Since you obviously don't beleive that Jermaine O'Neal is a franchise player, I mean how can you if you beleive that a player not named Jermaine O'Neal carries our team, do you think it was a mistake to give him that max. contract?

    Second part to that question. Do you think the Pacers would have been better off letting J.O. walk or maybe doing a sign & trade and in turn re-sign Brad Miller for less money & focusing soley on Ron Artest as the franchise?

    I don't think I made that last point very clear so let me try to simplify. Instead of giving J.O. that huge deal, should they have let him go & gotten a couple other complimentry players to go around Ron & keep Brad with him?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  11. #136
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    ill say this....cause i think there might be just a bit of confusion...then ill get to the post u just made....

    i think jo and ron artest are equally valuable to this team....

    if u take either one of them off this team and replace them with a sixth man quality player such a dunleavy, we are nothing special....sorry if someone has a problem with that....

    many teams have one great player....what separates the very good teams are the ones that have two great players....

    champions typically have 3 great players...

    if u trade jo for lets say....kurt thomas....

    the result is the same.....

    u gotta have two studs...u just got too...to have any real chance....we have a lot of decent guys.....but not many studs....we have guys that can be pretty damn good when jo and ron are a part of the mix....u take one out and they struggle at best....and this past season should pretty much point that out....

    but most importantly...i come back to this same thing....

    if u take either one of them off the team and replace them with anything that is a noticeable dropoff.....they no longer have a shot at the title...

  12. #137
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But yet change one player & we are instant title contenders????

    If that is your contention then you are saying that Ron Artest is the single most important player on our team, hell maybe the entire NBA.

    You obviously think very little of Jermaine O'neal, btw you may be right there I'm not sure.

    You obvously don't think very much of Jamaal Tinsley. I happen to think very highly of Jamaal but don't trust him myself.

    You obviously don't think very much about Jackson, oh wait you already said that so I guess that makes sense. I disagree with you on this one but reasonble people can disagree.

    You don't think much of our centers. Ok, I won't disagree much with you here.

    But I do NOT believe that Ron Artest, all by himself, determines if we are the champions or not.

    Now let me ask you a question.

    Since you obviously don't beleive that Jermaine O'Neal is a franchise player, I mean how can you if you beleive that a player not named Jermaine O'Neal carries our team, do you think it was a mistake to give him that max. contract?

    Second part to that question. Do you think the Pacers would have been better off letting J.O. walk or maybe doing a sign & trade and in turn re-sign Brad Miller for less money & focusing soley on Ron Artest as the franchise?

    I don't think I made that last point very clear so let me try to simplify. Instead of giving J.O. that huge deal, should they have let him go & gotten a couple other complimentry players to go around Ron & keep Brad with him?

    The JO question is a tough question to answer.

    When A player takes a max contract, it means alot more than on the court production. When you accept a max contract, you are indirectly saying that you are ready to be the leader of the team on and off the court.

    2 years after the signing, has JO done that? No, IMO.

    I like having JO on this team, but not at this price. JO is making a tad bit more than Duncan, because believe it or not, JO has been in the league a year longer. Duncan is the epitome of a leader.

    That's where it gets tricky. If the Pacers would have offered JO anything less than the max, I believe he would have had his bags packed for SA in a heartbeat.

    I think that JO was really ready for the 2004-2005 season. I was so glad that he didn't participate in the Olympics. He was in great shape coming into the season. I'll never forget how good he played the weekend before 11/19, getting 30 something points against both Philly and New York.

    Talent wise he is worth the max, but leadership wise so far he is not.

  13. #138
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    The JO question is a tough question to answer.

    When I player takes a max contract, it means alot more than on the court production. When you accept a max contract, you are indirectly saying that you are ready to be the leader of the team on and off the court.

    2 years after the signing, has JO done that? No, IMO.

    I like having JO on this team, but not at this price. JO is making a tad bit more than Duncan, because believe it or not, JO has been in the league a year longer. Duncan is the epitome of a leader.

    That's where it gets tricky. If the Pacers would have offered JO anything less than the max, I believe he would have had his bags packed for SA in a heartbeat.

    I think that JO was really ready for the 2004-2005 season. I was so glad that he didn't participate in the Olympics. He was in great shape coming into the season. I'll never forget how good he played the weekend before 11/19, getting 30 something points against both Philly and New York.

    Talent wise he is worth the max, but leadership wise so far he is not.
    PFA....this is what im talking about....this is a good post....im not saying i agree with it all....but its a very good post....

    its quite obvious uve told us how u feel and then u told us why....i like that...

    for what its worth....well done....

  14. #139
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    PFA....this is what im talking about....this is a good post....im not saying i agree with it all....but its a very good post....

    its quite obvious uve told us how u feel and then u told us why....i like that...

    for what its worth....well done....

    Thanks for the compliment. Soon I will try to lay out a more personal post about how I feel about Artest.

  15. #140
    foretaz
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But yet change one player & we are instant title contenders????

    If that is your contention then you are saying that Ron Artest is the single most important player on our team, hell maybe the entire NBA.

    You obviously think very little of Jermaine O'neal, btw you may be right there I'm not sure.

    You obvously don't think very much of Jamaal Tinsley. I happen to think very highly of Jamaal but don't trust him myself.

    You obviously don't think very much about Jackson, oh wait you already said that so I guess that makes sense. I disagree with you on this one but reasonble people can disagree.

    You don't think much of our centers. Ok, I won't disagree much with you here.

    But I do NOT believe that Ron Artest, all by himself, determines if we are the champions or not.

    Now let me ask you a question.

    Since you obviously don't beleive that Jermaine O'Neal is a franchise player, I mean how can you if you beleive that a player not named Jermaine O'Neal carries our team, do you think it was a mistake to give him that max. contract?

    Second part to that question. Do you think the Pacers would have been better off letting J.O. walk or maybe doing a sign & trade and in turn re-sign Brad Miller for less money & focusing soley on Ron Artest as the franchise?

    I don't think I made that last point very clear so let me try to simplify. Instead of giving J.O. that huge deal, should they have let him go & gotten a couple other complimentry players to go around Ron & keep Brad with him?
    ok...lemme see if i can address this the best way i know how...

    i mentioned a bit earlier...the formula for winning a championship seems pretty consistent....

    u have to have 2 studs....2 guys that truly impact the game, in most cases, on both ends....shaq, kobe....duncan, robinson...duncan, ginoboli....rip/r. wallace....etc. etc.

    then you have to have some very good players around them that end up being very good complements or role players whatever u like....and these guys definitely have to bring special skills to the party, usually dependent on the two studs and whats the best way to complement the two studs....any champion has this...detroit has it with billups, b. wallace, and tay-who is a stud in training as far as im concerned....they have dice off the bench....all very good players...actually, maybe a little better than what u have to have, but then their dropoff is dramatic after that, so they have quality over quantity....in their case u might be able to have a little less quality and a little more quantity-but their studs arent quite what others are, so its definitely a good mix for that team...

    jo and ron are those studs on this team....and we happen to have quite a few very good players to surround them with...maybe even more than we need at this point....however, if u take one of the two studs off, and replace them with another very good player, it wont work....then our chances are about as good as i mentioned , the clippers, of winning the title...it just wont happen....you got to have the two...i think very highly of jt, jack and many of the other guys....but none of them are studs...and never will be....the only one that had the potential was bender, and we know what happened there, though i cant help but hope....and if u did replace artest with a dunleavy type, then bender would be our best shot at a second stud-and i really dont like the sounds of that at this point.....

    the point is u cant lose ur studs....not without getting one in return....look at what happened to the lakers...and please dont tell me odom is a stud...because hes not...

    almost without exception, any time a stud has been traded for a group of very ,very good players-but not studs-the team getting the stud gets better and the other team gets worse....

    if we wouldve been having the discussion a couple of years ago, id be saying the same things about jo that i am about artest....you just cant lose him....and in this day and age u almost always have to pay the studs the max...cause everyone wants them and someone will find a way to get them the max....jo might not be the leader he should be yet...but i believe he will be....i believe we will see him grow now that reggie is gone....but hes still young and there will be hiccups along the way

    this is what is so unique about artest...hes one of the few studs that doesnt require the max....that is potentially a huge huge plus...because it can possibly enable u to have another stud...or probably even better, a couple more very , very good players....and as a sidenote, a reason why ultimately we might be wise to consider an offense that looks to push it a little more as we could potentially maximize our better depth....

    hopefully its clear....this is probably the real reason i shudder when thinking of getting rid of ron artest....i like ron...yes....but i could live with him being gone if it makes the pacers better....but with his perceived value being what it is.....his value is far greater to us....because without a second stud we are on the outside looking in at the championship....

    i like the flexibility his contract provides from a team standpoint....i tend to be a firm believer where theres a will theres a way....id be getting all the professional help i could for him....realizing it will help as will maturing with age....id also be doing anything and everything possible to make sure the team can have the kind of chemistry required to make it work....i think jo might possibly have a bit different viewpoint now-that is to say he might realize just how important it is to have ron on the team if he wants to win a championship.....i think a great deal of jo as a person...i think he can get that...sooner or later....these guys are still young....not an excuse just a fact...i think of reggie alot and how long it was for him to mature....25 is still 25 i dont care how long u are in the league....and duncan is a freak by many differnt standards....they just dont come like him....

    you have to get jo and ron together....u have too....yea shaq and kobe won titles...but as we see it didnt last....so maybe that happens here....but i believe that unlike shaq and kobe that ron and jo are better people than the two of them...especially when it comes to kobe....i believe neither ron nor jo have the ego that kobe does....so i believe it is possible to have them come together...i truly do...it might not be easy...but i have a feeling the two of them not having each other on the court this year might adjust their thinking a bit.....

    if the other players have a problem with this....then ship em out...its that simple....they can be much more easily replaced than the studs...but if the two studs get on the same page and lead the team together, the others will almost assuredly follow....

    this team is close....if jo and ron can find a way to find a common ground....and if harrison can find a way to live up to his talent....then let me be the first to tell u....this team will win multiple titles over the next 5-10 years.....

    if one of the studs is dealt....and another one is not brought in....it will be a very very long time....at least as long as it takes to get another stud...problem is ...by that time....jo might not be the stud he is now...in which case we would need two....thus the problems that exist for most of the teams in the nba....

    we give up one of our studs for a couple good players....we give up our advantage....which in this game means ur playing against a stacked deck.....i did that for twenty years....i like being on the inside looking out.....i dont want to give it up....

  16. #141
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Thanks for the compliment. Soon I will try to lay out a more personal post about how I feel about Artest.
    Dance, boy, dance!

  17. #142
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    I had this crazy idea. What if PFA had simply said "I choose to agree with someone I felt made a good point"? Nah. The world's not ready for that kind of thing.

  18. #143
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    I had this crazy idea. What if PFA had simply said "I choose to agree with someone I felt made a good point"? Nah. The world's not ready for that kind of thing.

    And that's basically what it is. Jay and Peck are 2 of the best writers on this forum, and they made such excellent points, I really didn't have much to add.

    I can understand that Foretaz wanted me to "personalize" my thoughts.

  19. #144
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Ehmmm.... IF we lose Artest, but get Dunleavy we do go down scarely close Clipperlevel, CERTAINLY now that Reggie is not here anymore to bail us out like he did quite a few times this season .

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  20. #145

    Default Re: If Ron were inevitably going to be traded...

    Ron Artest is the most talented player on this team. He's just had a season which will force him to consider his life and his future for the first time in his life. He's also had the equivalent of 3 consecutive off-seasons to work on his conditioning and skill set. Ron Artest barely has positive trade value at this point. If you trade him, you will get rubbish back. The only reason you trade him, at this point, is if he's a chemistry problem, which every Pacers player will tell you is untrue.

    At this point, the prudent move is to take a wait-and-see approach, and hope for the best. The better move, if we're talking about risky trades that might make us worse, would be to ask Ron who he would be willing to play 2nd banana to, and then trade JO for THAT superstar (Garnett?).

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