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Thread: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

  1. #1
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Senate panel votes to expand Patriot Act

    Forget scaling back the Patriot Act.

    Instead, the controversial post-9/11 law would be expanded to give the FBI new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, according to a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee.

    The final text of the Senate Intelligence committee's amendments was not immediately available (here's a draft dated last month), and reporters were barred from the secret session during which the vote was held.

    But the proposal appears to grant the FBI more power to seek information from banks, hospitals, libraries, and so on through "administrative subpoenas" without prior judicial oversight. The subpoenas are only supposed to be used for terrorism or clandestine intelligence cases.

    One other detail: the FBI may designate that the subpoenas are secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison (and five years if the disclosure is deemed to "obstruct an investigation.")

    In testimony in April, FBI director Robert Mueller said: "The administrative subpoena power would be a valuable complement to (existing) tools and provide added efficiency to the FBI's ability to investigate and disrupt terrorism operations and our intelligence gathering efforts."

    The ACLU denounced the Senate Intelligence committee's vote. "In a move antithetical to our Constitution, the new 'administrative subpoena' authority would let the FBI write and approve its own search orders for intelligence investigations, without prior judicial approval," the group said in a statement. "Americans have a reasonable expectation that their federal government will not gather records about their health, their wealth and the transactions of their daily life without probable cause of a crime and without a court order."

    In theory, the expand-the-Patriot-Act bill now goes to the Senate floor for a vote. But some negotiations are likely to take place between the Intelligence and Judiciary committee, and that could affect the final form of the legislation.
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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Welcome to the wicked world of a "Police State"
    What you are seeing here is called a coup without arms.
    If this goes through, which is VERY likely, your rights just went out of the window, your "counter-balance" with the judicial system went out of the window and only Orson Welles can think of the next step.

    I am totally amazed that the people of the USA accept this without any struggle or protest whatsoever.

    Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said:
    They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.


    and while quoting anyway:

    As a rule, dictatorships guarantee safe streets and terror of the doorbell. In democracy the streets may be unsafe after dark, but the most likely visitor in the early hours will be the milkman.
    Adam Michnik
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    I am totally amazed that the people of the USA accept this without any struggle or protest whatsoever.
    The regular Joe on the street doesn't even know about this. I don't know if people don't care or just don't pay attention.

    When I talk to people about things like this(the patriot act, etc.), their eyes just glaze over, and most of them just tell me that they are willing to give up freedom for protection.

    “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” - George Santayana

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    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    Welcome to the wicked world of a "Police State"
    What you are seeing here is called a coup without arms.
    If this goes through, which is VERY likely, your rights just went out of the window, your "counter-balance" with the judicial system went out of the window and only Orson Welles can think of the next step.

    I am totally amazed that the people of the USA accept this without any struggle or protest whatsoever.

    Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said:
    They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.


    and while quoting anyway:

    As a rule, dictatorships guarantee safe streets and terror of the doorbell. In democracy the streets may be unsafe after dark, but the most likely visitor in the early hours will be the milkman.
    Adam Michnik
    Our rights have been continually eroding since the formation of this country. The 14th Amendment. The 16th Amendment. The Patriot Act. The Terry Shiavo case was alarming as well. It just keeps on keeping on, if you know what I mean. And as Manual said, people just accept it like lambs to the slaughter. Our founding fathers would be appalled at the current state of our government. Appalled. But it was inevitable because money and power corrupts.

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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    It makes me sick. With the left we get a nanny/police state and with the right we get a slightly different police state. I am sick of both of them. What happened to protecting the constitution, what happened to being a capitalist/civil libertarian? Free market AND free society not one without the other.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Senate panel votes to expand Patriot Act

    Forget scaling back the Patriot Act.

    Instead, the controversial post-9/11 law would be expanded to give the FBI new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, according to a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee.

    The final text of the Senate Intelligence committee's amendments was not immediately available (here's a draft dated last month), and reporters were barred from the secret session during which the vote was held.

    But the proposal appears to grant the FBI more power to seek information from banks, hospitals, libraries, and so on through "administrative subpoenas" without prior judicial oversight. The subpoenas are only supposed to be used for terrorism or clandestine intelligence cases.

    One other detail: the FBI may designate that the subpoenas are secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison (and five years if the disclosure is deemed to "obstruct an investigation.")

    In testimony in April, FBI director Robert Mueller said: "The administrative subpoena power would be a valuable complement to (existing) tools and provide added efficiency to the FBI's ability to investigate and disrupt terrorism operations and our intelligence gathering efforts."

    The ACLU denounced the Senate Intelligence committee's vote. "In a move antithetical to our Constitution, the new 'administrative subpoena' authority would let the FBI write and approve its own search orders for intelligence investigations, without prior judicial approval," the group said in a statement. "Americans have a reasonable expectation that their federal government will not gather records about their health, their wealth and the transactions of their daily life without probable cause of a crime and without a court order."

    In theory, the expand-the-Patriot-Act bill now goes to the Senate floor for a vote. But some negotiations are likely to take place between the Intelligence and Judiciary committee, and that could affect the final form of the legislation.
    Well leave it to me to be the one dissenter on this.

    I have no problem with what I read above. Now before everyone goes all postal on me let me say that if I understand this right this would go through the section of the F.B.I. that is dedicated to counter intellegence which has thier own court appointed judge within thier ranks. Yes, he is an employee of the justice department but he is still a duly licened sitting federal judge.

    BTW, this office has been around since WW2. It is the same office that brought you the capture of the 9 Nazi spys on our soil.

    Yes, there is always the fear that the gov. will overstep it bounds. But this office has been in place for 60 years & all that I see is that they are giving them the right to make it so that a physcian cannot use his office to conduct terrorist activities from. Which they could today by using the health privacy act.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  7. #7
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Yes, there is always the fear that the gov. will overstep it bounds. But this office has been in place for 60 years & all that I see is that they are giving them the right to make it so that a physcian cannot use his office to conduct terrorist activities from. Which they could today by using the health privacy act.
    Did it overstep its bounds with the Terry Shiavo case?

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    this would go through the section of the F.B.I. that is dedicated to counter intellegence which has thier own court appointed judge within thier ranks. Yes, he is an employee of the justice department but he is still a duly licened sitting federal judge.
    Where are you getting that? The article explicitly says it won't get judicial oversight. If they're already doing it, then what's the point of pushing for the law?

    And I don't see how you could possibly defend the part I bolded.
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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Did it overstep its bounds with the Terry Shiavo case?

    Federal gov.? Probably.

    Local & state gov.? Probably not.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Where are you getting that? The article explicitly says it won't get judicial oversight. If they're already doing it, then what's the point of pushing for the law?

    And I don't see how you could possibly defend the part I bolded.
    Beleive it or not I got that from the History channel on Sunday night. They had a program on called "who's watching you" or something like that & they went over the department that I was talking about.

    BTW, before I respond to much more to this I need to know something. Is the first part you posted your thoughts or is this an article you copyed?

    If it's your thought it's one thing but if it's an article it's totally something else because of the way it is written.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Beleive it or not I got that from the History channel on Sunday night. They had a program on called "who's watching you" or something like that & they went over the department that I was talking about.

    BTW, before I respond to much more to this I need to know something. Is the first part you posted your thoughts or is this an article you copyed?

    If it's your thought it's one thing but if it's an article it's totally something else because of the way it is written.
    The first post is verbatim from the link.

    The rest of the question stands, though. If they're already doing this, then there's only a couple ways it could play out.
    1. Their current practice is illegal now and they want it to be legal (not a good situation).
    2. Their current practice is already legal and they want... what, exactly? (no need for new legislation).
    3. ?
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  12. #12
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    I don't ever really pay attention to this stuff, but just glancing at this, I really hate it.


    I just don't understand why it is all of a sudden necessary to fork over our rights like this, in the name of 'protection.'

    I don't really know the term for it, but this reminds me of the man who never takes a risk for fear of failure, or stays in a bubble for fear of germs.

    Eh, good thing I'm too young to vote. I'm pretty ignorant.



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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    The first post is verbatim from the link.

    The rest of the question stands, though. If they're already doing this, then there's only a couple ways it could play out.
    1. Their current practice is illegal now and they want it to be legal (not a good situation).
    2. Their current practice is already legal and they want... what, exactly? (no need for new legislation).
    3. ?
    I would like to have seen a link on this. No offense but this just appears to have been written by someone who already had thier mind made up about the act to begin with & was not just conveying facts.

    I know don't discount the thoughts because of who wrote it, but it still just seemed wierd to me that they used a lot of vague terms. That's why at first I though you had written it, which would have been fine btw because you would have been writing your opinions on the issue. But if that was a reporter????

    Anyway to your question. Since the reporter didn't actually list the new powers, just assumptions I will say this.

    It is probably answer # 2 & this allows them to now legally skirt the Healt Information Patient Privacy Act (More commonly known as HIPPA) that was enacted about 5 years ago (give or take a year).

    The problem is that terroist are using Doctors offices to organize & operate
    terror cells. All they would theoretically have to do is put directions in a "patient chart" & the only people who would be allowed to see it is the Patient & thier physician & his staff (those he allows to see it)

    Again, I'm not saying that it's ok to just do this to anyone. But foreign nationals on our soil who the gov. suspects of terror operations, sorry I'm just not going to worry to much about that.

    Yes, yes I know it could be any of us. But it's just to easy sometimes for all of us to forget that we are at war because it does not affect us on a daily basis in our lives. The gov. has to deal with this every day & I just don't have the problem that you guys do with them taking steps to protect us.

    The way this is done, at least the way they showed it was done, was that before it is ever given to this group it has to clear the justice departements review & then the federal court is appointed to the case for immediate review.

    However I certainly understand why you guys are cautious about this.

    If you don't mind, could you post the link if you still have it?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney06022005.html

    Warrants and Searches Without Judges

    Post-Mortem on the 4th Amendment

    By MIKE WHITNEY

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    - The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America
    The Senate Intelligence Committee is working behind closed doors to expand the powers of the Patriot Act and deliver another withering blow to the 4th amendment. This time the constitutional broadside comes in the form of "administrative subpoenas"; an Orwellian expression which indicates that law enforcement agencies, like the FBI, will be able to circumvent the courts to subpoena records. To understand the breadth of this new classification, we need to grasp the basic inconsistency in the terminology itself.

    "Administrative subpoena" is a contradiction in terms, since a subpoena is a writ issued by a court and presumes judicial oversight. To confer this very explicit (legal) power on the FBI confuses the meaning of the language and implies that FBI agents can act as their own judge. It is the Bush administration's way of pummeling the judiciary while providing law enforcement with the power to interpret the 4th amendment however it sees fit.

    The officious sounding "administrative subpoena" is clearly the work of right wing think-tanks; probably the Federalist Society. Many of the Society's members are high-ranking officials in the Justice Dept. and have helped to shape the language and rationale for the increased powers of the executive, the diminished powers of the court, the savaging of the constitution, the text of the Patriot Act, and the justification for torture.

    Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts is the administration's "go-to" guy in the Senate. He played a major role in suppressing information in both the 9-11 investigation and the investigation of the intelligence failures leading up to the Iraq war. His task now is to convince reluctant members on the committee that the FBI needs this new regressive legislation to "get information faster in national security investigations."

    Robert's knows as well as anyone that the subpoenas will not be limited to national security investigations, but will be used on routine criminal investigations or "fishing expeditions" on political enemies. If the law passes, we can expect that members of politically active anti-war, environmental and civil liberties groups will have their private records (medical, dental, credit, library, tax etc) investigated without the slightest indication of criminal wrongdoing. Probable cause will be a thing of the past.

    The range of the Patriot Act expanded dramatically under Ashcroft. The former Attorney General even boasted to Congress that it was being used in drug and money laundering investigations. Ashcroft breezily ignored the fact that the legislation was designed exclusively for cases related to terrorism. Instead, he used it as a device to bypass privacy rights and increase government intrusion into the activities of criminal suspects. Now, Senate Republicans Senate want to expand on those powers and eliminate the courts altogether. The new law would mean the death of judicial oversight.

    If we assess the Patriot Act in terms of stopping terrorism, we can see that it's been a dismal failure in every regard. As the Nation's David Cole pointed out last year, not one terror suspect has ever been convicted as a result of the Patriot Act. (The one conviction in a Detroit case has been overturned due to the Justice Depts. withholding of information) In fact, the Patriot Act was never designed to stop terrorism but to allow the government to spy on the American people without running afoul of the law. Preserving that advantage is extremely important to the administration. That explains why popular support is maintained through a coordinated media campaign of fear mongering. The specter of terrorism is the only way the administration can market its assault on personal liberty.

    Invoking the Terror Hobgoblin

    FBI General Counsel Valerie Caproni addressed the Senate last week to defend the need for administrative subpoenas saying, "Can we show you a precise example of where, because of a delay, a bomb went off? We cannot, but it could happen tomorrow. It could."

    Caproni's hackneyed "ticking time-bomb" argument has been a reliable favorite for spooking the public into acquiescence, but there are signs that Americans are starting to recoil from savaging more of their rights. Volunteer groups supporting the Bill of Rights have passed resolutions in hundreds of American cities (as well as 3 more state legislatures; Idaho, Montana and Colorado) opposing the Patriot Act. It's all but certain that they will bitterly fight this new provision.

    Regrettably, Senate Intelligence Chair Pat Roberts has been extremely effective in co-opting reluctant members of his committee and moving the White House's agenda forward. He has warned of "constraints that would tie the FBI's hands unnecessarily"; an empty caveat that ignores the more immediate danger of law enforcement officers operating beyond their traditional restrictions. Robert's legislation ensures that agents will be much freer to operate according to their own inclinations which will inevitably invite the abuse of power and the further trampling of individual rights.

    As for the 4th amendment, administrative subpoenas will preclude the "reasonable expectation of privacy" and will pave the way for unlimited and unwarranted government intrusion.

    Spying on the citizenry is not unique to the Bush administration. It is a practice that is commonplace in all police states; especially those that disguise their activities with the overheated rhetoric of religious zealotry and nationalism. If the new legislation moves forward in its present form, the administration will be free to sidestep the probable cause requirement and probe every minute detail of the citizen's life without any fear of legal retribution. This puts Bush and his friends in the FBI safely beyond the range of judicial oversight; enhancing his executive powers while diminishing the protections normally afforded to American citizens. For Bush, that's a winning combination.

  15. #15
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Pretty alarming, if you ask me. I seriously doubt it will affect me on a personal basis, but it's clearly another strike against the constitution—a slow erosion of our personal rights and freedoms.

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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    To give up liberties to fight a war should be done very caustiously and with great debate. To have this voted on in a secret meeting smacks of the government not wanting it to get out. We seem to be all to willing to give up importamt personal rights for these various "wars", be the one on drugs, the one on terrorism, or even the one on declining city revenue streams which has led to the taking of private property in the name of developement.

    I first blame the citizenry for this for not keeping up with what their "representatives" I second blame the "media" for being more concerned with fluff and violence instead of real stories that affect people. The third party at blame here are said "representatives" who seem only concerned with kissing the butt of whomever gives tham the most money or can boost them up a step. Here in Texas they don't even have the guts to put their votes on record. In Washington they like to write bills that are thousands of pages long in order to keep them from being read, let alone debated.

    It may be the terroists they are going after now, but what will keep someone from abusing this power later? You know they are not going to reliquish it.

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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Firstly, I agree with all that has already been said concerning how dangerous the Pattriot Act is. The last thing a democracy needs is the give up its freedom for its security, alas that is the death of it. Futhermore these secret meeting strike me as merely more contempt that the empire. . . government has for its constituents. The biggst question that I have is why the majority of citizens don't seem to be doing anything about, just complaining.

    Most of the time they rely on the media to tell them their news. However, as stated above the media only reports on :fluff and violence." Though I fear that it goes far deeper than this. Consider stories like the downing street memo, or this expansion of the patriot act, or how Sensenbrenner just seariously breached house protocol by shutting down testemony unilaterally, and then look at what the news covers. Lately it has beent he Michael Jackson hearing, or how Russell Crowe or Tom Cruise has been acting strangely.

    Now consider this and then consider what they SHOULD be covering and tell me: Is something not wrong with our media. Either they are too lazy to cover REAL stories (Which i doubt), or they have been bribed, or worse threatened by someone with a lot of power. In other word they don't want to become the next "newsweek." They realize that if they report any story that shows reason for us to have problem with the majority in this country, that they will get punished.

    And with the media eerly silent we don't get the coverage of the news that we need to truely understand how our government is doing right now. So we don't get the truely important stories like the Downing Street Memo, Sensenbrenner illegaly shuting down democracy, or the patriot acting being expanded. Furthermore whenever someone like Barbra Boxer, or Harry Reid do something that is important politically we don't hear about it, and when we do hear about it we only hear how it has "Impaired" the republicans plans for this country.

    We need to wake up and take accountablity for our country. We can't let these people systematically turn this democracy into a cast system where the top 10% are on the top and the rest are on the bottom. Call your news outlets and DEMAND that they report real news. If enough of us do it, we might actually get the very thing that we are asking for.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    I don't like it at all. I didn't like the 1st Patriot Act and any expansion invoked over a fine tuning is unacceptable.

    On a side note I don't blame the media. I still maintain that in today's age of the internet if a person doesn't know they are being willfully ignorant. The problem today is that parties have become too polarized. If one party says something we have to agree or disagree with it. If we break ranks we become the enemy of "freedom". There is little middle ground to hear one another anymore.

  19. #19
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    This entire Ben Franklin quote is getting a little tired guys. Every single time that the Patriot Act is mentioned somebody drags this out.

    Yes we all want freedom. Yes we all want liberty.

    However you get in a car every day (probaby) & drive a posted speed limit. Why? Because it's the law.

    But Peck, what the hell does this have to do with liberty & freedom & security? Simple, you are willingly giving up your liberty & freedom to drive however you want & whenever you want for the security of others. In other words you can't just do 70mph in a school zone because of the safety of the children. But doesn't this infringe on your liberty & freedom? Yes it does but we do it every day without questioning it.

    Same here.

    Look, beleive it or not I like civil libertys. However I just don't buy into the boogyman that is the Patriot Act.

    It works, it does it's job & doesn't impact any of us on a daily basis at all.

    Hell I'll go so far as to say that I bet not a single person on here has been affected by the Patriot Act, EVER.

    We need to be vigilant & the first time you see a prosecutor using the Patriot Act to prosecute some local criminal then we should raise holy hell.

    But I will sleep better at night if the gov. is watching over foreign nationals who they suspect of being terrorist.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  20. #20
    Jesus Shuttlesworth
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Do you have so much to hide that the Patriot Act bothers you? The Patriot Act has probably saved countless lives since it began.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    I will ignore the speedlimit comparison, you are way smarter then that

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Look, beleive it or not I like civil libertys. However I just don't buy into the boogyman that is the Patriot Act.

    It works, it does it's job & doesn't impact any of us on a daily basis at all.

    Hell I'll go so far as to say that I bet not a single person on here has been affected by the Patriot Act, EVER.

    We need to be vigilant & the first time you see a prosecutor using the Patriot Act to prosecute some local criminal then we should raise holy hell.

    But I will sleep better at night if the gov. is watching over foreign nationals who they suspect of being terrorist.
    from the above article:

    The range of the Patriot Act expanded dramatically under Ashcroft. The former Attorney General even boasted to Congress that it was being used in drug and money laundering investigations. Ashcroft breezily ignored the fact that the legislation was designed exclusively for cases related to terrorism. Instead, he used it as a device to bypass privacy rights and increase government intrusion into the activities of criminal suspects.
    and
    [
    If we assess the Patriot Act in terms of stopping terrorism, we can see that it's been a dismal failure in every regard. As the Nation's David Cole pointed out last year, not one terror suspect has ever been convicted as a result of the Patriot Act. (The one conviction in a Detroit case has been overturned due to the Justice Depts. withholding of information) In fact, the Patriot Act was never designed to stop terrorism but to allow the government to spy on the American people without running afoul of the law. Preserving that advantage is extremely important to the administration. That explains why popular support is maintained through a coordinated media campaign of fear mongering. The specter of terrorism is the only way the administration can market its assault on personal liberty.
    It does not mention the (surprisingly high) number of people held under the act and released after time because no proof can be found.


    If it smells like something it probably is something.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  22. #22
    Gold Stagger Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Look, believe it or not I like civil liberty's. However I just don't buy into the boogyman that is the Patriot Act.

    It works, it does it's job & doesn't impact any of us on a daily basis at all.

    Hell I'll go so far as to say that I bet not a single person on here has been affected by the Patriot Act, EVER.

    We need to be vigilant & the first time you see a prosecutor using the Patriot Act to prosecute some local criminal then we should raise holy hell.
    You can keep your head in the sand if you want.

    The Patriot Act has and is being used against normal citizens and common criminals since it was enacted. Do some searches, they are easy to find. The FBI was training their people how to use it against normal citizens within weeks of it being passed.

    Not one single terror suspect has ever been convicted as a result of the Patriot Act. 100's of "suspected" terrorists have now been held for over 2 years without any formal charges or even a single day in court.

    The rules of law and the Constitution have worked well for over 200 years. That is not what this country was founded on, it's a disgrace. Welcome to the Fascist States of America.

  23. #23
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop
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    You can keep your head in the sand if you want.

    The Patriot Act has and is being used against normal citizens and common criminals since it was enacted. Do some searches, they are easy to find. The FBI was training their people how to use it against normal citizens within weeks of it being passed.

    Not one single terror suspect has ever been convicted as a result of the Patriot Act. 100's of "suspected" terrorists have now been held for over 2 years without any formal charges or even a single day in court.

    The rules of law and the Constitution have worked well for over 200 years. That is not what this country was founded on, it's a disgrace. Welcome to the Fascist States of America.
    Yes yes we all know you hate President Bush & the evil Republicans so I will just look past your venom about this being a fascist state.

    However your "Rule of Law" that you like to fanatsize about is just not true. Abe Lincoln suspended the writ of habius corpus during the civil war. One of your partys hero's enturned all pacific rim ancestoral Japanese during WW2.

    This exact same office that you are complaining about was also founded under Roosevelt during WW2.

    During almost every single war or armed conflict that our country has been in, the gov. has taken extrodenary measures to protect the country.

    Again, another comparison to freedom & liberty vs. security. Conscription (commonly known as the draft) is the essential removal of freedoms & liberty of the individual but it is done for the seurity of the nation. Does anybody want to argue against conscription in WW2?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  24. #24
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    I will ignore the speedlimit comparison, you are way smarter then that



    from the above article:



    and
    [

    It does not mention the (surprisingly high) number of people held under the act and released after time because no proof can be found.


    If it smells like something it probably is something.
    Ok first of all I will not use counterpunch.com as an unbiased source of information.

    Just a quick scan on thier own web page kind of tells me what they are about.

    Here this is from thier about us page.

    "We've got all the right enemies."
    CounterPunch is the bi-weekly muckraking newsletter edited by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair. Twice a month we bring our readers the stories that the corporate press never prints. We aren't side-line journalists here at CounterPunch. Ours is muckraking with a radical attitude and nothing makes us happier than when CounterPunch readers write in to say how useful they've found our newsletter in their battles against the war machine, big business and the rapers of nature.



    Now before anybody gets all huffy with me let me say this. They are entitled to thier opinion & no just because they are probably a left wing org. doesn't mean that their facts are incorrect.

    However I would no more listen to them as gospel than I would expect any of you to listen to Rushlimbaugh.com as an authortative word.

    Ok, now to another topic.

    Why did you not like my speeding analogy?

    Let's review the basic facts on this.

    Why do we not speed? Because it is the law.

    Why is it a law? Because it protects citizens from potential harm thus offering a form of security.

    Does this enfringe on a persons freedoms & liberty? Yes it does, I want to get in my vehicle & go whatever speed I want on occasion however I know I cannot. If I so choose to willfully speed in such a manor as to be deemed wreckless I can have my liberty taken away from me by way of a jail sentance.

    So, again, why is this a bad analogy?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  25. #25

    Default Re: Freaking Patriot Act gets expanded

    What I don't like about the Patriot act is not that it takes away liberty. My problem is that it does so in secrecy and a lack of open procedure. When I am caught speeding I know that can appeal, that I there are public records of what I am being charged with, what the punishment will be. This is not so with the Patriot Act.

    Also i was taught in history class that the internment camps of both the Civil and WWII were bad things. Perhaps it I was being brainwashed but I don't see how we can be proud of indiscrinate, mass inprisonment.

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