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  1. #1
    Harmonica
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    Default A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Skaut, you wrote the following in the Artest for Dampier thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Ya know, for the longest time, I've been maintaining that I want Ron to stay, but I'm starting to change my mind about it.
    Seeing as you are one of the only people here who's "starting to change their mind about Ron," I'm curious as to what brought this change about?

  2. #2
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Skaut, you wrote the following in the Artest for Dampier thread:



    Seeing as you are one of the only people here who's "starting to change their mind about Ron," I'm curious as to what brought this change about?
    I wanted to allow myself the end of the season and a little perspective before I started thinking really hard about keeping him. >>

    Thereís something that keeps nagging at me. >>

    Ron has always had emotional problems. His coach in college said he had a ďdark side.Ē I talked to someone in his family, who views him as emotionally and intellectually stunted. If I remember right, when he had that camera destruction incident, he was going through anger management. I think about him going after Pat Riley, various times where he tore up Bulls equipment in anger. Thereís the string of suspensions and fines. The fact that the Bulls got tired of dealing with him. >>

    I just donít see Ron changing. >>

    Sure he will to an extent, but he is who he is. >>

    I admit, I still hold a huge grudge against him for derailing our season the way he did. (And please, I donít want a breakdown of the minutae of who did what, folks. Bottom line, Ron doesnít go into the stands, nothing happens, we come off looking good and the Pistons end up looking like jerks.) >>

    That being said, I think itís too dangerous to keep him. I honestly think heíll have another incident in the future and itíll be something big. Not like this past one by any means, but none-the-less, I think itíll happen. >>

    I think about guys heís compared against: Sprewell had a big history of on and off court incidents. Violent incidents. He cleaned up his act for a while, but now is a major disruptive influence for the Wolves. Rodman was a freak, but he had a HUGE factor in controlling him. Jordan. We donít have a strong charismatic leader like Jordan who can wither ANY teammate with just a look. Vernon Maxwell had the strong spiritual influence of Hakeem. I just donít if we have an on-court guy to corral him. >>

    If anyone can try and keep Ron in check, I think Carlisle and Bird can do it. They both appear no-nonsense about things. >>

    But I just have this nagging suspension about Ron. Something is going to happen and itís going to further tarnish our franchise and/or affect the outcome of something important, whether itís immediately, or has an affect down the road for playoff positioning. >>

    I know Ron has turned down being medicated in the past. Thatís understandable, given his upbringing, but heís had years and years of ďanger managementĒ and it doesnít seem to affect him. >>

    Iím sure a lot of folks are saying, heís finally decided to change, so if he puts his mind to it, maybe itíll happen. Itís just that I have this nagging feeling that somewhere down the road is lurking another bad incident for the Pacers and Ron is going to be at the center of it. >>

    I just donít know if I want to feel that dread for the next few years.

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    But I just have this nagging suspension about Ron.....
    Very clever, Skaut!.........
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    Very clever, Skaut!.........
    Freudian to say the least.

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Ack!! Am I nuts or what...Skaut your reply shows up as having all thes < and ! and Empty Paras in it....was that intentional or is my system not interpreting symbols????
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Ack!! Am I nuts or what...Skaut your reply shows up as having all thes < and ! and Empty Paras in it....was that intentional or is my system not interpreting symbols????
    Time to replace that Commodore computer Geezer.

  7. #7
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Thanks for the reply, Skaut. A couple of more questions. When exactly did this change come about? Was it more gradual or sudden? And was there ever a time when you liked having Ron on the team or felt comfortable with him here? I guess what I'm trying to get at is how predisposed you were to changing your feelings about Ron.

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    Member Vicious Tyrant's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Skaut, what an avatar - is that you?
    "If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy

  9. #9
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious Tyrant
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    Skaut, what an avatar - is that you?
    Uh........

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    Very clever, Skaut!.........
    Wow. I'd like to take credit, but Harmonica hit it on the head. Completely Freudian. That's funny. I proofread it twice.

    Thanks for the reply, Skaut. A couple of more questions. When exactly did this change come about? Was it more gradual or sudden? And was there ever a time when you liked having Ron on the team or felt comfortable with him here? I guess what I'm trying to get at is how predisposed you were to changing your feelings about Ron.
    Let me put it this way: In most of my responses to threads ab`out should Ron stay or go, I always argued that recently some of the championship teams had one certifiable wild card/loony to throw the other team off balance. I argued that Ron was essential to our success.

    The change has been gradual, but it was sparked by something a little odd; The Tyson fight.

    I was thinking how despite Mike making millions, getting to travel the world, have access to ways to better himself and people to emulate, he still ultimately is that same street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff. (I'm refering to him trying to break McBride's arm and biting his nipple.)

    All of a sudden I flashed to Ron.... a street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff.

    I felt myself slowly climbing onto the fence about Ron as the season progressed. THen watching the finals, I got to thinking, there but for the grace of Ron, goes us. A Spurs/Pacers finals. The thing I wanted in 1998, but where the Pacer screwed us fans hard with one of the biggest choke jobs I've ever seen a team pull in the NBA, when a title is on the line.

    Watching the Tyson fight, coupled with watching the finals finally started pushing me to the "Ron must go" side, if that makes sense to you.

  10. #10
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Let me put it this way: In most of my responses to threads about should Ron stay or go, I always argued that recently some of the championship teams had one certifiable wild card/loony to throw the other team off balance. I argued that Ron was essential to our success.

    The change has been gradual, but it was sparked by something a little odd; The Tyson fight.

    I was thinking how despite Mike making millions, getting to travel the world, have access to ways to better himself and people to emulate, he still ultimately is that same street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff. (I'm refering to him trying to break McBride's arm and biting his nipple.)

    All of a sudden I flashed to Ron.... a street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff.

    I felt myself slowly climbing onto the fence about Ron as the season progressed. THen watching the finals, I got to thinking, there but for the grace of Ron, goes us. A Spurs/Pacers finals. The thing I wanted in 1988, but where the Pacer screwed us fans hard with one of the biggest choke jobs I've ever seen a team pull in the NBA, when a title is on the line.

    Watching the Tyson fight, coupled with watching the finals finally started pushing me to the "Ron must go" side, if that makes sense to you.
    Makes perfect sense. I never made the connection before, but the Tyson analogy isn't a bad one, in my opinion. They're almost frighteningly similar when you think about it.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    They're almost frighteningly similar when you think about it.
    Yes.

    Ron says no one likes him because he is a "big dumb ******."

    Ron tells his opponents that he is going to eat their children.

    Ron beats on people's car hoods because they were involved in an accident.

    Ron's been convicted of raping women. EDIT: raping a woman, not women.

    Ron robs 15y/o girls, which are the neices of his management people.

    Need I continue?

    EDIT: Plus Mike, purposely, drove his car head on into a tree, not to kill himself but to know what it feels like.

  12. #12
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Yes.

    Ron says no one likes him because he is a "big dumb ******."

    Ron tells his opponents that he is going to eat their children.

    Ron beats on people's car hoods because they were involved in an accident.

    Ron's been convicted of raping women. EDIT: raping a woman, not women.

    Ron robs 15y/o girls, which are the neices of his management people.

    Need I continue?

    EDIT: Plus Mike, purposely, drove his car head on into a tree, not to kill himself but to know what it feels like.
    Both come from troubled upbringings.

    Both possess great talent in their respective sports.

    Both have a man/child quality about them.

    Both have a laundry list of incidents while engaging in their respective sport.

    Both have a laundry list of incidents outside of their respective sports.

    Both have a history of violence.

    Both have anger/impulse issues.

    Both have demonstrated an inability to change despite heavy penalties levied on them by their respective sports.

    Both have a history of unusual (bizarre) behavior.


    I can keep going on if you want me to.


    EDIT: Both have brought unfavorable attention to their sport.

    Both have damaged their reputations through repeated offenses.

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Uh........



    Wow. I'd like to take credit, but Harmonica hit it on the head. Completely Freudian. That's funny. I proofread it twice.



    Let me put it this way: In most of my responses to threads ab`out should Ron stay or go, I always argued that recently some of the championship teams had one certifiable wild card/loony to throw the other team off balance. I argued that Ron was essential to our success.

    The change has been gradual, but it was sparked by something a little odd; The Tyson fight.

    I was thinking how despite Mike making millions, getting to travel the world, have access to ways to better himself and people to emulate, he still ultimately is that same street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff. (I'm refering to him trying to break McBride's arm and biting his nipple.)

    All of a sudden I flashed to Ron.... a street kid with anger problems who doesn't think before he does stuff.

    I felt myself slowly climbing onto the fence about Ron as the season progressed. THen watching the finals, I got to thinking, there but for the grace of Ron, goes us. A Spurs/Pacers finals. The think I wanted in 1988, but where the Pacer screwed us fans hard with one of the biggest choke jobs I've ever seen a team pull in the NBA, when a title is on the line.

    Watching the Tyson fight, coupled with watching the finals finally started pushing me to the "Ron must go" side, if that makes sense to you.

    This is going to be a very freightening post for some people around here...others will say "Who's Mike?"
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    What happened in 1988?

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    I can't believe you're basing your decision about Ron, with Mike.

    Ron has problems, but not even a tenth of Mike's.

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    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I can't believe you're basing your decision about Ron, with Mike.

    Ron has problems, but not even a tenth of Mike's.
    Really?

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Crazy, just crazy I tell you.

    Comparing Mike and Ron is utter nonsense. But at this point I say whatever. I'm tired of it all.

    Myabe I mised it, but when was Ron ever convicted of Rape. Whe did Ron spend a few years in prison. Comparing Ron and Mike off the curt or out of the ring is total BS. Has Ron ever said he wants to eat children

    I could go on.

    But why bother.

    Let's use a wide brush and paint everyone who has ever had some problems with the Tyson brush.

  18. #18
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Crazy, just crazy I tell you.

    Comparing Mike and Ron is utter nonsense. But at this point I say whatever. I'm tired of it all.
    The similarities are there, albeit extreme. And that wasn't his point. It was about people like Mike and Ron and their ability to change.

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    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    The similarities are there, albeit extreme. And that wasn't his point. It was about people like Mike and Ron's ability to change.
    Thank you! Sheesh!!

    Folks, are you not getting it. I wasn't making a comparision to put down Ron, but to show how maybe people can't change.

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Thank you! Sheesh!!

    Folks, are you not getting it. I wasn't making a comparision to put down Ron, but to show how maybe people can't change.
    And that's perfectly valid. It's just that things quickly came across (not really from you) that this was being taken much further than that, hence some of our responses.

    If that's all that was meant, no harm done.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Thank you! Sheesh!!

    Folks, are you not getting it. I wasn't making a comparision to put down Ron, but to show how maybe people can't change.


    I wasn't responding to your post, it was BP's I was responding to.

  22. #22
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I wasn't responding to your post, it was BP's I was responding to.
    Which one?

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    The similarities are there, albeit extreme. And that wasn't his point. It was about people like Mike and Ron and their ability to change.

    So because Mike didn't change, neither will Ron?

    Let's just lock up every single person with those characteristics then. Mike didn't change, therefore no one that has any of his qualities can.

    EDIT:

    There's a big difference with Ron and Mike. Mike would apologize, and then if he was being asked about the event more he would snap again. Ron not only apologizes, but doesn't make the same mistakes.

    I'm completely fine with the reason of not wanting Ron on the team because of past transgressions, even though I don't agree with them. But comparing people, especially to Iron Mike, isn't fair.

  24. #24
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    So because Mike didn't change, neither will Ron?

    Let's just lock up every single person with those characteristics then. Mike didn't change, therefore no one that has any of his qualities can.
    Please. Don't waste your keystrokes on him. Not only does he not get my point, he's now misquoting. All Harmonica said was that Ron has shown an inability to change to this point, which is what I said too. Nothing more.

    Are you so fired up to worship at the altar of Ron that you can't take a minute to read and digest a post, since? Settle down. Man!

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    Default Re: A question for Skaut_Ech...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Please. Don't waste your keystrokes on him. Not only does he not get my point, he's now misquoting. All Harmonica said was that Ron has shown an inability to change to this point, which is what I said too. Nothing more.

    Are you so fired up to worship at the altar of Ron that you can't take a minute to read and digest a post, since? Settle down. Man!

    Yes, I'm bowing at his humble name.

    This is about the 5th or 6th time now that I'm going on the record with this:

    I've decided to give Ron ONE more chance. Not an infinite number, but ONE. I might just have to use that at as my sig. I've said it before, I hate how people are labeled Ron haters, or Ron apologists. There is a middle ground, which I fall in.

    To get back to the actual topic. By using Mike, that's saying because he didn't change Ron won't either. If you just think that Ron is in capable of changing, that's fine by me, but using one person as a guide for another isn't logical.

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