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  1. #1
    foretaz
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    Default Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    ron could be traded tomorrow for all any of us know....my mind (not my heart or my gut) tells me he will not be....and i fully understand with bird and walsh the unexpected should be expected....however i will outline for u why i think they wont trade him....i feel it really comes down to two key issues....the business side and the intangible side....i will cover both but will focus on the intangible side....

    first...from the business side...ive talked about this before as have others....ron makes 6 million/yr...he was 3rd team all-nba and DPOY...hes 25 years old....he simply is the best value in the nba(i will give u, if he plays-6mill is a bit spendy for a practice player)....only a couple of players, most noteably lebron and wade, could be argued, and those players will soon be given longterm max contracts.....artest is locked in for 3 more years at a relative bargain basement rate...

    ron is arguably a top 5 all around talent....if u compare his salary to any of the other top 15 in the league that arent on their rookie contract there really isnt much comparison....most players similar to ron make 2 and in many cases 3 times what ron makes....hell....many players not nearly as good as ron make at least twice what he makes(knicks roster)....what he really enables u to do is have a max player thats not nearly making the max....and as we eliminate albatross contracts thru trade or them expiring, the addition of substantial talent is not out of the question....

    believe it or not, and something that doesnt get discussed is another business element....putting people in the stands....reggie is gone now....its very easy to see where there would be considerable concern given to attendance next year....the team has always had a bit of a problem drawing crowds....not nearly the sellouts that one might expect from having such a competitive team every year...there are those of us that remember going to games at MSA where the partition curtains were up and 7-8000 fans was the norm-and the pacers were anything but competitive-heaven forbid what would happen if that ever became the case again....

    ron artest will put people in the stands next year....for many different reasons...i will grant u some will come for the circus effect....but many fans love ron....the fact that he was overpenalized by the league made it that much more easy to like him for many....he has become a martyr of sorts...but beyond this....fans just relate to him more than most nba players....they see him as being real, having many of the same problems that many in the world face...most fans look at the players as objects....ron is the exception to this....admittedly, for some good reasons as well as some bad ones...but nevertheless the results are the same....people will be watching next year....more fans will come to games....more pacer games will be broadcast on a national level....bottom line is ron is controversial...and controversial gets attention in this day and age......expect the pacers to be a nat'l tv stalwart next year...

    these reasons, however, wouldnt override a business/team from getting rid of someone if they really wanted to....if they felt compelled strongly enuff, they would get rid of a player that they felt like compromised their chances to win a title....and i dont have any doubt that for any number of reasons that artest has been the subject of trade discussions in the past, especially last offseason, but a trade was not consummated because of some of the above mentioned reasons, most noteably, not being able to get fair value in return...however, i propose there is a reason now where those possibilities are all but gone....that any trade of ron, at any time this season, is next to impossible and it has nothing to do with the above mentioned reasons....im a firm believer if they wanted to bad enuff they could get rid of him....and what they got in return wouldnt matter much....

    and heres the real reason i think they wont get rid of him now....

    second
    , the brawl...more to the point, the fallout from the brawl....the organization has, on numerous occasions, made their feeling very well know regarding the severity of the penalties that ensued....that not only do they think theyve been overly penalized but that their franchise was made to be the scapegoat and was cast into a shadow that couldve been avoided.....they have openly said that they felt there were other factors that were involved that seemingly went unpunished, and the full responsibility seemed to fall squarely in the laps of the indiana pacers...

    all this from a supposed personal friend...

    i would propose that from that moment on, it became personal....if the punishements wouldve been less severe and a bit more evenly distributed among the two teams, such as a half season or so for artest, then i wouldnt have been surprised one bit if the pacers then got rid of artest either last season or this offseason.....so in some ways u might have david stern to thank for rons assured continued presence on this team....i would even go so far as to say that i wouldve been totally surprised that ron wouldve been on the team come this training camp if he wouldve received a suspension of around 40 or even 50 games...i personally think they wouldve even tried to release ron and fight his contract based on personal conduct issues....

    but because of the severity of the suspensions...because the pacers took such a huge hit, i think its reasonable to see where the simons, because they basically felt betrayed by their 'good' friend, basically laid down the law....its personal....they along with donnie, larry, and the rest of the organization took it upon themselves to make sure that this travesty was shown up.....to prove that the nba and their 'good' friend was not only wrong in the way they damaged and penalized their franchise, but wrong in their reasons for doing so-not the least of which was the way ron was portrayed as well as the pacers for 'putting up and allowing' ron to continue on while not getting him help...

    to get rid of ron says the nba was right in what they did and how they penalized the franchise...it says that the nba did what the pacers shouldve done a long time ago....and i dont think the simons or their management appreciate that much, especially coming from a 'good' friend....so i think they have taken it upon themselves and the rest of the organization to make sure they do everything humanly possible to make sure that not only is the nba proven to be wrong in the way they handled it, but more importantly to use this as an opportunity to regain their status as one of the very best franchises in the league...and what better way to do that than to 'rehab' ron and for ron and this franchise to have a banner year next year....and while im sure the commissioner will only say that this will validate his decision....those within our organization will definitely feel differently and will get a great deal of satisfaction from this....

    are they taking a chance? of course they are....but u dont get to where the simons are today without taking chances....hell...they bought the pacers franchise way back when....that was taking a HUGE chance....but they also are very smart.....and know how to tilt the balance to their favor....and if u believe for one moment that they are spending time trying to get rid of artest....instead of expending every possible effort and asset trying to ensure that this season is not only a team success but an artest success, well i would respectfully disagree....and i think thats the message larry bird gave jermaine oneal as well....

    last year it was business...this year its personal.....

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    You had me at "Why Artest Won't Be Traded".
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Believe me,he will if the right trade came along. Donnie does not take ***** at all. He has sent players packing for making bad comments in the paper. He is very sensitive to how the Pacers are percieved in the community.

    However, I agree that Artest is the best bargain in the NBA if you leave all his baggage out.

  4. #4
    SjA3837
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacerwaala
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    He has sent players packing for making bad comments in the paper.
    Theres a difference between someone having a bad attitude outside of the game, but all of Rons actions take place from the emotion of the game, and from the frusteration of losing.

    But I agree if the right trade comes along, but the thing is... it wont. We wont get equal value back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SjA3837
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    Theres a difference between someone having a bad attitude outside of the game, but all of Rons actions take place from the emotion of the game, and from the frusteration of losing.

    But I agree if the right trade comes along, but the thing is... it wont. We wont get equal value back.
    Not all of Ron's actions have taken place during a game... he wanted time off in November, he's had disputes with his wife, and the GQ article.

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    last year it was business...this year its personal.....
    I don't know, I sort of disagree, I still think if they could get good value for Artest they would trade him. That's going back to good business sense.

    Of course if Bird is convinced Artest has changed he won't trade him. Bird is kind of stubborn.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    are they taking a chance? of course they are....but u dont get to where the simons are today without taking chances....hell...they bought the pacers franchise way back when....that was taking a HUGE chance....but they also are very smart.....and know how to tilt the balance to their favor....and if u believe for one moment that they are spending time trying to get rid of artest....instead of expending every possible effort and asset trying to ensure that this season is not only a team success but an artest success, well i would respectfully disagree....and i think thats the message larry bird gave jermaine oneal as well...
    Actually, the Simons didn't pay a dime for the Pacers. They assumed the team's $8 million debt to keep them in Indy. Also, the Simons will do whatever Donnie and Larry recommend regarding Ron, and I believe they are just biding their time with him.

  8. #8
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Actually, the Simons didn't pay a dime for the Pacers. They assumed the team's $8 million debt to keep them in Indy. Also, the Simons will do whatever Donnie and Larry recommend regarding Ron, and they are just biding their time with him.
    lol...ur kidding right? please tell me that ur aware that the business transaction u just described is fairly commonplace when businesses in financial distress are sold....please tell me u get that and wouldnt have people really believe that it cost the simons nothing....whether there is a cash outlay or not has no bearing on the transaction and risk involved....to assume 8 million in debt or to pay 8 million in cash is strictly financing and in no way a reflection of anything else but that....

    as for the other part of ur statement...ill ignore it....for obvious reasons..

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    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    lol...ur kidding right? please tell me that ur aware that the business transaction u just described is fairly commonplace when businesses in financial distress are sold....please tell me u get that and wouldnt have people really believe that it cost the simons nothing....whether there is a cash outlay or not has no bearing on the transaction and risk involved....to assume 8 million in debt or to pay 8 million in cash is strictly financing and in no way a reflection of anything else but that....

    as for the other part of ur statement...ill ignore it....for obvious reasons..
    Well, that's the way it was described to me by someone I'm quite certain knows much more about it than you pretend to know, so...whatever.

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    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Well, that's the way it was described to me by someone I'm quite certain knows much more about it than you pretend to know, so...whatever.
    oh...lemme guess....more purported info??? is this like the purported cleveland trade? or the purported peja trade...as ive said before...i prefer to play the speculation game based on the fact that i have before me....and have no interest in others that insist on contradicting thes facts with purported info....it serves zero purpose, except it would appear, to inflate certain peoples egos....when such info has been wrong before it kinda speaks a bit to the overall credibility of the source....either way...it really changes nothing...

    the difference between u and i appears to be that i dont purport to know anything other than my own opinion and those events that have already known as facts....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    the difference between u and i appears to be that i dont purport to know anything other than my own opinion and those events that have already known as facts....
    Well, there ya go.

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    ron could be traded tomorrow for all any of us know....my mind (not my heart or my gut) tells me he will not be....and i fully understand with bird and walsh the unexpected should be expected....however i will outline for u why i think they wont trade him....i feel it really comes down to two key issues....the business side and the intangible side....i will cover both but will focus on the intangible side....

    first...from the business side...ive talked about this before as have others....ron makes 6 million/yr...he was 3rd team all-nba and DPOY...hes 25 years old....he simply is the best value in the nba(i will give u, if he plays-6mill is a bit spendy for a practice player)....only a couple of players, most noteably lebron and wade, could be argued, and those players will soon be given longterm max contracts.....artest is locked in for 3 more years at a relative bargain basement rate...

    ron is arguably a top 5 all around talent....if u compare his salary to any of the other top 15 in the league that arent on their rookie contract there really isnt much comparison....most players similar to ron make 2 and in many cases 3 times what ron makes....hell....many players not nearly as good as ron make at least twice what he makes(knicks roster)....what he really enables u to do is have a max player thats not nearly making the max....and as we eliminate albatross contracts thru trade or them expiring, the addition of substantial talent is not out of the question....

    believe it or not, and something that doesnt get discussed is another business element....putting people in the stands....reggie is gone now....its very easy to see where there would be considerable concern given to attendance next year....the team has always had a bit of a problem drawing crowds....not nearly the sellouts that one might expect from having such a competitive team every year...there are those of us that remember going to games at MSA where the partition curtains were up and 7-8000 fans was the norm-and the pacers were anything but competitive-heaven forbid what would happen if that ever became the case again....

    ron artest will put people in the stands next year....for many different reasons...i will grant u some will come for the circus effect....but many fans love ron....the fact that he was overpenalized by the league made it that much more easy to like him for many....he has become a martyr of sorts...but beyond this....fans just relate to him more than most nba players....they see him as being real, having many of the same problems that many in the world face...most fans look at the players as objects....ron is the exception to this....admittedly, for some good reasons as well as some bad ones...but nevertheless the results are the same....people will be watching next year....more fans will come to games....more pacer games will be broadcast on a national level....bottom line is ron is controversial...and controversial gets attention in this day and age......expect the pacers to be a nat'l tv stalwart next year...

    these reasons, however, wouldnt override a business/team from getting rid of someone if they really wanted to....if they felt compelled strongly enuff, they would get rid of a player that they felt like compromised their chances to win a title....and i dont have any doubt that for any number of reasons that artest has been the subject of trade discussions in the past, especially last offseason, but a trade was not consummated because of some of the above mentioned reasons, most noteably, not being able to get fair value in return...however, i propose there is a reason now where those possibilities are all but gone....that any trade of ron, at any time this season, is next to impossible and it has nothing to do with the above mentioned reasons....im a firm believer if they wanted to bad enuff they could get rid of him....and what they got in return wouldnt matter much....

    and heres the real reason i think they wont get rid of him now....

    second
    , the brawl...more to the point, the fallout from the brawl....the organization has, on numerous occasions, made their feeling very well know regarding the severity of the penalties that ensued....that not only do they think theyve been overly penalized but that their franchise was made to be the scapegoat and was cast into a shadow that couldve been avoided.....they have openly said that they felt there were other factors that were involved that seemingly went unpunished, and the full responsibility seemed to fall squarely in the laps of the indiana pacers...

    all this from a supposed personal friend...

    i would propose that from that moment on, it became personal....if the punishements wouldve been less severe and a bit more evenly distributed among the two teams, such as a half season or so for artest, then i wouldnt have been surprised one bit if the pacers then got rid of artest either last season or this offseason.....so in some ways u might have david stern to thank for rons assured continued presence on this team....i would even go so far as to say that i wouldve been totally surprised that ron wouldve been on the team come this training camp if he wouldve received a suspension of around 40 or even 50 games...i personally think they wouldve even tried to release ron and fight his contract based on personal conduct issues....

    but because of the severity of the suspensions...because the pacers took such a huge hit, i think its reasonable to see where the simons, because they basically felt betrayed by their 'good' friend, basically laid down the law....its personal....they along with donnie, larry, and the rest of the organization took it upon themselves to make sure that this travesty was shown up.....to prove that the nba and their 'good' friend was not only wrong in the way they damaged and penalized their franchise, but wrong in their reasons for doing so-not the least of which was the way ron was portrayed as well as the pacers for 'putting up and allowing' ron to continue on while not getting him help...

    to get rid of ron says the nba was right in what they did and how they penalized the franchise...it says that the nba did what the pacers shouldve done a long time ago....and i dont think the simons or their management appreciate that much, especially coming from a 'good' friend....so i think they have taken it upon themselves and the rest of the organization to make sure they do everything humanly possible to make sure that not only is the nba proven to be wrong in the way they handled it, but more importantly to use this as an opportunity to regain their status as one of the very best franchises in the league...and what better way to do that than to 'rehab' ron and for ron and this franchise to have a banner year next year....and while im sure the commissioner will only say that this will validate his decision....those within our organization will definitely feel differently and will get a great deal of satisfaction from this....

    are they taking a chance? of course they are....but u dont get to where the simons are today without taking chances....hell...they bought the pacers franchise way back when....that was taking a HUGE chance....but they also are very smart.....and know how to tilt the balance to their favor....and if u believe for one moment that they are spending time trying to get rid of artest....instead of expending every possible effort and asset trying to ensure that this season is not only a team success but an artest success, well i would respectfully disagree....and i think thats the message larry bird gave jermaine oneal as well....

    last year it was business...this year its personal.....

    Ok, after carefull consideration & lots of soul serching I've come to a conclusion.

    You are Ron Artest aren't you.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, after carefull consideration & lots of soul serching I've come to a conclusion.

    You are Ron Artest aren't you.

    naaaa...im really billy knight...trying to figure out a way to get the pacers to give me ron artest for a 2nd rounder....they wont budge...damn them....he would put some butts in the seats here in atlanta....but my old team just wont help a brother out....and btw...when they gonna retire my damn jersey?

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, after carefull consideration & lots of soul serching I've come to a conclusion.

    You are Ron Artest aren't you.
    Maybe not Artest, but I'm beginning to wonder if behind the purple text and chat room abbreviations lurks someone else familiar...
    Your horse is dead, get off it already...

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by BostonConnection
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    Maybe not Artest, but I'm beginning to wonder if behind the purple text and chat room abbreviations lurks someone else familiar...
    "Hey it's Scot Pollard"!!!!!

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    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonConnection
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    Maybe not Artest, but I'm beginning to wonder if behind the purple text and chat room abbreviations lurks someone else familiar...
    godisthatu?

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, after carefull consideration & lots of soul serching I've come to a conclusion.

    You are Ron Artest aren't you.
    I think RA will be wearing Blue & Gold next year, we need him and unless we get a McGrady or Bogut he's staying. Oh by the way peck that Hulk picture would look better if it had a #32 Pacers Jersey on it. I know theres a few on here that can help with that, just not me.
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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    There's another factor that impacts Ron's status with the Pacer's next year I think we are missing. I don't know how many games the Pacer's will play before the trade deadline next year, but what if the Pacer's take off like a scalded dog and are 35-6?

    And Ron hasn't did anything more than get some flagrent fouls, what then?

    It would make it very hard to trade him even if that was their intent. In fact I don't think they would.

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    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    There's another factor that impacts Ron's status with the Pacer's next year I think we are missing. I don't know how many games the Pacer's will play before the trade deadline next year, but what if the Pacer's take off like a scalded dog and are 35-6?

    And Ron hasn't did anything more than get some flagrent fouls, what then?

    It would make it very hard to trade him even if that was their intent. In fact I don't think they would.
    what was the title of this thread again?

    besides...theyre anxious to see if ron could slow down ginoboli in the finals next year....

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    With most buisnesses, once an employees negatives come anywhere close to exceeding his positives, you find a new employee.

    Even though Artest replacement will not be as talented as he is, the new player, whoever it is, will not weigh upon the franchise like Ron does.

    I will miss Artest very much he is a special talent. Very troubled but talented none-the-less.

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    ummm...maybe u should reread again....

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bulletproof
    Look, one way or another Ron is going to be traded.
    Who knew that (1) every team would end up turning us down last summer, and (2) that a pesky season-long suspension would get in the way of any reasonable mid-season trade opportunities?

    I happen to think, after a forced break in the action, that what BP says is consistent with how DW and Bird have run a no-nonsense franchise. They don't hurt thier own opportunities when they cut thier losses, but they *will* indeed make a move to cut thier losses. It may not be this summer, but even if they play thier way to 35-6 at the trading deadline, if they got an offer that the believed was acceptable I think they'd 'pull the trigger' to prevent the next meltdown at crunch time.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
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    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Who knew that (1) every team would end up turning us down last summer, and (2) that a pesky season-long suspension would get in the way of any reasonable mid-season trade opportunities?

    I happen to think, after a forced break in the action, that what BP says is consistent with how DW and Bird have run a no-nonsense franchise. They don't hurt thier own opportunities when they cut thier losses, but they *will* indeed make a move to cut thier losses. It may not be this summer, but even if they play thier way to 35-6 at the trading deadline, if they got an offer that the believed was acceptable I think they'd 'pull the trigger' to prevent the next meltdown at crunch time.
    jay....very well put...and i dont have a problem with any thing u ve said here...i may or may not agree....but theres one huge difference....

    you prefaced it with the words "i happen to think"....as long as u or anyone else doesnt try to make their opinion more than just that....all this other nonsense is just that...nonsense...

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    jay....very well put...and i dont have a problem with any thing u ve said here...i may or may not agree....but theres one huge difference....

    you prefaced it with the words "i happen to think"....as long as u or anyone else doesnt try to make their opinion more than just that....all this other nonsense is just that...nonsense...
    Is it really necessary for me or anyone else to begin every post with "I happen to think"? Clearly this is just my opinion, no matter how educated or uneducated you think it to be. I'm not going to type the caveats and disclaimors every time, but clearly nobody on this board is speaking in absolute terms except our famous poster "DWalsh41" .
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Is it really necessary for me or anyone else to begin every post with "I happen to think"? Clearly this is just my opinion, no matter how educated or uneducated you think it to be. I'm not going to type the caveats and disclaimors every time, but clearly nobody on this board is speaking in absolute terms except our famous poster "DWalsh41" .
    nope...not necessary at all....in fact ive only read one persons posts that attempted to portray his own opinion as something much more than that....and the condescending attitude to boot....but i fixed that with the ignore feature.....ive seen that little message twice now....and i gotta admit...its a first for me, and feels damn good....sense of relief....


    these forums are all about sharing opinions...and this forum, particularly, has some very educated opinions, which, for my part, make it that much more enjoyable....you will always have people that feel their opinion is right and others are wrong....and thats fine and to be expected...just in most cases, especially here in a much more respectful environment, they dont attempt to add validity to their own opinion by foolish measures while attempting to discredit another persons opinion-a concept in itself that speaks volumes to the character of such an individual....but...as always...JMO

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    Default Re: Why Artest Wont Be Traded

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I happen to think, after a forced break in the action, that what BP says is consistent with how DW and Bird have run a no-nonsense franchise. They don't hurt thier own opportunities when they cut thier losses, but they *will* indeed make a move to cut thier losses. It may not be this summer, but even if they play thier way to 35-6 at the trading deadline, if they got an offer that the believed was acceptable I think they'd 'pull the trigger' to prevent the next meltdown at crunch time.
    Jay, I don't agree with this last part.

    Bird and Walsh are in sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" predicament right now.

    I think that most folks probably believe that once Artest is back in training camp, and the on-the-court chemistry is re-established, that the Pacers will start off just as you have mentioned. We will pull out of the gate strong, and will probably be right at the top of our division and conference standings.

    After riding the horse that long with Artest (at least from a public perception standpoint), the Pacers would **** off more than a few fans if they pulled the trigger on the trade with Artest this summer, and suddenly we don't play nearly as strong as most fans had invisioned.

    But, I do believe it would be possible to put a decent spin on that scenario by stating that establishing chemistry with the new players (from the trade) will take time, and that better play and W-L success is forthcoming.

    However, we pull out of the gate strong, slide into the trading deadline at the top of the conference, then pull the plug on the trade, the Pacer brass takes a pretty big risk. What if performance totally falls off the rest of the season and during the playoffs?

    I think in the eyes of the fans, that would be almost unforgiveable. Their attitude will be "it wasn't broke, why the hell did you mess with it?" We had a shot at getting to the finals, and a possible title, and you guys pissed it away.

    On the other hands, if they don't trade Artest and he implodes late in the season or in the playoffs, and the fans are going to be equally pissed.

    If Artest is to be traded, I think there really is only one safe solution for Walsh and Bird. And that would be to trade him prior to next season. To me, waiting to trade him sometime during the season is just way too risky on both the performance/success of the team and the on the resulting attitude of the fans.

    For that reason, I really believe that if Artest isn't traded this summer, he will not be traded. The Pacers will play too well with him in the lineup to risk it. And as we both have stated before, trading Artest would probably also require the trading of another starter or two to balance out the lineup. That just seems like to big of an undertaking once the games begin.

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