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Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

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  • #1

    Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

    I’m writing this in the early morning hours of Monday June 19, 2017. About 12 hours ago, news broke from Woj that Paul George has informed the Pacers that he does intend to leave after this season, more than likely for his hometown of Los Angeles.

    While busy most of the evening, I’ve now been able to catch up through most of the discussions on here and elsewhere, and I have some thoughts and questions that I want to share with the board. Hopefully, now that some of the initial shock is gone for most, we can bring down some of the rhetoric and actually discuss all of the various branches that this news brings us.

    Here are my thoughts, with some questions sprinkled in:

    1. First, let’s follow this advice:




    2. Here is a question: Many of you want hometown kid Gordon Heyward to sign with us in Indy, leaving his current team in Utah just to sign with the Pacers because he grew up in Brownsburg and went to college in Butler. Why is that perfectly fine, but it is causing some of you to be so angry at Paul George, who apparently feels the same way about his hometown. Why the double standard? In reality, if Utah loses Heyward, they will likely have gotten nothing for him, as he would be leaving them rather high and dry. In this case, with this warning he is giving us well enough time to get something for him. It seems to me the vitriol toward George is ill conceived, at least the level of it.

    3. Many of you need to think more outside the box in what we may be able to get for Paul to salvage this. I’m not saying this is likely, but it is possible: A current NBA free agent this summer, could, in theory, be signed and traded for Paul.

    I am not as “in tune” with this current CBA as I have been previous editions, but I can imagine sign and trade deals would be possible for guys like Heyward or even Blake Griffin. Not saying it is going to happen with those guys or others like that, but it COULD. Those teams would gain a premium player for a year instead of losing their current free agent for nothing, and we’d get a player in a long term deal. Let’s talk about those potential people.

    4. Why are we assuming “Los Angeles” has to mean the Lakers? Paul George could just as easily be traded to the Clippers as the Lakers, and they are just as good a destination theoretically as far as franchises go. Ballmer seems to be a good owner, they are seeking a new arena now, and they have a more or less ready made roster who is at least a contender, especially if they add Paul George. They also just added Jerry West, who wants nothing more than to usurp the Lakers and Warriors. Griffin sign/trade to Oklahoma City, PG to the Clippers, picks and assets from both teams to Indiana is a possibility also.

    5. Don’t be so sure this leak came from Paul George or his agent. This could very well be a leak orchestrated by Indiana in order to get teams to the table, and to raise a sense of urgency to the offers which have likely been being explored for months if not years already. I kind of smell a rat. Maybe, not for sure but maybe, this was leaked by KP and Dinwiddie simply to get teams to come at us with their very best offers right now, instead of slowplaying their hands like many of them probably were.

    6. Why are we so upset hearing this? I mean, we all thought he was leaving anyway. Why does him confirming what we already knew hit us so hard? Time to take the emotion down a notch, and look at this is an opportunity, not a burden. Our front office got close a few years ago, but we couldn’t quite build a team with Paul George to get us to the promised land. Championships are the goal, and we were nowhere near getting one currently. Now, we have a path and direction at least….the indecision is over.

    7. I do have concerns about ownership as many of you know. I blame our owner for not being willing to pay market rate for a premium coach, for example. Now, I am hearing small rumblings here and there about our team possibly going on the market in the next few years. I wonder if ownership questions have influenced Paul’s thinking on any of this. It would mine if I were in his shoes.

    8. On the right team, Paul George is a big time difference maker. He can take a team up a couple of different levels, and potentially, push a team over the edge to a title…..that is the story we have to tell. We need to get as many contending teams to not just crave having Paul, but to fear their rivals getting him as well. So we don’t need any stories leaking out of Bankers Life in anyway negative about PG. We need to exact opposite. KP needs to crank up the PR machine, which won’t likely help that much, but it certainly doesn’t hurt.

    9. There are a lot of things to do about this trade. Ask yourself “Who is the most desperate?”, and try to engage them to overpay. Cleveland is desperate. Oklahoma City is desperate. San Antonio is desperate. The Clippers are likely desperate. Boston might be desperate also. Houston is creative and might do something to get Paul, and they are likely willing to gamble big on a rental. Those teams are desperate for a chance at beating the Warriors and/or Cavs. But other teams are desperate for other reasons. Denver might be sick of losing and be willing to make a move that could at least get them to the playoffs. New Orleans has got to be feeling queasy by now. Miami is always willing to gamble the future for the present, even though a deal with them would make me gag. Taking advantage of desperate teams is always good.

    10. You know what else is good? Taking advantage of dumb teams. That’s why we should call the Knicks and Kings and see what we can make happen with them. Both those teams are borderline crazy and worth a call. Boston got to where they are by taking advantage of a dumb and desperate combination of a team in Brooklyn….we should try to do the same.

    11. We should look for small little hidden values in any trade we get, that might not payoff until far in the future. We should get as many “rights to swap picks” as far in the future as possible, and I am willing to take a lot of future picks for Paul as well. Future picks keep your cheap pipeline of talent flowing and give you assets to make other moves. I’d want pick swap rights in 2020, 2021, 2022, etc etc, and any future picks you can get, even if they are so far ahead in the future that you can’t even imagine them yet.

    12. We should not be cheap, and try and buy an extra pick in the late first round/early 2nd round. We should also probably try and trade Thad Young for a pick either in this draft or in next years draft. That could help get us younger and cheaper, which we need, and it would also make us worse….which we also need.

    13. Lastly, if we trade Paul George, the time to do this has reached us:

    I don’t think we need to do a massive 5 year Philly type suck fest, but you need elite talent to compete for titles, and the draft is the way to get it. There are premium talents coming in the next draft, we need to give ourselves the best chance to get them.

    14. I know I am not a huge Myles Turner fan, and I stand by my wanting Devin Booker over him on draft night….something I still think I am right about. But having said that, Turner is the future now. We need to spend this entire year feeding him as many shots as possible, and pushing him to expand his game to see how best to build around him. “How does this help Myles Turner get better?”, should be the question we ask ourselves in this trade and in every other decision we make this summer.

    15. Back to the draft profiles and previews in the morning. I am going to still continue previewing possible players for pick #18, but rest assured that I have extensive notes on most players considered previously way out of our range, and if we indeed somehow magically end up with a higher selection than 18 before Thursday, I’ll have info ready to go, hopefully before the draft but if not the day after.

    Tbird
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

    As always I enjoy your write ups. Also as always I agree with most of what you say, however there are a couple of issues I have here.

    1. I understand that there is now a thought making its way around the internet that the Pacers might be the ones who leaked this in some diabolical mad genius scenario as you have described. However the one thing that makes this idea a complete head scratcher for me is why in the world would we put it out that he would most likely only go to LA? Wouldn't this automatically make any team who was looking to pursue him take a step back if they did not feel like they were able to sign him to an extension right here and right now? I mean as an example let's just say the Blazers felt like they could make a title run with him and had the assets to bring him in. Wouldn't they now be less inclined to seriously work on a deal believing that Paul, no matter what, is going to go to LA?

    If the part about LA had not been present in all of this then I would buy that the Pacers leaked this but between the fact that it makes no sense to include LA and Nate Taylor reporting that the Pacers until yesterday were operating under the idea of building around Paul, I just can't believe this one.

    2. As to building and the future now that we have a path? I mean sure I can understand the idea of hope but the reality is pretty simple. In the NBA to compete at high levels you have to have star players and ideally one or two superstar players. As of now, officially, our team has one and he has now made it known he does not want to be here. That leaves us looking at what we have left. Well we have Myles Turner, who may or may not be a star in the league going forward however I think most of us agree superstar is not on the table probably anymore. And then we have nothing after that. Seriously, we have nothing of value after that other than a guy who won a slam dunk contest who looks like he might be able to be a decent 3 & D guy and after that? Thad Young might net you a low level first round pick but that's it.

    Our cub-bards are bare and unless we can haul in a real steal in way of assets for Paul we are going to struggle mightily for a long time.

    Here is where we agree, ownership bothers me now and it has never bothered me before. Bird was not the one to not tank, I mean he may not have wanted to either but in the end this goes back to Walsh and Herb. They just do not think the team can survive years of tanking, which they might be right who knows.

    What scares me is that the team will go out and get more middling players to fill out the roster with the idea of once again "making the playoffs".

    All I can say is that Larry Bird did an absolutely horrible job over the past 3 seasons and we are in the mess we are in now because of him.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    • #3
      Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

      It's true that this scenario is better than if we had kept PG and he walked next season, like Durant did. And it could have been even worse if we had traded our pick and maybe even Turner too for veteran players in a vain attempt to convince PG. So in that sense, PG did the Pacers a favor but forcing the issue early.

      I personally don't think it's likely that the Pacers leaked this information, since I assume they have other more discreet ways to spread the word among NBA decision makers. This MO looks like it's coming from an agent or from a rival team.

      Agreed about Turner. Unless we somehow get a stud back in the PG trade, it's time we find out whether he's capable of being the featured player. It does free him a bit IMO about concerns on his lack of strength and rebounding. Presumably we'd want to exploit his unique skills now as an offensive player, and just plan around his weaknesses.

      And I'll add also that it could be a good time to take on bad contracts in exchange for extra draft picks. The contracts of Monta (essentially expiring) and Al Jeff (partial guarantee next season) should be useful for this purpose.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

        Originally posted by wintermute View Post
        I personally don't think it's likely that the Pacers leaked this information, since I assume they have other more discreet ways to spread the word among NBA decision makers. This MO looks like it's coming from an agent or from a rival team.
        Exactly. The only reason for the franchise to leak it is to turn public opinion against PG but I guarantee that never even entered their minds. There is absolutely nothing for the Pacers to gain by making it public, people are only hoping that's a scenario because it'd signal that we have some sort of upper hand. We don't.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

          Point number 2 is 100% spot on.

          Not exactly looking forward to point number 14, but it is truly the reality of the situation.

          Its an absolute shame what this team and this franchise has seemingly become since the 2012-2014 seasons.

          The team never reloaded on star caliber or younger talent and is now a team full of underachieving/underperforming vets.

          The next week should be extremely interesting. The fate of the franchise's immediate future could be set within the next few days

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

            let Teague walk, what's the point in keeping him, and run Lance and Myles pick and pops 100 times a game. seriously, Lance Stephenson starting point guard, let it happen. trade Thad too. big fan of the guy but it's just a waste having him, move him for a 20ish pick.

            Lance/GR3/rookie/rookie/Myles, if we're gonna win 22 games may as well have fun with it.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

              You leak it in order to raise the interest in other teams. Every exec in the NBA considers themselves to be smarter than every other exec. and the one that can make PG fall in love with them and their team. You are also putting the pressure on PG to confirm or deny this reported desire to leave. Perhaps he was stalling with the Pacers and they wanted a more definitive answer before the draft.
              Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                Originally posted by indygeezer View Post
                You leak it in order to raise the interest in other teams. Every exec in the NBA considers themselves to be smarter than every other exec. and the one that can make PG fall in love with them and their team. You are also putting the pressure on PG to confirm or deny this reported desire to leave. Perhaps he was stalling with the Pacers and they wanted a more definitive answer before the draft.
                teams aren't relying on Woj to find out who's available.

                it's not a coincidence this came out the day after PG's last big public media availability event at the softball game. he's radio silent until his intro presser for the Lakers or whoever it is. guy's not giving a quote to Indy media until he comes here on the first road trip for his new team.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                  Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                  2. Here is a question: Many of you want hometown kid Gordon Heyward to sign with us in Indy, leaving his current team in Utah just to sign with the Pacers because he grew up in Brownsburg and went to college in Butler. Why is that perfectly fine, but it is causing some of you to be so angry at Paul George, who apparently feels the same way about his hometown. Why the double standard? In reality, if Utah loses Heyward, they will likely have gotten nothing for him, as he would be leaving them rather high and dry. In this case, with this warning he is giving us well enough time to get something for him. It seems to me the vitriol toward George is ill conceived, at least the level of it.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                  Its not the same situation. Last summer, Hayward didnt tell his fan base he wanted to bring a championship to Utah. He didnt pose with former Utah Allstars and talk about Utah being his team and he and the Utah GM being on the same page. Only for 2 days later to let a story leak out that he told the Utah GM he would be leaving the following year.

                  Its not THAT hes leaving. Its HOW hes leaving. Either be up front about it or dont talk about it with the media. This whole damn thing would have been a lot easier to take had he not did what he did on Thursday at the softball game.
                  "THIS IS MY CITY."- PAUL GEORGE

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                    Getting the highly overrated Kevin Love for PG is worse than just letting him walk. I am pretty frustrated with ownership but I also understand. Its just a reality we have to face, the Pacers will never put together a super-team, they will never go into the tax to keep a good enough roster to win a title. So as a fan what to do, I know beyond a doubt that the Pacers will not contend for a title ever. That era of the NBA is over the luxury tax was supposed to even the playing field but in reality it has made is so teams with owners willing to pay it will win titles and those that do not will not.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                      Originally posted by perryb85 View Post
                      This whole damn thing would have been a lot easier to take had he not did what he did on Thursday at the softball game.
                      C'mon, Don't be so dramatic. We've all known that this was going to happen. Some of you were just still in denial for the last year. Honestly, I'm relieved. Build through the draft. Build people that want to be here. If he doesn't want to be here, "Bye Felisha!" Honestly I'm relieved this drama is over. Hopefully he's gone before the draft and we focus on the future.
                      Indiana State University Alum. Hardcore Pacers fan. Racecar Driver in need of sponsorship.

                      www.jjhughesracing.com

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                        Originally posted by Guardshock View Post
                        C'mon, Don't be so dramatic. We've all known that this was going to happen. Some of you were just still in denial for the last year. Honestly, I'm relieved. Build through the draft. Build people that want to be here. If he doesn't want to be here, "Bye Felisha!" Honestly I'm relieved this drama is over. Hopefully he's gone before the draft and we focus on the future.
                        If, as was stated by Woj, this was the first time PG's camp informed the Pacers directly that this was going to happen, then no. We didn't all KNOW it was going to happen. If Paul or his camp had been this direct rather than using leaks and innuendo, many things would have changed. I mean, you must need to lump Myles Turner into the "really stupid people" camp because he said he thought PG was staying, which means his teammates really didn't know either.

                        What if we'd traded him at the deadline and it turned out to be based on unfounded rumors? What if he'd made all-NBA? There are so many ways this could have gone down prior to now. Paul waiting until now to inform the Pacers sucks, but it could have been salvaged if some ******* hadn't leaked it - and I do not think that ******* is in the Pacers FO.
                        BillS

                        A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                        Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                        • #13
                          Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                          I don't mind Paul leaving. I totally understand that Paul wants to play for his hometown team. I am hoping Gordon Hayward has the same feeling. What bothers me is that he (or someone) leaked it to the media and he played up the fact that he wants to go to the Lakers. That has really hurt his trade value. In my opinion, the proper thing to do would be to keep it quiet, tell the front office that he wanted to go to the Lakers and let them make a deal.

                          Maybe I am crazy, but I think we may have a shot at Hayward...not necessarily a good shot, but a shot none the less. If rumors are correct that LeBron is going to the Lakers in the summer of 2018 and we trade Paul to the Lakers, they would become contenders pretty quickly. The Spurs are always tough and Golden State looks like the team to beat for the next few years. It will be tough for the Jazz to make it to the WCF let alone the NBA Finals. The Pacers on the other hand, with Hayward and Turner and who knows who else, in a weaker Eastern Confernec, should have a decent shot at getting to the ECF and maybe the NBA Finals. That along with playing for his hometown team may entice Hayward to return home.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                            Originally posted by Guardshock View Post
                            C'mon, Don't be so dramatic. We've all known that this was going to happen. Some of you were just still in denial for the last year. Honestly, I'm relieved. Build through the draft. Build people that want to be here. If he doesn't want to be here, "Bye Felisha!" Honestly I'm relieved this drama is over. Hopefully he's gone before the draft and we focus on the future.
                            Its not dramatic. Its the truth. I was so relieved, as were many others, not to have to deal with rumors and BS when he made his comments on Thursday. To turn around and hear the news on Sunday, its just a slap in the face. You just don't treat a fan base that way. I'm part of several Pacers groups and the majority were ecstatic after Thursday evening because people thought maybe we had a chance to contend. People thought Paul had been convinced to give us one more shot and see what happens. If Paul was convinced that Prich had a plan, maybe something was brewing.

                            It would be one thing if Paul made all these comments back in April after getting swept in the playoffs. I could have understood if he would have let his emotions cool and then realized he wanted to go to the Lakers. But to basically pull a 180 in 72 hours, that just screams of selfishness.
                            "THIS IS MY CITY."- PAUL GEORGE

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tbird Topics, June 19, 2017 edition: Thoughts/observations/questions on the latest Paul George news

                              Paul's or his handlers leaked the information in advance of the draft to a) limit what the Lakers might give up and b) ensure that if he's traded during the draft that teams know he's a rental upfront rather than get upset with him later.

                              At the celebrity softball game, he said what he did to avoid having to explain it. Now he's out of the spotlight and isn't going to be available for questioning.

                              So yeh, Paul wants to leave. He wants things to be convenient for him. He wants his future team to keep its assets. By gutting his value he accomplishes that at the Pacer's and Pacer fan's expenses.

                              Edit: Oh, and yes it is time to panic. If there were ever time to panic it is right now.
                              Last edited by BlueNGold; 06-19-2017, 01:18 PM.

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