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Thread: Pistons have 5 allstar players

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Pistons have 5 allstar players

    So many people and so many Pistons fans don't seem to realize how good the Pistons players are. Sure they don't have a "Superstar", but they have 5 allstars. All 5 of their starters should be in the allstar game. The reason why none of them are considered superstars is because they all play a team game and they have 4 other allstar caliber players playing alongside them.

    Look at it this way. If you ask me, Ben Wallace was the Pistons 5th best player in the Heat series, and yet he's the one who makes the allstar team every year.

    Billups and Rip make up the best backcourt in the NBA. Tay might be the Pistons most consistant and maybe their most important player, at least you could make that argument.

    Let me end this short post with Sheed. If you ask me he is their best player, their most talented player, if he wanted to he could average 25 points a game, he could be an allstar every year, he could be a Superstar. Now you can criticize him for maybe not applying himself to be the best he can be. But he is a fantastic player.

    One last thing, the next time I see someone suggest that Dirk is a top 5 player, or even a top 10 player, I'm going to puke. Sheed is a better all around player than Dirk. Sheed is better in every area except one: shooting.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Dirk is grossly overrated. The guy just doesn't play defense at all

    It's too bad Rasheed never tried to be better than he could be. As someone pointed out before, he could be even better than Jermaine is.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    A question for Kstat: how is Prince contract situation? Has he been extended?

    If not, I think some teams may throw something close to a max in front of him.

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Won't argue with you UB - Prince probably doesn't deserve to be an all-star because of his role with the team but he's certainly all-star caliber which is what you're getting at.

    And if you look at McDyess and think about how much stronger his knee should be next season, you may be able to get to 6.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Golly, I hate posting. I only like to read you guys all day, but after the win by Detriot last night, I have to agree they are one of if not the best team in the league. Anyone that attempts to dispute that, Pacer's fans who hate them even, is just plain blind or ignorant (I will let each one of us decide for ourselves). However, I cannot just sit back, sorry UB, and let people, continue to buy into the fact the Detriot has the best backcourt.

    I am tired of hearing it. Detriot is great because they have the best FRONTCOURT. With Tay, Sheed, and Ben...damn! There is not team in this league that I would rather their frontcourt over the Pistons, hell throw in an allstar in McDyess and see anyone else argue that. (I am not even touching the Dirk argument, though I agree). Now if you are making me taking only a Center and a PF, I might take Duncan and Mohammad, who I think is playing great. I might take a Garnett-Sprewell if I need a 3 and 4, but if I need to pick the best 3-4-5, I am going to have to take the Pistons frontcourt.

    However, this season, and leading up strongly into the playoffs, every commentator was bought out to mention how Detriot has the best beckcourt. I grant you that they are tops in the league, maybe top 3 even, but look here at some of the contenders:

    Celtics: Gary Payton, Paul Pierce
    Nets: Jason Kidd, Vince Carter
    Knicks: Stephon Marbury, Allen Houston
    76ers: Iverson, whoever.
    Bulls: Hinrich, Duhon
    Pistons: Rip, Chauncey
    Pacers: Tinsley, SJax
    Bucks: TJ Ford, Redd
    Heat: Damon Jones, D Wade
    Wizards: Arenas, Hughes
    Mavs: JT, Finley
    Rockets: TMac, whoever.
    Spurs: Parker, Ginobili
    Sonics: Ridnour, Ray Allen
    Lakers: Kobe, whoever.
    Suns: Nash, Q
    Kings: Bibby, Cat

    Give a couple of these teams, namely the Suns, the Nets, the Knicks, the Wizards, or the Mavs, hell even the Rockets, the best frontcourt in the league and think about what happens. I would much rather have Kidd, Vince, Sheed, Tay, and Ben over the current. Now I am going to hear the whole chemistry argument that says it wouldn't work, and I am going to hear much debate about how you can't compare the two. Would a two on two game decide it for you? Would you bet on Chauncey and Rip over Arenas and Hughes, because I sure wouldn't. Would you wager your house that Chauc and Rip could handle a challenge of Mike James and TMAc, because I wouldn't like to live on the street after I lost.

    Sure they are an amazing backcourt, I would say top three if I had to rank them in their current situations, given their current teams. However, in talent ability and an equal playing field where Joe Dumars isn't the best GM in the league, I think they are more top 10.

    However, in the current standings, I don't even think I take them over the current Spurs backcourt, and I think we will all see why in the next week. Give me Parker and Ginobili (who I despise) right now over Chauncey and Rip, because starting Thursday, they will be outplaying the 'best backcourt' in the entire league.

    I guess I should give my top 3 at this point and they would be:
    Spurs, Nets, Pistons. Followed closely by a charging Wizards.

  6. #6
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    i agree as well....this is one of the reasons i feel ben wallace is so overrated....because he plays with such a great team that allows him to do a couple of things only and do them really really well....

    if im building a team, i take prince, sheed and rip over wallace any day....(god did i just say id take sheed?? sigh) and billups and ben wallace would be a tossup....

    and dont take this as a diss on ben...its not the intent...i do find it ironic that he is the one that gets most of the recognition when it comes to awards and allstar/allnba teams...

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by BayouPacer
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    Golly, I hate posting. I only like to read you guys all day, but after the win by Detriot last night, I have to agree they are one of if not the best team in the league. Anyone that attempts to dispute that, Pacer's fans who hate them even, is just plain blind or ignorant (I will let each one of us decide for ourselves). However, I cannot just sit back, sorry UB, and let people, continue to buy into the fact the Detriot has the best backcourt.

    I am tired of hearing it. Detriot is great because they have the best FRONTCOURT. With Tay, Sheed, and Ben...damn! There is not team in this league that I would rather their frontcourt over the Pistons, hell throw in an allstar in McDyess and see anyone else argue that. (I am not even touching the Dirk argument, though I agree). Now if you are making me taking only a Center and a PF, I might take Duncan and Mohammad, who I think is playing great. I might take a Garnett-Sprewell if I need a 3 and 4, but if I need to pick the best 3-4-5, I am going to have to take the Pistons frontcourt.

    However, this season, and leading up strongly into the playoffs, every commentator was bought out to mention how Detriot has the best beckcourt. I grant you that they are tops in the league, maybe top 3 even, but look here at some of the contenders:

    Celtics: Gary Payton, Paul Pierce
    Nets: Jason Kidd, Vince Carter
    Knicks: Stephon Marbury, Allen Houston
    76ers: Iverson, whoever.
    Bulls: Hinrich, Duhon
    Pistons: Rip, Chauncey
    Pacers: Tinsley, SJax
    Bucks: TJ Ford, Redd
    Heat: Damon Jones, D Wade
    Wizards: Arenas, Hughes
    Mavs: JT, Finley
    Rockets: TMac, whoever.
    Spurs: Parker, Ginobili
    Sonics: Ridnour, Ray Allen
    Lakers: Kobe, whoever.
    Suns: Nash, Q
    Kings: Bibby, Cat

    Give a couple of these teams, namely the Suns, the Nets, the Knicks, the Wizards, or the Mavs, hell even the Rockets, the best frontcourt in the league and think about what happens. I would much rather have Kidd, Vince, Sheed, Tay, and Ben over the current. Now I am going to hear the whole chemistry argument that says it wouldn't work, and I am going to hear much debate about how you can't compare the two. Would a two on two game decide it for you? Would you bet on Chauncey and Rip over Arenas and Hughes, because I sure wouldn't. Would you wager your house that Chauc and Rip could handle a challenge of Mike James and TMAc, because I wouldn't like to live on the street after I lost.

    Sure they are an amazing backcourt, I would say top three if I had to rank them in their current situations, given their current teams. However, in talent ability and an equal playing field where Joe Dumars isn't the best GM in the league, I think they are more top 10.

    However, in the current standings, I don't even think I take them over the current Spurs backcourt, and I think we will all see why in the next week. Give me Parker and Ginobili (who I despise) right now over Chauncey and Rip, because starting Thursday, they will be outplaying the 'best backcourt' in the entire league.

    I guess I should give my top 3 at this point and they would be:
    Spurs, Nets, Pistons. Followed closely by a charging Wizards.
    ive said it before...ben wallace is the third best defender in the pistons front court...period...the reason hes gets all the pub is because the other two allow him to freelance unlike any other really good defender in the league....most every outstanding front court defender plays the other teams best offensive front court player....not usually the case with ben....sheed and tay need no real help playing their men...and because ben usually has the worst offensive option he is much more free to help and forgive any mistakes that might be made....very, very interesting situation they have in detroit with that frontcourt...the 3 time dpoy is the third best defender on his own frontline...and if im picking a team i definitely pick sheed and tay over ben as far as production and talent on the floor is concerned...

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    .......so we have people arguing the pistons backcourt is overrated, and then someone else saying their FRONTcourt is overated....

    hey, I don't really care where they rank in the NBA, all I care about is winning games. And no matter what position you look at on the Pistons, they do it better than almost anybody.

    All 5 guys sacrifice stats in order to win games. Thats why I dont put much stock into how our backcourt or frontcourt scores.

    -Ben, with non-rebounders like cliff robinson and Curry next to him, was able to lead the league in rebounding AND blocked shots. He scarificed some extra boards and blocks when Tay and Rasheed came aboard.

    -Tay could be a 17-8-4-2-2 guy. EASY. Put him ona lesser team, make him the #2 option every game, and he can give you great stats in all 5 catagories. But on the Pistons, he can afford to defeer when teamates have better mismatches.

    -Billups could get you 21 and 4, or 18 and 8, even on most GOOD teams. He's also the best clutch shooter in the NBA right now.

    -Rip is getting better every year. Make him a #1 option, and he averages 25 a night without breaking a sweat. He shows this in the playoffs, when the bench plays less, and he becomes more of an option.

    -Rasheed was already a multiple-time allstar on lesser teams. He hasn't gotten any worse, he's just deferred to win games. But as he showed in game 7, he can take over a game whenever he wants to.

    Again, look at the bad boys in 1989. They had a HOF coach, a HOFer in Zeke, the best rebounder of all tiem in dennis, and a future HOFer in Dumars.

    Nobody on that team averaged over 20ppg. Nobody averaged more than 10 assists. Nobody averaged over 10 rebounds.

    They all sacrificed numbers to win games.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Ron actually has freelanced a lot less since Carlisle came here. Ron used to be a much better team defender, now he's more of an individual defender. It's okay, though, because we actually have a team defensive scheme. So the team D is much better. Basically, you could make the case that we only had a good team D under Thomas because Zeke allowed Ron to freelance, and not because our team defensive concepts were any good.
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    .......so we have people arguing the pistons backcourt is overrated, and then someone else saying their FRONTcourt is overated....

    hey, I don't really care where they rank in the NBA, all I care about is winning games. And no matter what position you look at on the Pistons, they do it better than almost anybody.

    I couldn't agree more KStat. And hell, you should be proud and happy all day every day as your team takes center stage in the greatest arena, with possibly one of the greatest matchups I have ever witnessed in my 23 years of brief life. I don't see this going any less then 7. It will be amazing basketball all the way through.

    But as an aside, as a true Pistons fan, do you believe that the backcourt you guys have is the 'best' in the league. Hell, I understand that you could have the worse and if the team is right you would certainly be in as good of a position to win a title as any other team in history. I just think that the constant media view of the Pistons having the best backcourt is shortsighted in light of their victory last year. If the Spurs had any real media attention, I am sure I would have hear it a ton last year about Parker and Ginobili right up to the point that the Lakers knocked them out.

    I just wonder how an honest Piston's fan feels about this team persona labels as such by the media in most instances. So feel free to respond, or not, I am more curious at this point than anything.

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by BayouPacer
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    But as an aside, as a true Pistons fan, do you believe that the backcourt you guys have is the 'best' in the league. Hell, I understand that you could have the worse and if the team is right you would certainly be in as good of a position to win a title as any other team in history. I just think that the constant media view of the Pistons having the best backcourt is shortsighted in light of their victory last year. If the Spurs had any real media attention, I am sure I would have hear it a ton last year about Parker and Ginobili right up to the point that the Lakers knocked them out.

    I just wonder how an honest Piston's fan feels about this team persona labels as such by the media in most instances. So feel free to respond, or not, I am more curious at this point than anything.
    We have the only intact backout in the NBA thats won a title before. Manu was on the spurs in 03, but he wasn't starting. And Tony Parker was splitting time with claxton in the finals. In 04, Parker and Ginoboli got MANHANDLED by Payton and Kobe in the last 4 games of their series.

    Is Billup-Rip the most talented backcourt? I'm not sure. But they do have the best CHEMISTRY, without a doubt. And that trumps talent in a 7-game series.

    as for overrated-underrated labels, I don't buy much into it. Why should I, really, when my team keeps winning playoff series?

    Would I like to see someone besides Ben get into an all-star game someday? Sure. But There are 21 all-stars sitting at home right now that would GLADLY forfit their allstar berth to still be playing right now.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Smile Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    We have the only intact backout in the NBA thats won a title before. Manu was on the spurs in 03, but he wasn't starting. And Tony Parker was splitting time with claxton in the finals. In 04, Parker and Ginoboli got MANHANDLED by Payton and Kobe in the last 4 games of their series.

    Is Billup-Rip the most talented backcourt? I'm not sure. But they do have the best CHEMISTRY, without a doubt. And that trumps talent in a 7-game series.

    as for overrated-underrated labels, I don't buy much into it. Why should I, really, when my team keeps winning playoff series?

    As I said previously, you certainly shouldn't. And I believe I mentioned that the chemistry would be an issue and no doubt it has the biggest effect for the Pistons than any other team. If you would have told me 5 years ago, Rasheed could go to a team and be the player he is now, with the issues I saw from him in Portland (while still an amazing player) I would have had to laugh at you. For Chauncey to rise from his previous situations to become the clutch 4th quarter player he is now, so reliable and capable of be a leader/hero even, I wouldn't have thunk it! It you would have told me, after watching Tay in college, that he would actually become a FORCE in the NBA with his body type, I would have said he would be limited to 210-25 minutes a night, making a good impact of of some teams bench. As for Rip, if he continues his consistency and continues to play at the level I have grown accustomed to watching him at the past 2-3 years, Detriot will be a force to reckon with for a while. As for Ben, good job!

    As for my initial post, I just get frustrated so much by the media, and to hear UB make the statement he did, I just feared he made his statement having been influenced by the commentators that seem to penatrate the minds of honest basketball fans (just kidding UB, though I wouldn't mind for you to expand upon your label of Rip and Chauncey).

    Damn the Pistons in all their glory!!!

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by BayouPacer
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    I couldn't agree more KStat. And hell, you should be proud and happy all day every day as your team takes center stage in the greatest arena, with possibly one of the greatest matchups I have ever witnessed in my 23 years of brief life. I don't see this going any less then 7. It will be amazing basketball all the way through.

    But as an aside, as a true Pistons fan, do you believe that the backcourt you guys have is the 'best' in the league. Hell, I understand that you could have the worse and if the team is right you would certainly be in as good of a position to win a title as any other team in history. I just think that the constant media view of the Pistons having the best backcourt is shortsighted in light of their victory last year. If the Spurs had any real media attention, I am sure I would have hear it a ton last year about Parker and Ginobili right up to the point that the Lakers knocked them out.

    I just wonder how an honest Piston's fan feels about this team persona labels as such by the media in most instances. So feel free to respond, or not, I am more curious at this point than anything.
    I'll respond this way. As a Pistons fan, if you asked me to give you ONE main reason why the Pistons are an elite championship contending team, my answer would be this: The defensive dominance of Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, and Ben Wallace. They're suffocating. I think Peck or UB said that it's the best defensive frontcourt in NBA history.

    As far as the backcourt, Rip and Chauncey are right there with Parker-Ginobili, Nash-Joe Johnson, Arenas-Hughes, and Kidd-Carter. I really don't think any of those 5 are significantly better than the other (maybe Kidd-Carter. Maybe). JMO.

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by shags
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    I'll respond this way. As a Pistons fan, if you asked me to give you ONE main reason why the Pistons are an elite championship contending team, my answer would be this: The defensive dominance of Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, and Ben Wallace. They're suffocating. I think Peck or UB said that it's the best defensive frontcourt in NBA history.

    As far as the backcourt, Rip and Chauncey are right there with Parker-Ginobili, Nash-Joe Johnson, Arenas-Hughes, and Kidd-Carter. I really don't think any of those 5 are significantly better than the other (maybe Kidd-Carter. Maybe). JMO.
    Sounds like the two of us need to go out and get a drink, because we I now know I am not the only one thinking the way I do, your four match mind. Do you like steak?

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Let me end this short post with Sheed. If you ask me he is their best player, their most talented player, if he wanted to he could average 25 points a game, he could be an allstar every year, he could be a Superstar. Now you can criticize him for maybe not applying himself to be the best he can be. But he is a fantastic player.

    One last thing, the next time I see someone suggest that Dirk is a top 5 player, or even a top 10 player, I'm going to puke. Sheed is a better all around player than Dirk. Sheed is better in every area except one: shooting.
    I was thinking this last night and today too. I think Rasheed Wallace might be the best ROLE PLAYER since James Worthy. Sheed doesn't want to be a star; he just wants to play a role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shags
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    As far as the backcourt, Rip and Chauncey are right there with Parker-Ginobili, Nash-Joe Johnson, Arenas-Hughes, and Kidd-Carter. I really don't think any of those 5 are significantly better than the other (maybe Kidd-Carter. Maybe). JMO.
    Agree.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    I think Rip and Chauncey make up the back backcourt in the NBA mainly due to their defense and offensive consistency. Now if you are looking for the best overall offensive back-court, I can give you 5 other tandems of guys who are better then Chauncey and Rip.

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Ron actually has freelanced a lot less since Carlisle came here. Ron used to be a much better team defender, now he's more of an individual defender. It's okay, though, because we actually have a team defensive scheme. So the team D is much better. Basically, you could make the case that we only had a good team D under Thomas because Zeke allowed Ron to freelance, and not because our team defensive concepts were any good.

    I don't won't to get off on this tangent, but I don't agre with you, in fact I think just the opposite. Ron was a better team defender under Carlisle. Under isiah he locked in on his own man and was not into the team thing

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I don't won't to get off on this tangent, but I don't agre with you, in fact I think just the opposite. Ron was a better team defender under Carlisle. Under isiah he locked in on his own man and was not into the team thing
    :cough: You're using past tense in reference to RA :cough:

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I don't won't to get off on this tangent, but I don't agre with you, in fact I think just the opposite. Ron was a better team defender under Carlisle. Under isiah he locked in on his own man and was not into the team thing
    I'm in no place to disagree with you on Ron's defense. And I agree that Ron is a better defender now than he was then.

    But Carlisle agrees with me. So there.

    I know it doesn't mean anything, but Ron's steals are down slightly since Carlisle took over.
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    -Billups could get you 21 and 4, or 18 and 8, even on most GOOD teams. He's also the best clutch shooter in the NBA right now.

    Yeah, but Horry is the best clutch "hitter," right now.

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    I remember starting a thread last year at this time about how the Pistons defense was the best I had ever seen. I don't think it is quite as good this season because Mike James is gone)

    But I suggested the front line was the best I had seen. Overall I posted the Pistons defense was better than the Bad Boy Pistons, the Bulls of the 90's, the Spurs of the past 5 years or so and the Knicks of the 90's

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Dirk is grossly overrated. The guy just doesn't play defense at all

    It's too bad Rasheed never tried to be better than he could be. As someone pointed out before, he could be even better than Jermaine is.
    You mean he's not?

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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    With the exception of the first half of the 2003-04 season, I've never thought JO was better than 'Sheed. Even in the midst of all of 'Sheed's problems in Portland, he was still consistently a top-ten player.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pistons have 5 allstar players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    .......so we have people arguing the pistons backcourt is overrated, and then someone else saying their FRONTcourt is overated....

    hey, I don't really care where they rank in the NBA, all I care about is winning games. And no matter what position you look at on the Pistons, they do it better than almost anybody.

    All 5 guys sacrifice stats in order to win games. Thats why I dont put much stock into how our backcourt or frontcourt scores.


    The rest edited out by Bball

    What you have is the best GM in the business who is not afraid to work the phones or ride the razor's edge..."Standing pat" is not in his vocabulary and historically he's not been one to let mistakes go unchecked (see note below). When you have that it's funny how the other stuff just comes together.

    NOTE: The jury is still out on Darko but the fat lady IS warming up in the dressing room.

    Congrats on another deep playoff run, Kstat.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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