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Thread: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Super teams have drained at least half of my interest in the NBA. They have ruined the league. I honestly wouldn't even want to be a fan of teams like the warriors or patriots. What's the fun in winning every year? Yes I'm aware most of you will think I'm insane for thinking that.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    I'd like to point out, the main reason Golden State was able to sign KD and build this super-super team was due to a cap irregularity, the fact there was no cap smoothing and the cap jumped 20 million one year. That is something the players fought very hard for and something that had never happened before, and is likely to never happen again. If anything the cap will go down.

    While it was a factor that was necessary to make it happen, it really isn't the main reason for it. The main reason is because there is no hard cap, and there is a max salary. Give the league a hard cap, get rid of the max salary, and the climate of the league most likely changes to something a bit less top heavy. A less top heavy league may give Durant a sense that he can win a championship in OKC (most likely would have won one already to be honest), causing him to give preference to returning to OKC over forming a super team which may have been much more difficult if Curry had signed a much larger deal when he was a free agent.

    Right now with a max contract and a soft cap, the NBA salary curve is compressed. The highest paid players are paid less than what they would be paid if there was no max, while the lowest paid players are paid more than they would be if the highest paid players were paid fair market value. This has a ripple effect at all pay levels to where you see a player like Solo Hill get paid 2 or 3 times as much as he is valuable to his team. Get rid of the max and have a hard cap, and that pay curve will spread out. In order to get fair market value, talent will have to spread out throughout the league instead of concentrating on 2 or 3 teams. The only way to form a super team would be for players to take 50% less to their fair market value. While you might see duos team up, you would rarely, if ever, see anymore big 3s. Most secondary and role players will be paid closer to the value they bring to the team making their salaries less burdensome if a team wants to move on from such a player.

    Basically level the financial playing field, and most of the biggest issues fix themselves.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Do you know why everyone has a three point shot today? Because of the repeal of the illegal defense rule 15 years ago. The one dimensional defensive player has been replaced by the one dimensional shooter. Spacing is at a premium because you can sag off on whoever the hell you want now, as opposed to 20 years ago when, you could park Joe Kline in the corner and another defender had to follow him out there while Charles Barkley had the paint all to himself. Now it's very easy to defend the post, discouraging players from actually developing those skills. Meanwhile it's twice as hard to create spacing, so the non shooters are a detriment.

    All of this because fans overreacted to Shaq fouling out entire front lines in the NBA playoffs, which turned into contests to see if he could make FTs that night. So they *****ed that it should be easier to double team him and Kobe on the ISO-heavy Lakers. Did it help? No, but down the road it made it harder for the next skilled post players to get any traction, and they eventually got weeded out in favor of stretch fours.

    As I said in my post the game has always been tinkered with and some changes were good and some were bad. You said leave the game alone earlier. Maybe the changes should have stopped in the 50's. Changes will continue to be made. I like Bills idea. Maybe help bring back a little of the bigman skills that have been replaced by power forward skills. You are arguing for and against change. Which one are you for?
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    As I said in my post the game has always been tinkered with and some changes were good and some were bad. You said leave the game alone earlier. Maybe the changes should have stopped in the 50's. Changes will continue to be made. I like Bills idea. Maybe help bring back a little of the bigman skills that have been replaced by power forward skills. You are arguing for and against change. Which one are you for?
    I'm for not repeating past mistakes. Most of these suggestions are not progressive, they're regressive. I'm into changes that add things instead of "fix" things. 50 years ago dunking was banned because it was considered an unfair advantage to tall people. Don't be a prisoner of the moment.

    Change is not a bad thing, but be innovative with it. Come up with a new idea to augment the game instead of looking for ways to take away the three pointer.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 12:39 PM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    We all knew how this season was going to end up as soon as Durant joined GSW. The league has no competitiveness right now and it sucks. There are at least 28 irrelevant teams.
    Pacers fan since April 9th 2004 - New Jersey 80 Indiana 90.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Change is not a bad thing, but be innovative with it. Come up with a new idea to augment the game instead of looking for ways to take away the three pointer.
    I want to augment the game by improving defense without going back to grabby-slappy on the perimeter.

    Increasing scoring is not the only way to add to the game.
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    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I want to augment the game by improving defense without going back to grabby-slappy on the perimeter.

    Increasing scoring is not the only way to add to the game.
    Except you're not improving anything. You're just decreasing the range of the floor that is worth 3 points, which just artificially ruins spacing. Teams will still try to get threes, it'll just be uglier in a smaller space.

    Try coming up with an idea that doesn't change the 3 point line.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ruins spacing
    I don't get this. You're implying spacing didn't exist before the 3-pt line was implemented or before players got focused on long-range shooting.

    I'm CHANGING spacing. I really don't think we're going to see nothing but 5 guys clustered along the arc with 5 defenders standing in front of them. If nothing else that brings back guys driving to the basket unopposed once they take their man off the dribble.

    Your argument against it seems to be based on the idea that having the entire offense rely on the 3 point shot is such a positive that making it easier to defend is bad.

    I think we should get to the point where the eFG% approaches the overall FG% so that you go back to having the ability to have multiple strategies. The imbalance comes because the percentage of makeable shots from the corners is too high for the bonus point it is given.

    You've proposed bringing back illegal defense, which "takes away" the double team. Every proposal other than silly things like adding a 4-pt shot "takes away" something.
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    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    There is not a way to stop the "super teams" from happening unless you take away Free Agency and that won't happen nor should it happen.

    One thing that I think would help would be to has hard cap. Right now teams can have an unlimited salary...as long as they are willing to pay the tax.

    A hard cap would somewhat level the playing field. Looking at the Pacers for example. If there were a hard cap of $121 million, they could affford to pay 2 max players (like PG and Hayward) and still have $60 million to fill out the roster. As it is set up now, they have to jump through hoops and use exemptions to be able to do that.

    It will still be tough for small market teams as most stars would rather play in LA, NY or Miami than an Indiana or Memphis. There will also be some stars that will be willing to take less than their market value in order to play with their buddies or for a contender. But I still think a hard salary cap is a move that should be made.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    While it was a factor that was necessary to make it happen, it really isn't the main reason for it. The main reason is because there is no hard cap, and there is a max salary. Give the league a hard cap, get rid of the max salary, and the climate of the league most likely changes to something a bit less top heavy. A less top heavy league may give Durant a sense that he can win a championship in OKC (most likely would have won one already to be honest), causing him to give preference to returning to OKC over forming a super team which may have been much more difficult if Curry had signed a much larger deal when he was a free agent.

    Right now with a max contract and a soft cap, the NBA salary curve is compressed. The highest paid players are paid less than what they would be paid if there was no max, while the lowest paid players are paid more than they would be if the highest paid players were paid fair market value. This has a ripple effect at all pay levels to where you see a player like Solo Hill get paid 2 or 3 times as much as he is valuable to his team. Get rid of the max and have a hard cap, and that pay curve will spread out. In order to get fair market value, talent will have to spread out throughout the league instead of concentrating on 2 or 3 teams. The only way to form a super team would be for players to take 50% less to their fair market value. While you might see duos team up, you would rarely, if ever, see anymore big 3s. Most secondary and role players will be paid closer to the value they bring to the team making their salaries less burdensome if a team wants to move on from such a player.

    Basically level the financial playing field, and most of the biggest issues fix themselves.
    YES!

    I didn't read this until after my post.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I don't get this. You're implying spacing didn't exist before the 3-pt line was implemented or before players got focused on long-range shooting.

    I'm CHANGING spacing. I really don't think we're going to see nothing but 5 guys clustered along the arc with 5 defenders standing in front of them. If nothing else that brings back guys driving to the basket unopposed once they take their man off the dribble.

    Your argument against it seems to be based on the idea that having the entire offense rely on the 3 point shot is such a positive that making it easier to defend is bad.

    I think we should get to the point where the eFG% approaches the overall FG% so that you go back to having the ability to have multiple strategies. The imbalance comes because the percentage of makeable shots from the corners is too high for the bonus point it is given.

    You've proposed bringing back illegal defense, which "takes away" the double team. Every proposal other than silly things like adding a 4-pt shot "takes away" something.
    I never proposed bringing illegal defense back. The ISO-heavy chess match is something I grew up with and I'm nostalgic for but I'm not in a rush to go backward. What's done is done.

    And while spacing existed prior to the three point shot, it was not good spacing. Compared to today, it was a joke. Plays at the basket were a mess and generally the best big man won every series, except for special circumstances. Jumpshooters were considered window dressing #2 options because the tallest athlete had the highest percentage chance to score. The game certainly wasn't any more "balanced" than it is now.

    FWIW, the three point shot was considered "silly" 50 years ago. The NBA looked down their nose at it for over a decade before they woke up and adopted it themselves.

    And your idea kills spacing. The corners become inefficient dead zones. Everyone would be either behind the arc or in front of the paint the entire game, and defenses would have an easy time defending that.

    Making it easier to defend the three is fine, but fundamentally changing the line itself is a step in the wrong direction.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 01:20 PM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    Hell, some of the bench and role players from back then are, IMO, better than a lot of the present starters. Some would argue that Kyrie, Klay Thompson, and Harden are top 10-15 best players in the league right now. To me, they're equivalent to:

    Kyrie = Mark Price
    Klay Tompson = Alvin Robertson
    James Harden = Dana Barros
    .

    Maybe I don't understand your point. But your comparisons are way off in two ways. The players who you are comparing are nothing like the players you are comparing them to. OK, so maybe that is not your point. Maybe you are just suggesting that Dana Barros is equally as good as James harden. Barros as good as Harden. Dana as good as James. OK, nope, no matter how I try to phrase it, they are not in the same class of player.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    As for rules of the game... I'd start by removing the 3 point line. It's always been a gimmick. Now it's an overused gimmick that has become too easy. Players that can shoot and score from deep would still be valuable, they just wouldn't be an advantage over teams that have solid inside play since by teams would be scoring 2 per basket instead of 1 team scoring 3 per basket.
    Defenses could still 'pick their poison', but if they choose wrong, it's at 2 points per trip, not 3.

    And while it's true that shooters can have an off night, at least without a reliance on the 3, a bad shot is only costing you a crack at 2 points for your offense versus 3 (that teams count on now).
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    I never proposed bringing illegal defense back. The ISO-heavy chess match is something I grew up with and I'm nostalgic for but I'm not in a rush to go backward. What's done is done.

    And while spacing existed prior to the three point shot, it was not good spacing. Compared to today, it was a joke. Plays at the basket were a mess and generally the best big man won every series, except for special circumstances. Jumpshooters were considered window dressing #2 options because the tallest athlete had the highest percentage chance to score. The game certainly wasn't any more "balanced" than it is now.

    FWIW, the three point shot was considered "silly" 50 years ago. The NBA looked down their nose at it for over a decade before they woke up and adopted it themselves.

    And your idea kills spacing. The corners become inefficient dead zones. Everyone would be either behind the arc or in front of the paint the entire game, and defenses would have an easy time defending that.

    Making it easier to defend the three is fine, but fundamentally changing the line itself is a step in the wrong direction.

    The reason the three has become more valuable is because players at all levels practice it now. Not because of defensive rule changes is my contention. It's value over the two has been duly noted by players and coaches.
    Plus defense is not a bad word and not regressive as you interpret it. Todays NBA is best suited to mobile, smaller players who can shoot. The scale has tilted to for in
    one direction. About the only changes that would be "progressive" would be a having 1,2,3,4, and 5 point shots or enlarging the floor or having 6 players or some other number.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Also the people that complain about the 3 point line are Reggie Miller and Danny Granger fans.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 06-09-2017 at 01:42 PM.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    I am fine to see how this current rule set up plays out over the next 5 years. But I suspect some changes are coming. What I do not like is the way players are all going to try and make super teams to try and get their ring because of the way the league is set up salary wise.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The reason the three has become more valuable is because players at all levels practice it now. Not because of defensive rule changes is my contention. It's value over the two has been duly noted by players and coaches.
    Plus defense is not a bad word and not regressive as you interpret it. Todays NBA is best suited to mobile, smaller players who can shoot. The scale has tilted to for in
    one direction. About the only changes that would be "progressive" would be a having 1,2,3,4, and 5 point shots or enlarging the floor or having 6 players or some other number.
    The scale has tilted towards shooting because being a small skinny guy that can't guard anyone isn't a death sentence like it was 20 years ago, when you were forced to guard your man.

    You think Steve Alford couldn't shoot? He washed out of the NBA in 10 minutes because he was a total liability on defense. Today he'd have a 15 year career spacing the floor.

    Shooting has improved because the NBA is prioritizing drafting shooters over guys that specialize in defense, rebounding or low post scoring. And since that's where the money is now many younger players are focusing on that instead of the other things.

    If the NBA adopted the same rules in 1980 as we have now, we would have seen better 3 point shooters in the 80's too.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    I'm for not repeating past mistakes. Most of these suggestions are not progressive, they're regressive. I'm into changes that add things instead of "fix" things. 50 years ago dunking was banned because it was considered an unfair advantage to tall people. Don't be a prisoner of the moment.

    Change is not a bad thing, but be innovative with it. Come up with a new idea to augment the game instead of looking for ways to take away the three pointer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Except you're not improving anything. You're just decreasing the range of the floor that is worth 3 points, which just artificially ruins spacing. Teams will still try to get threes, it'll just be uglier in a smaller space.

    Try coming up with an idea that doesn't change the 3 point line.
    You have a very narrow view of what improve means. Sometimes "progressive" changes are bad, and you need "regressive" changes to fix them. If you only implement progressive changes you eventually end up with blernsball. Change isn't bad, but sometimes that change should be removing or fixing a previous change.

    Yeah using a computer is more progressive than using pen and paper, but you are more likely to remember something if it is handwritten than if you typed it. So maybe sometimes it is better to use pen and paper so you are more likely to remember the information you wrote down.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The scale has tilted towards shooting because being a small skinny guy that can't guard anyone isn't a death sentence like it was 20 years ago, when you were forced to guard your man.

    You think Steve Alford couldn't shoot? He washed out of the NBA in 10 minutes because he was a total liability on defense. Today he'd have a 15 year career spacing the floor.

    Shooting has improved because the NBA is prioritizing drafting shooters over guys that specialize in defense, rebounding or low post scoring. And since that's where the money is now many younger players are focusing on that instead of the other things.

    If the NBA adopted the same rules in 1980 as we have now, we would have seen better 3 point shooters in the 80's too.
    Alford would still be out of the league. GS has one guy like you described in Curry but he has quickness and elite dribbling skills and all there other players in the starting five are taller and shooters and ELITE defenders. You still have to be able to defend to win big in this league.
    The reason shooters are being drafted is because coaches see the greater value in 3 point shooters. Not because of money. It starts in high school and players focusing on it because that wins games.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    In my opinion the NBA talent on this era >>> any other era, guards right now can dribble with both hands, can shoot and are pretty much unstoppable, I mean go ahead and watch videos of 80's basketball, those guys couldn't dribble to save their life and their outside shooting was not that great either.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Curry is not elite quick. He gets by people because he has to be picked up 40 feet from the hoop. His elite dribbling skills are also generally limited to step-back moves. He's elite in small spaces but Jason Kidd he is not.

    And to imply that it took coaches over 35 years to "see the value " in a 3 point shot is just absurd. That's beyond ridiculous.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    In my opinion the NBA talent on this era >>> any other era, guards right now can dribble with both hands, can shoot and are pretty much unstoppable, I mean go ahead and watch videos of 80's basketball, those guys couldn't dribble to save their life and their outside shooting was not that great either.
    Guards can dribble with both hands, huh? Impressive new tactic...

    I assure you I've seen more 80's basketball than you. There were a lot more players with 3 point range that had their percentages skewed. Teams didn't run plays to get guys open three point looks. Players didn't attempt many and a much larger percentage were half court heaves to end quarters, because no one cared about three point percentages back then.

    Isiah Thomas is a prime example. His percentages imply he was a god awful outside shooter. Then you actually watch him play and you realize that he was actually deadly if you backed off of him too much.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 02:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Guards can dribble with both hands, huh? Impressive new tactic...

    I assure you I've seen more 80's basketball than you. There were a lot more players with 3 point range that had their percentages skewed. Teams didn't run plays to get guys open three point looks. Players didn't attempt many and a much larger percentage were half court heaves to end quarters, because no one cared about three point percentages back then.

    Only guy I can think of that could dribble like the guards of this era is Isaiah Thomas.


    And by dribble with both hands I mean what Curry/Kyrie can do.
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    Member vnzla81's Avatar
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Example of what I'm talking about, Magic is considered the greatest point guard ever but his dribble was anything but special.


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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Making it easier to defend the three is fine, but fundamentally changing the line itself is a step in the wrong direction.
    So what do you "add"? Hand checking? I don't think that is ever going to happen, and if it does I think it affects taking people off the dribble more than it does passing or shooting.

    I think acknowledging that today's players are better outside shooters than when the current 3-point line was instituted and altering it is the easiest fix. It retains the essence of the 3-point line and forces teams to use alternative shots because the easy ones can be guarded.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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