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Thread: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

  1. #26
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    The game has always been tinkered with and never left to it's own devices. Some changes are good and some are bad. Those things sort themselves out.
    Bill's suggestion I think is a very good one. I like the three point shot. Now that players have caught on it has pushed every position to be a three point shooter.
    That has consequences itself. Interior bigman skills are not perfected much anymore. Getting rid of the corner three balances out the positions somewhat.
    It is a change that I would be curious to see how it plays out.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    I don't blame the NBA. At the end of the day it falls on the players and how much do they actually want to compete.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Fix the broken NBA lottery system. Same terrible teams get rewarded with high draft picks, and inept front offices make sure their teams are terrible. Pacers haven't had a top 5 pick in 30 years. We should get rewarded for not tanking
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The game has always been tinkered with and never left to it's own devices. Some changes are good and some are bad. Those things sort themselves out.
    Bill's suggestion I think is a very good one. I like the three point shot. Now that players have caught on it has pushed every position to be a three point shooter.
    That has consequences itself. Interior bigman skills are not perfected much anymore. Getting rid of the corner three balances out the positions somewhat.
    It is a change that I would be curious to see how it plays out.
    Do you know why everyone has a three point shot today? Because of the repeal of the illegal defense rule 15 years ago. The one dimensional defensive player has been replaced by the one dimensional shooter. Spacing is at a premium because you can sag off on whoever the hell you want now, as opposed to 20 years ago when, you could park Joe Kline in the corner and another defender had to follow him out there while Charles Barkley had the paint all to himself. Now it's very easy to defend the post, discouraging players from actually developing those skills. Meanwhile it's twice as hard to create spacing, so the non shooters are a detriment.

    All of this because fans overreacted to Shaq fouling out entire front lines in the NBA playoffs, which turned into contests to see if he could make FTs that night. So they *****ed that it should be easier to double team him and Kobe on the ISO-heavy Lakers. Did it help? No, but down the road it made it harder for the next skilled post players to get any traction, and they eventually got weeded out in favor of stretch fours.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Fix the broken NBA lottery system. Same terrible teams get rewarded with high draft picks, and inept front offices make sure their teams are terrible. Pacers haven't had a top 5 pick in 30 years. We should get rewarded for not tanking
    Disqualify teams from having a top-3 number of lottery balls in consecutive years. I have also proposed a 5-year weighting system where lottery position is adjusted by draft position in previous years.

    I do NOT want to see the "#1 draft pick rotates among teams" proposal implemented. All draft years are not created equal.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    All of this because fans overreacted to Shaq fouling out entire front lines in the NBA playoffs
    I thought they just should have called offensive fouls when contract was initiated by the offensive player to push someone off their position rather than to take a currently neutral space. The whole "let me keep bumping you until you lose your balance" thing is ridiculous, especially when you have someone like Shaq doing the bumping and the bumped player then called for a foul.
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    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I thought they just should have called offensive fouls when contract was initiated by the offensive player to push someone off their position rather than to take a currently neutral space. The whole "let me keep bumping you until you lose your balance" thing is ridiculous, especially when you have someone like Shaq doing the bumping and the bumped player then called for a foul.
    When you're that strong, it goes both ways. Shaq got hacked and grabbed a lot just by doing basic post moves, without commuting any foul. It was really tough to officiate.

    Shaq got away with some stuff, but he also got hacked a lot. There was no avoiding contact with him.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    When you're that strong, it goes both ways. Shaq got hacked and grabbed a lot just by doing basic post moves, without commuting any foul. It was really tough to officiate.
    The problem to me is that instead of working with each other to decide what to look for and call or let go - then letting everyone else play by the same rules - in these situations the officials just decide a certain player is "special" in some way and they get officiated differently. Shaq in the post, Ewing's extra steps, Jordan's "the only way he would miss is if he was fouled" - heck, I'll even add Reggie's leg kick to draw a shooting foul in here because I always thought it was a cheap move even though it benefitted us like crazy.

    Don't change the rules. Figure out how to call the ones you have. Add a ref if needed (which I've advocated for a while - 2 at sideline center court covering transition and sight angles from there, one each at the ends of the court to be in position for seeing under the basket).
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Adding refs is everyone's great idea. Problem is you're also increasing the frequency of bad calls. It took the NBA 40 years just to get us to three.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The game has constantly been tweaked to try to balance it - the lane was widened, the 3-point line was added, the no-charge (OK, "guaranteed foul call") zone was defined, and more. I don't think it is somehow pure to leave the game alone and let the players and coaches adjust.

    If I could make one single change I would take away the corner 3 and have the arc intersect the sideline. That would take away the cheap 3 point shots. You'd still have an advantage with the guys who can hit the extreme long range but defenses would be more free to guard those players and only give up a long 2 in exchange. I really think that one change alone would make a huge difference.
    I like this suggestion.

    I also just thought off the cuff that another possibility might be to make threes eligible only in the last two minutes of each quarter (similar to the bonus/penalty free throw rule, I think).

    This would allow for a large chunk of the game to continue to be traditional and classic, add more creativity to the game (no more three, fake a three, drive and dish back to the arc, repeat ad nauseum). But it retains the thrill of the three for part of the game, especially at the end—one of the better arguments for the three, as it keeps the competitor more in reach in the final seconds.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I like this suggestion.

    I also just thought off the cuff that another possibility might be to make threes eligible only in the last two minutes of each quarter (similar to the bonus/penalty free throw rule, I think).

    This would allow for a large chunk of the game to continue to be traditional and classic, add more creativity to the game (no more three, fake a three, drive and dish back to the arc, repeat ad nauseum). But it retains the thrill of the three for part of the game, especially at the end—one of the better arguments for the three, as it keeps the competitor more in reach in the final seconds.
    Or you could just make it easier to guard the arc instead of screwing with a clean line that encourages spacing. Having all 10 players bunched around the top of the arc is worse than what we have now.

    Not that anyone in any position to make changes on the NBA's board of governors wants to kill the three pointer in any way. It's made the game popular and more accessible for younger fans that see a league where you don't need to be 6'6" or taller to be great.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    What I would like to see:

    1) Hard salary cap
    2) Moving back the three-point line
    3) More & better referees
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Or you could just make it easier to guard the arc instead of screwing with a clean line that encourages spacing. Having all 10 players bunched around the top of the arc is worse than what we have now.

    Not that anyone in any position to make changes on the NBA's board of governors wants to kill the three pointer in any way. It's made the game popular and more accessible for younger fans that see a league where you don't need to be 6'6" or taller to be great.
    What's not clean about going to a single line instead of granting an easier bonus shot through a chunk of the court? I'm not arguing against the 3 pointer, but arguing against changing it to adjust to players getting better at it is like proposing we go back to the narrower key and let big men camp out on either side of the basket because there wasn't any reason to screw with a classic line.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    I think the warriors might actually win 80 games if you moved the arc back..

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    What I would like to see:

    1) Hard salary cap
    2) Moving back the three-point line
    3) More & better referees
    I agree, although for number 2 I would prefer to first eliminate the corner three to see how that affects the game before pushing the whole line back.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    What's not clean about going to a single line instead of granting an easier bonus shot through a chunk of the court? I'm not arguing against the 3 pointer, but arguing against changing it to adjust to players getting better at it is like proposing we go back to the narrower key and let big men camp out on either side of the basket because there wasn't any reason to screw with a classic line.
    FYI, the wider lane didn't stop Mikan and it didn't stop chamberlain.

    NBA teams know corner threes are a little closer. Defenses know that too, so they are usually the hardest shots to get. It's also the easiest spot on the court to trap. It balances out.

    The NBA has made a lot of rule changes to fix momentary problems. 3/4 of them have had bad, unintended consequences that were bigger than the problems they "fixed." Flattening out the line and thus shortening the area of the floor the arc covers would have very ugly consequences. Every other play would be a picket fence. The corners would be mostly vacant because there would be no reason to go there, leaving everyone bunched around the top of the arc.

    You'd have a batter argument for actually expanding the floor to make the corner 3 the same distance at the top of the arc. Any new rule that discourages shooting from a larger chunk of the floor is a bad one.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-09-2017 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Let's be real, the league is only broken in the eyes of hard-core fans, which is a small demographic and the least represented. It also happens to be the demographic that will tune in no matter what, meaning the league needs to worry least about appeasing this group. Look at it from everyone else's viewpoint:

    - Ratings are up for the finals, meaning the casual fan is tuning in. They want to see star-power, the NBA is not broken to them.
    - The owners are all currently in the black making big money, the NBA is not broken to them.
    - The players have more power and money than ever, the NBA is not broken to them.

    Hard-core fans who understand basketball know the game is tainted, refereeing is spotty at best, there is no real parity, it's dumb that players can force their way to certain destinations, etc. The list goes on and on. But the NBA isn't about pure basketball, it's about making money through entertainment.

    So yes, to many of us, the league is broken. To everyone that matters to the NBA, the league is working and working very well.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Elite players have been forcing their way to the destinations of their choice for 50 years, which is roughly twice as long as unrestricted free agency has been around.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Why are people so dramatic about this?

    Fun season, playoffs kinda sucked. Things change fast in the NBA, things could be different next season.

    People need to chill out.
    I'd like to point out, the main reason Golden State was able to sign KD and build this super-super team was due to a cap irregularity, the fact there was no cap smoothing and the cap jumped 20 million one year. That is something the players fought very hard for and something that had never happened before, and is likely to never happen again. If anything the cap will go down.

    There is no reason to believe this is the norm, and unless Curry, Klay, Green and KD all go well below the max, which I don't see happening, this will work itself out. Golden State certainly might run off 3 or 4 straight championships before it happens, but it will happen. My advice is to enjoy the ride, the Pacers were never likely to win it anyways.

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  32. #45
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    I feel this is more the problem than anything, including the super-team drama and the modern style of play. But I'll go back 20 years ago.....

    Think about the 90's, for example - Olajuwan, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, Karl Malone, Shaq, Penny Hardaway, Stockton, Gary Payton, Clyde Drexler, David Robinson, Mutumbo, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Glenn Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, Iverson, Chris Webber, Chris Mullen, Larry Johnson, Alonzo Mourning, Dominique Wilkins, Brad Daugherty, Isiah Thomas......

    Hell, some of the bench and role players from back then are, IMO, better than a lot of the present starters. Some would argue that Kyrie, Klay Thompson, and Harden are top 10-15 best players in the league right now. To me, they're equivalent to:

    Kyrie = Mark Price
    Klay Tompson = Alvin Robertson
    James Harden = Dana Barros

    Not saying that any of those guys are garbage; but, there was way more all-around talent in those days.

    Again, this is just my opinion.
    I'm actually on the complete other side of the fence here.

    Players are bigger, stronger, more athletic, and more skilled than ever IMO.

    The skill-sets may not be quite as diverse (everyone seems to copy cat one another's skills), but they are definitely at a higher level than previously IMO
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 06-09-2017 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    The warriors might deal Klay Thompson for a younger, cheaper SG just to save themselves $60+ million in tax penalties. Curry and Durant aren't going anywhere though as long as they want to stay together.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I suppose I need to ask what you mean by quality. This current NBA Finals, the quality has been extremely high. The Warriors are a great team, they move, they pass - they play as a team defensively - they play the right way. If some people fail to see that I don't know what I can say. I would ask maybe you aren't watching.
    Quality is good high level competition, IMHO.

    When both Finals teams sweep their way to the Finals, you have one crappy watered down league that isn't entertaining, IMHO.

    When the Cavs go 36-4 in the East playoffs since the return of Lebron, you have one Conference that is a routine joke year after year.

    What the Warriors have done by adding Durant to a 73 win team bores me. When I was a young, I'd add guys like Tim Duncan or Nowitzki to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and marvel at the amount of points I could put up while dominating. In real life, I'm not entertained by that. Of course the quality of the Warriors team itself is high, but I view the quality of the league to be low of a team builds a video game roster that nukes the rest of the teams. That's not enjoyable to me. Durant/Westbrook taking Curry/Klay to 7 was high quality basketball between two relatively even teams with multiple stars each. But the best player on the loser deflecting to the loser created a laughable imbalance in that conference. Now it's like the East - not even worth watching.

    Pretty simple to me. The playoffs used to have a lot of drama and champions often had to be tested to win. No longer the case.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    People that complain about NBA finals, playoffs been boring and the NBA been "broken" are the same people that don't watch anything else but Pacers games.
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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    What I would like to see:

    1) Hard salary cap
    2) Moving back the three-point line
    3) More & better referees
    Totally agree with the hard cap. I'd also like to see something done with the guaranteed salaries. I think at the end of each season each team should have the ability to re-negotiate with players based on performance. If a team chooses to do so they can give players raises. If a player does not perform well, the team meets with the player and can offer them as low as 70% of their current contract (ie, if a player makes 10 mil, they can drop it down to 7 mil). The player then has the choice to accept the offer or enter free agency.

    Think this would change the game completely.

    Make it a hard cap. Do like colleges do scholarships. Teams are allowed to offer upto 3 tier 1 salaries, 5 tier 2s and the rest would be tier 3s, rookie and vet min contracts.

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    Default Re: The NBA is broken. How do we put it back together again?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    People that complain about NBA finals, playoffs been boring and the NBA been "broken" are the same people that don't watch anything else but Pacers games.

    I've enjoyed the playoffs plenty in years past when the Pacers were garbage. The Pacers literally have zero weight on whether I find the rest of the league entertaininG.

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