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Thread: An answer for Fortaz......

  1. #151
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    What rattles me most is that Peck & Jay have defined positions, so defined that no matter what happens Ron has no chance to redeem himself with them, yet they oppose those that "defend" Ron at all cost because they "like" him or whatever other reason.
    Huh? I've never considered you one of the "Ron defenders". Yes, you campaigned on here passionately - and usually correctly - about the severity of the punishment but you are generally not one of those that either (1) always find an excuse or justification for his actions, or (2) consistently deny that his disruptions are, in fact, disruptions. And frankly, we've reached the point where there are only a handful of posters that qualify. Even guys like UncleBuck will admit, when pressed, that they believe Ron is a major disruption/ problem, but they still think the good is so unbelievably good that it outweighs the disruptions.

    For example, I've thought your position on the brawl was clear, in that a) Ron was wrong, b) the punishment was too harsh and two wrongs don't make a right, c) you're hopeful that the punishment and counseling contribute to a "new" Ron because you realize the "old" Ron hurts the Pacers in many different ways.

    Anyway, I doubt that anyone will believe me when I say this, but if Ron can get his act together and prove it consistently, and over a long enough term for me to believe its permanent, he will redeem himself with me. It is a possibility. I've had the same roadmap for him to follow to redemption for a long time, he just isn't very successful at staying on the right roads for very long.

    So I just have 0.000000000% confidence that he can do it.

    +++++++++++++


    Perhaps I'm missing something, but Foretaz seems to be fresh from a "building consensus" seminar or something. And it seems to trouble him that some of us formed our opinions on the situation years before he joined the conversation. You can call me "close minded" all you want; but I considered all those facts and alternatives a long time ago and found them to be un-compelling then and and un-compelling now.

    Here's my position, in case anyone has forgotten or hasn't seen it. I was a Pacers fan long before this chucklehead joined them, and I'll be a Pacers fan long after this chucklehead leaves them. But I was opposed to the idea of the Pacers trading for him because I knew how disruptive he had been to the Bulls. As a Pacer, I will cheer for him when he makes good plays solely because he plays for the blue-and-gold. But I do not, and will not, endorse him as a member of the Pacers. My analysis is that he's a big part of the reason why this team never reaches its potential, even though some of that potential is closely tied to just how good of a player he could become. There are other reasons the Pacers never reach thier potential as well, and its my right as a fan to point those out and criticize, whether its coaching/ strategy, personnel decisions, or bad play. Other fans may choose not to exercise thier right to criticize, but that doesn't make me 1) wrong, 2) any less of a fan, 3) any more or any less valuable to PD than members of the brigade. And when I criticize, I'm really just begging the Pacers to prove me wrong; to win a championship.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #152
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Thanks, but I think I have a pretty good grasp of their meaning.

    I would like to know what behind the scenes incidents you've seen.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I would like to know what behind the scenes incidents you've seen.
    Note: not intended as a personal response to Since86.

    Would you even believe him if he told you?

    Let's just assume, hypothetically, that all he does is confirm that what's been discussed on here is just the tip of the iceberg...

    Wouldn't you then just say, "yeah, but those are just rumors so I don't believe you."

    Or perhaps he says, "Forget all the stuff that Peck, Jay, bball and others mention, here is the real story..." Would you believe that or would you think its just a far-fetched figment of his imagination?

    Or are you asking someone to name thier source? If so, I wouldn't recommend ever asking that quesiton publicly.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  4. #154
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Jay, thanks for clarifying at the very least two things:

    1. you did not throw me on a heap with others while seeing the validity of what I wrote as such and not as a defense of wrongs.
    2. that you are open to a change of mind if and when the time comes.

    Please do not forget that those who do not live in Chi-town are not so "informed" on Ron as you were before the trade, most of us (me included) start looking at a player when trade talks erupt or a trade is done.
    You had hands on comments read in the papers there daily, which might have influenced your stance from the beginning.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  5. #155
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    -snip-
    Please do not forget that those who do not live in Chi-town are not so "informed" on Ron as you were before the trade, most of us (me included) start looking at a player when trade talks erupt or a trade is done.
    You had hands on comments read in the papers there daily, which might have influenced your stance from the beginning.
    Exactly. I've never tried to hide this bias.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #156
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I've never denied my bias. Love will cause that. However in many ways I should get more upset at Ron then most. have you ever heard of love the person but not their actions. well I love the player but not all his actions.

    The feeling I experienced while watching Ron run up into the stands is a feeling I've never felt before. If I saw a loved one driving into a tree and for about 3 seconds I knew they were going to collide the tree - would likely create the same feelings.

  7. #157
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Anyway, I doubt that anyone will believe me when I say this, but if Ron can get his act together and prove it consistently, and over a long enough term for me to believe its permanent, he will redeem himself with me. It is a possibility. I've had the same roadmap for him to follow to redemption for a long time, he just isn't very successful at staying on the right roads for very long.

    So I just have 0.000000000% confidence that he can do it.
    perhaps...if u didnt use so many ifs...and speak of the need to prove this, that, and the other....and speak of redemption....and then say you have zero confidence....these are things that might lead one to believe that ur not so sincere in ur statements that he can redeem himself with u....leave off the disclaimer and it might be a bit more believable

    with all due respect...rons responsibility isnt to redeem himself with you, me or anyone else...a weak argument could be made on behalf of his teammates...however....ron simply needs to do what is asked of everyone else that is part of the organization....do everything he can do to help his team achieve the one goal it has....how does he or any other member of the team do that? by doing the things that he does well-better...and by doing everything within his power to ensure he does nothing to hinder the organization from achieving that one goal....
    this is not a season of rons redemption...this is not about ron....or mine or urs personal feelings about him and whether he might do these things or not....next season should be one of sheer excitement to see the product perform on the floor....not to see what ron does...

    whether he 'redeems' himself or not....weve got a great team...and it might get better before the season starts....to temper that enthusiasm with an underlying attitude of 'as long as artest is here, we will never succeed...or i wont believe it till i see it'....well that just seems to be about as skeptical as an approach as is possible and seems to be dwelling on one aspect and one aspect alone...RON...and ron is only one part of the puzzle....why he dominates some of u to the point he does...well.....especially when many of u claim we would be just as good without him....well hell...whats the difference then?? either way things are looking good...


    +++++++++++++


    Perhaps I'm missing something, but Foretaz seems to be fresh from a "building consensus" seminar or something. And it seems to trouble him that some of us formed our opinions on the situation years before he joined the conversation. You can call me "close minded" all you want; but I considered all those facts and alternatives a long time ago and found them to be un-compelling then and and un-compelling now.
    not sure if this was meant as a compliment, insult, or attempt at humor...my gut feeling its the latter...and for what its worth, it did make me laugh

    when u formed an opinion makes no difference to me....the fact that the opinion is cast in stone for all intents and purposes...when the facts and situations are constantly in a state of change and repair-yes i think thats highly close minded...im sorry you disagree...what ur saying is people cant change...or wont change...or refuse to change....with some this is very true...it doesnt appear to be the case for ron...not only does he exemplify the attitude of one who wants to change....but he has definitely exhibited noticeable behavior changes to those that are open-minded enuff to see them...you must admit by saying u made up ur mind along time ago-you effectively are admitting that u refuse to accept any possible change and will refute-as u do-any said perceived change....


    Here's my position, in case anyone has forgotten or hasn't seen it. I was a Pacers fan long before this chucklehead joined them, and I'll be a Pacers fan long after this chucklehead leaves them. But I was opposed to the idea of the Pacers trading for him because I knew how disruptive he had been to the Bulls. As a Pacer, I will cheer for him when he makes good plays solely because he plays for the blue-and-gold. But I do not, and will not, endorse him as a member of the Pacers. My analysis is that he's a big part of the reason why this team never reaches its potential, even though some of that potential is closely tied to just how good of a player he could become. There are other reasons the Pacers never reach thier potential as well, and its my right as a fan to point those out and criticize, whether its coaching/ strategy, personnel decisions, or bad play. Other fans may choose not to exercise thier right to criticize, but that doesn't make me 1) wrong, 2) any less of a fan, 3) any more or any less valuable to PD than members of the brigade. And when I criticize, I'm really just begging the Pacers to prove me wrong; to win a championship.
    i know u know this...but when u call people names like chucklehead...well....anyway...

    refusing to endorse him as a pacer...hmmm...not sure what that means...i know hes a pacer...cause hes got a contract...and the two parties involved havent changed that situation...

    continually refusing to accept facts that are presented is why one might get the feeling one is being a bit close-minded...just because one refuses to accept these things and print them on the computer doesnt, in any way, alter their validity....and as long as ron has a contract with the pacers, he is a pacer, whether u, i , able, peck or anyone else endorses him or not....these personal endorsements are not prequisites for being a pacer.....

    i personally dont feel like ive said its inappropriate to criticize....however there is a big difference to me between criticizing and condemning....IMO

    and forgive me for saying so....but i do find it a bit ..hmm...odd?...that a relationship is identified basically as 'prove me wrong'....not sure how that can be anything but a tumultuous relationship at best...once again IMO

  8. #158
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I've never denied my bias. Love will cause that. However in many ways I should get more upset at Ron then most. have you ever heard of love the person but not their actions. well I love the player but not all his actions.

    The feeling I experienced while watching Ron run up into the stands is a feeling I've never felt before. If I saw a loved one driving into a tree and for about 3 seconds I knew they were going to collide the tree - would likely create the same feelings.
    yup...a sickening feeling that just kinda sweeps over you...you go from being on such a high because of them dismantling the pistons to this just horrifying feeling.....i know its just basketball...but the range of emotion that was encompassed in those few seconds....pretty rare...and not one id like to experience again, anytime soon

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Note: not intended as a personal response to Since86.

    Would you even believe him if he told you?

    Let's just assume, hypothetically, that all he does is confirm that what's been discussed on here is just the tip of the iceberg...

    Wouldn't you then just say, "yeah, but those are just rumors so I don't believe you."

    Or perhaps he says, "Forget all the stuff that Peck, Jay, bball and others mention, here is the real story..." Would you believe that or would you think its just a far-fetched figment of his imagination?

    Or are you asking someone to name thier source? If so, I wouldn't recommend ever asking that quesiton publicly.
    If he saw the beginning, middle, and end I would definately believe him. He stated he has knowledge of behind the scenes, without being hersey. But a partial story isn't going to cut it. Saying he walked by and saw Ron and X yelling at each other doesn't tell me why, or what happened afterwards.

  10. #160
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    If he saw the beginning, middle, and end I would definately believe him. He stated he has knowledge of behind the scenes, without being hersey. But a partial story isn't going to cut it. Saying he walked by and saw Ron and X yelling at each other doesn't tell me why, or what happened afterwards.
    I don't deal in speculation. I think that is what Jay was trying to tell you without coming right out and telling you.

    EDIT: For the most part, I don't deal in speculation. But I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference when it comes to my posts.

  11. #161
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Note: not intended as a personal response to Since86.

    Would you even believe him if he told you?

    Let's just assume, hypothetically, that all he does is confirm that what's been discussed on here is just the tip of the iceberg...

    Wouldn't you then just say, "yeah, but those are just rumors so I don't believe you."

    Or perhaps he says, "Forget all the stuff that Peck, Jay, bball and others mention, here is the real story..." Would you believe that or would you think its just a far-fetched figment of his imagination?

    Or are you asking someone to name thier source? If so, I wouldn't recommend ever asking that quesiton publicly.
    u know, theres a reason that in a court of law u cannot introduce unsubstantiated facts as evidence....because if u could u simply could create fact/evidence for whatever point/argument ur trying to make...

    now i realize this forum is anything but a court of law...

    however, the same principles are relatively true...and to be honest, anytime i hear someone make a point that is backed up by hearsay....knowing full well it cant be and wont be substantiated for the very reasons u mention here, jay....well to me that just says that its completely unreliable...

    speculation is one thing....its assumed that nothing is truly factual....just thoughts and what certain know facts might lead to....

    hearsay is a totally different beast...and everytime i see backchannel this and known rumor that...i cant help but chuckle...because its highly unlikely...in fact almost impossible to believe that someone was an eyewitness to the actual whole event...

    theres a reason theyre callled back channel stories and the like....theyre sooo subjective....realistically speaking

    which then brings us back to hearsay....which is so unreliable, i wont even delve too deep into it.....

    seriously....how difficult is it to get an objective, unbiased, eyewitness account of anything????

    let alone a hearsay argument that has passed thru god knows how many hands, and been embellished and edited at each point...

    so would i believe?? uh...no....and anyone that does...i respectfully say they enjoy living in a world that more resembles a fantasyland than the actual real world....

    rumors, speculation, backchannel stories, hearsay, eyewitness accounts, etc...they all fall into the same category on a message board....none is more reliable or anymore valid than the other...no matter how much we would like to believe otherwise...

  12. #162
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    let alone a hearsay argument that has passed thru god knows how many hands, and been embellished and edited at each point...
    Believe it not, there are people who deal only in facts (when it comes to this team) who refuse to allow themselves to get caught up in rumor and innuendo. I'll leave it at that.

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    I don't deal in speculation. I think that is what Jay was trying to tell you without coming right out and telling you.

    EDIT: For the most part, I don't deal in speculation. But I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference when it comes to my posts.
    I'm not asking you too. You said that you have knowledge of behind the scenes problems, without them being hersey. Tell me a situation where you witnessed a confrontation with Ron, where he was in the wrong.

    If you're going to say that you've personally seen it, then share. Don't tell us that you have, but then don't want to share for some reason.

    I'd much rather hear a negative story from someone who was actually there than reading/watching it on ESPN.

    Honestly I don't think I'm asking anything farfetched.

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Believe it not, there are people who deal only in facts (when it comes to this team) who refuse to allow themselves to get caught up in rumor and innuendo. I'll leave it at that.
    ru·mor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rmr)
    n.
    A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth.
    Unverified information received from another; hearsay.

    tr.v. ru·mored, ru·mor·ing, ru·mors
    To spread or tell by rumor.

    If you have personally witnessed it, which you say you have, then it wouldn't be rumoring. People don't need to hide behind actual events, especially if they're going to use those events as reasons for disliking something.

  15. #165
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Believe it not, there are people who deal only in facts (when it comes to this team) who refuse to allow themselves to get caught up in rumor and innuendo. I'll leave it at that.
    oh, i very much believe that...

    the list starts like this....

    herb
    mel
    donnie
    larry
    rick

    i think u get my drift....the presence of those people on this board -those who truly are privvy to all the facts- is another issue....

  16. #166
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Sometimes you have to consider the source... And base credibility on their record. Some of you simply want to close your eyes and ears to any source that doesn't tell you what you want to hear.



    -Bball
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I'm not asking you too. You said that you have knowledge of behind the scenes problems, without them being hersey. Tell me a situation where you witnessed a confrontation with Ron, where he was in the wrong.

    If you're going to say that you've personally seen it, then share. Don't tell us that you have, but then don't want to share for some reason.

    I'd much rather hear a negative story from someone who was actually there than reading/watching it on ESPN.

    Honestly I don't think I'm asking anything farfetched.

    u might be much more trusting than myself...anytime anything remotely like that is broached on a message board, i am inclined to dismiss it....anyone that has this sort of info would 1...not disclose it...and 2 if he did choose to disclose it, a message board would not be the one and only place he did so...if the only place u can get verification is anonymously on a message board, that should tell u something.....most likely what it tells u is this....its not real....however that might shatter a lot of peoples world...so some might choose to believe otherwise....thats why i mentioned living in some other world other than the real one....

  18. #168
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    u might be much more trusting than myself...anytime anything remotely like that is broached on a message board, i am inclined to dismiss it... .
    IOW... "I dismiss anything I don't want to hear"?

    -Bball
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    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    u might be much more trusting than myself...anytime anything remotely like that is broached on a message board, i am inclined to dismiss it....

    I've been informed that he has something to do with the organization, so I'm a little more open to it.

    It just rubs me wrong when someone proclaims they know something, then say that they can't/won't tell. It just raises the question, why would they say anything to begin with.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    u might be much more trusting than myself...anytime anything remotely like that is broached on a message board, i am inclined to dismiss it....anyone that has this sort of info would 1...not disclose it...and 2 if he did choose to disclose it, a message board would not be the one and only place he did so...if the only place u can get verification is anonymously on a message board, that should tell u something.....most likely what it tells u is this....its not real....however that might shatter a lot of peoples world...so some might choose to believe otherwise....thats why i mentioned living in some other world other than the real one....
    As you should.


    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I'm not asking you too. You said that you have knowledge of behind the scenes problems, without them being hersey. Tell me a situation where you witnessed a confrontation with Ron, where he was in the wrong.

    If you're going to say that you've personally seen it, then share. Don't tell us that you have, but then don't want to share for some reason.

    I'd much rather hear a negative story from someone who was actually there than reading/watching it on ESPN.

    Honestly I don't think I'm asking anything farfetched.
    Doing so would require me to divulge too much personal information, which I'm simply not willing to do in an open forum. Surely that occured to you. There are a handful of people here who have had the courtesy and good sense to ask me privately and I've been forthright with them.

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    As you should.




    Doing so would require me to divulge too much personal information, which I'm simply not willing to do in an open forum. Surely that occured to you. There are a handful of people here who have had the courtesy and good sense to ask me privately and I've been forthright with them.
    Then you wouldn't have opened the can of worms. To start something off like that, then not be willing to devulge any information at all gives me the picture of my neice sticking out her tongue chanting "I know something you don't know, and I'm not going to tell you."

  22. #172
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I've been informed that he has something to do with the organization, so I'm a little more open to it.

    It just rubs me wrong when someone proclaims they know something, then say that they can't/won't tell. It just raises the question, why would they say anything to begin with.

    as i said...ur far more trusting than myself....

    keep this in mind....its amazing sometimes what we has humans will believe if its something we really would like to believe....or should i say...its amazing what we sometimes might ignore, when we want to believe something so badly

  23. #173
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    .anyone that has this sort of info would 1...not disclose it...and 2 if he did choose to disclose it, a message board would not be the one and only place he did so...if the only place u can get verification is anonymously on a message board, that should tell u something.....most likely what it tells u is this....its not real....however that might shatter a lot of peoples world...so some might choose to believe otherwise....thats why i mentioned living in some other world other than the real one....
    You're making a lot of assumptions and wrapping them in a rather small world to fit your criteria. Again, it sounds like you are saying you only believe what you want to hear. ...And it is not only 'beliefs' we are talking about here... it's just a matter of getting alleged info and putting our antenna up.

    If somebody with purported inside info tells you Artest fakes injuries when he's 'unhappy and pouting' about something doesn't mean you have to immediately believe it. You just simply shouldn't immediately dismiss it. You watch things a little closer. You notice Artest missing games with a backache just as the team loses a game or two. You notice Artest missing practice with a migraine (s). And you notice he returns seemingly 100%. Then one day you read in the paper about "migrainegate" and you suddenly realize there was some teeth to the inside info. Of course that doesn't fit with the "Artest is a warrior and a true competitor. He wants to play every minute of every game and every practice as if it's a game"... so some discard that 'inside info' and what was right in front of their eyes because it doesn't fit with what they want to believe.


    -Bball
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  24. #174
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Then you wouldn't have opened the can of worms. To start something off like that, then not be willing to devulge any information at all gives me the picture of my neice sticking out her tongue chanting "I know something you don't know, and I'm not going to tell you."

    ummm...dont joke...u might be closer to reality than u might think...

  25. #175
    Harmonica
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Then you wouldn't have opened the can of worms. To start something off like that, then not be willing to devulge any information at all gives me the picture of my neice sticking out her tongue chanting "I know something you don't know, and I'm not going to tell you."
    Like I said, I've been very forthright with those who have had the courtesy to ask me privately. Beyond that, I tend to state things matter-of-factly. You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you—and I'll adopt the foretaz stance here—I really don't care.

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