Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

An answer for Fortaz......

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Originally posted by Suaveness
    Don't get me wrong, I in no way endorse what Ron did, nor am I saying that what he did was right or excusable. He was wrong, and he did something really stupid this year.

    But I don't believe him to be this crazed lunatic that many think he is. I think what he does is correctable, and though he did something stupid, I think that he is fully capable of coming back next year and performing like an allstar. What kind of excuse can you give for the way he acts on the court? Stupid? Crazed? Mentally incapable? Who knows, because honestly none of us have a clue. But I believe that the he gets lost in the game sometimes, and because he doesn't know where not to cross the line sometimes, it results in smashed cameras and going into the stands.

    i know u dont endorse his actions...and i truly hope noone does...those people would seriously concern me...as far as this year is concerned...its not just this year...if this was an isolated incident then we wouldnt even be having this conversation...

    ron is not a crazed lunatic....what ron does is correctible-because its behavior and response oriented...and it has nothing at all to do with being stupid...i too believe he is able to come back and perform like an allstar...i believe it is very possible for him to come back and have a monster season that merits mvp consideration...however, in not so naive to believe that this will happen on its own....and it really doesnt have much to do with getting lost in games or not knowing where the line is or anything else....

    its very simple in one regard, but incredibly complex in another....ron has deep seated emotional issues....issues that have dictated his behavior all his life...these things are neither easy to work thru nor easily admitted...and as difficult as that process is its even more difficult to begin to reprogram some of his responses that have developed and been inculcated into his brain for so many years....you dont just change ur behavior overnite....no matter what it might be....

    in laymans terms, ron is programmed wrong...it doesnt make him stupid...it doesnt make him crazy, per se....it means hes gone thru life in such a way that things have scarred him in a way that the way he reacts to certain situations are not going to be anything but detestable from a behavior standpoint....

    its quite obvious that rons behavior bottomed out a couple years ago....and at the time that larry came on board its pretty obvious that things took a turn.....prior to larry being here, that sort of behavior was more coddled and cajoled by isiah than anything else....which was basically ignoring the real problem and just trying to find a way to deal with the results...which only makes it worse....

    its quite apparent that once bird got here, that steps were then taken to begin to truly remedy the situation....no matter what u hear and read its quite obvious that ron has been in some deep therapy from the time larry got here....

    im not sure how much everyone might know about this sort of thing....but its not all a bed of roses once u start....however it starts the road to recovery and ultimately things being much better....

    are there relapses...u betcha.....the playoff incidents that people mention...yup....the brawl...yup....the comments that were made prior to the brawl regarding the time off were a major indicator....

    there are major issues at work here....i applaud the pacers organization....many of u would just have them dump ron a long time ago....which definitely is an option....but they saw the potential that he has...they also began to identify the problems....and realized the road to reaping rewards might not be easy and be problematic...but would be well worth it once they got there....

    if someone is truly family....u stick with them thru the tough times...if the family member has real problems...then u get him real help....i truly believe ron never got any real help till bird got here...everyone thru his highschool, college and early pro days just tried to get the most out of his nearly superhuman physical skills realizing if they could somehow muddle thru the negatives he would be gone sooner or later and they could move on while having reaped the benefits his basketball ability provided to them personally and organizationally....however this only cultivated the problem more....and sooner or later it cant be shoved under the carpet...it has to come to a head....

    and it did....and now, believe it or not, hes definitely on the road to recovery....yes...many detractors will say they will believe it when they see it....but then again, the way the majority of society typically loooks at people with problems similar to this is one of the main reasons that these people have these problems to begin with....

    the attitude to just ship them off instead of getting the issue fixed because the fix is involved and difficult....they take the easy way out...its popular...

    every once in a while a talent comes along...whether in basketball or anything else that is simply amazing....definitely far above the norm....ron is that talent, most of us would agree...which is interesting in itself....hes almost a physical freak....and hes widely regarded as a great human being....these things should tell us something...

    if hes got a willingness and desire like few others to succeed....if his commitment level is unsurpassed....and the guy is genuinely a nice guy...and hes a freakishly talented basketball player....then whats missing?????

    good management...no great management, when they recognize talent that has its drawbacks....seeks out those drawbacks....and works feverishly to better them, all the while knowing what awaits them in the end....

    in a situation like rons, it requires constant attention and confirmation and reassurance....and the road hasnt been easy and it will almost certainly have more hiccups....what actually would have been a major step forward when ron walked away from ben wallace turned into a relapse when the illfated cup hit its target...the penalty for that relapse was unbelievably severe...but at the same time... it actually sped up his recovery in some ways...

    its easy to just toss aside a problem u dont really understand...let alone how to fix it...and not many would ever blame the pacers for doing so...fortunately they not only dont take this position, but realize ron is a human being and that the pacers organization as a whole, their fans, the nba, and ron will be much , much better off by doing things the hard way and working thru rons serious issues together....yes..they may have selfish motives...but nonetheless...everyone benefits in the end.....

    the road isnt easy....the rare things in life that are ultimately so satisfying rarely are....but for those that understand these things are able to stay focused on them...the rewards will be remarkable....

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: An answer for Fortaz......

      That was a terrifc post
      Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: An answer for Fortaz......

        Originally posted by Since86
        Ron was blamed for the rift between him and JO. JO telling Ron that he(Ron) couldn't get on his(JO's) plane, and such. Jax wasn't around last year, so he couldn't be part of that problem.

        This year, a problem arises between Jax and Mr. X, but most believe JO. Obviously Ron wasn't around, so he can't be a part of this either.

        I'm starting to lean more towards JO just doesn't really know how to be a leader, or a teammate for that matter. To me he just seems like he has an attitude about him, and has his own layed out plans, and if you don't fall in line or fit his plan he gets verbal. That's what I'm saying without knowing all the facts. It could most definately be all Ron, but at the same time he might just be JOs scapegoat for his emotions.

        Gotta run... but I'll agree that JO has been showing "growing pains" as a leader and I've been concerned. I think he'll get there, but he doesn't exactly have the most compliant guys following his lead and that never helps.
        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
        And life itself, rushing over me
        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: An answer for Fortaz......

          Originally posted by Suaveness
          No that was stupid. But people forget that his grandmother had just died, so it wouldn't be wrong to feel that way. He just doesn't know how to say/express something without sounding as though he's gone crazy.

          Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

          Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: An answer for Fortaz......

            Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
            Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

            Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.
            Like I said, people have different ways of expressing themselves. Ben Wallace's brother died shortly before the brawl, can't you say he overreacted? Ron did not threaten retirement, it was simply a means for him to get away from it all. People have different ways of thinking and dealing with pain. I will never get upset at a person for that.
            Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: An answer for Fortaz......

              I have an honest question for everyone.

              How is Ron so great, that this entire franchise should just bow down to him? Like Peck said, we had JO talking about how he wanted to make Ron feel more welcome in the beginning of the season. That's basically babysitting.

              Ron is a good player, but he doesn't have Duncan or Lebron type importance. Even if Ron was as great as Duncan or Lebron, he would still not be worth the trouble.

              Foretaz, in your post, you're making it sound like Artest is a Jordan-like talent. Artest is just a very good player, that's super talented. He doesnt have the capability to lead a team, because, I don't really think he wants to. Like Peck mentioned, when Ron feels he is getting outplayed, he takes shots that are out of our offensive scheme. He hurts the team when he gets in a high pressure situation.

              Artest is not worth more than the dignity of this franchise. This team could easily survive without Ron Artest.......As long as he's here, I dont know if it will. I don't want a player on my team that is causing trouble with "the franchise player"

              So far, no NBA team has ever won an NBA championship with Ron Artest on their squad. Believe it or not, a team is going to win the 2005 title without Ron on their team. I have an odd hunch that there will be future titles won without the great Artest. The Indiana Pacers made it to the finals once without him. I know, I know....It's hard to believe a team could win it all without a player thats as "amazing" as Ron is, and without a player that doesnt have Ron's "freakish" physical talents.

              I know, I know, Ron is a "great human being" atleast.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                Originally posted by Suaveness
                Like I said, people have different ways of expressing themselves. Ben Wallace's brother died shortly before the brawl, can't you say he overreacted? Ron did not threaten retirement, it was simply a means for him to get away from it all. People have different ways of thinking and dealing with pain. I will never get upset at a person for that.

                I thought Ron said he wanted to retire because he wanted to be a big rap star?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                  Fortaze,

                  You make some excellent points, some of which I've been saying for years.

                  I disagree with some others. There's no way I'm convinced that Ron's problems have bottomed out and that he's been improving since Bird/ Rick were here. Its not as public, and perhaps not as frequent, but the individual incidents have been even more devastating. This guy was benched last season for "conduct detrimental to winning" and quit on the team this season. That's not improvement. Not to mention the meltdown in the playoffs.

                  Second - and I'm usually the first to complain about Isiah's coaching, but Isiah tried numerous approaches and they all failed. Certianly I would've preferred a harsher stance, but Isiah even tried that and its hard to fault Zeke for Ron's misdeeds.

                  As you've basically said, about six bazillion things have to go right for Ron to rise above his destructive habits and then about five mega-zillion things have to go right for the Pacers to win a title. if somebody said, we'll keep Ron, because we believe our window of opportunity is still five seasons away, then I'd say "fine", keep him, take that gamble. But I think the rest of the team (or 14 new players ) can be ready much sooner than that.

                  There's more in there, but I can only see so much on my blackberry at a time.
                  Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                  Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                  Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                  Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                  And life itself, rushing over me
                  Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                  Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                    Originally posted by Suaveness
                    Like I said, people have different ways of expressing themselves. Ben Wallace's brother died shortly before the brawl, can't you say he overreacted? Ron did not threaten retirement, it was simply a means for him to get away from it all. People have different ways of thinking and dealing with pain. I will never get upset at a person for that.
                    You keep on believing that, and I'll keep calling you "ostrich"
                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                      Back to fortaze,

                      That's the first I've ever heard anyone hint that Ron started counseling before the brawl or when Bird first arrived. Has anyone else heard this?

                      As far as I know, the counseling didn't begin until Stern mandated it.
                      Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                      Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                      Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                      Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                      And life itself, rushing over me
                      Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                      Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                        Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
                        I thought Ron said he wanted to retire because he wanted to be a big rap star?
                        Yes, you're right. He wanted to retire to become a rap star.

                        How can you talk like this, when you don't even know what you're really talking about? He did not release an album, a women trio that is under his label released an album......

                        I'd just like to know how facts always seem to get twisted. It's just a big pet peeve of mine as reporters recalling the brawl as Ron going into the stands swining on people, it's just not accurate. How do you think Ron's conversation with whoever went?

                        Ron: "I've been thinking. I'm a good really album producer, so I'm going to retire to devote all my energy on that.

                        Pacers brass: "We don't think you should retire, to become a rap star..
                        Ron: "No, not a...."
                        Pacers brass: "So we'll give you two games to sit on the bench to work out some lyrics...
                        Ron: "but I don't need lyrics.."
                        Pacers brass: "and if you don't come up with anything good, you can come back and play."
                        Ron: "but...."
                        Pacers Brass: "okay, that's settled. Now what were you saying about some nagging injuries and that your grandmother dying?"
                        Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                          Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                          Back to fortaze,

                          That's the first I've ever heard anyone hint that Ron started counseling before the brawl or when Bird first arrived. Has anyone else heard this?

                          As far as I know, the counseling didn't begin until Stern mandated it.
                          do you really think this sort of info would be made public??...i know u would like to know...i know many fans would like to know...though it wouldnt really accomplish much...then they would just say things that are often said regarding people who seek counseling....once again its about a mindset....

                          if ur down on someone....u will use whatever happens to only further that point...in this case...those of u that have disdain for ron would only be saying something like...the guy has been going to a shrink for over a year...its obvious hes nuts....or something like that....im not saying u would personally....but i think u catch my drift-at least i hope...noone...not ron, not the pacers stands to gain anything by their being a public admission of him being in therapy....

                          some of u like to say the smokescreen bird uses to keep his trade value up...what the hell do u think would happen to that, let alone his reputation in the league if it were all over the papers he was in treatment...seriously? this is a very private matter that is noones business....except those that are very, very close to the situation....and by that i mean, even his fellow players would not be atune to this...but if u look at his behavior in the 'better season' 03-04...and are somewhat familiar with some psychological profiling...it becomes apparent that there was something definitely going on....that nite of the brawl, it was very very evident that there were things at work, believe it or not....this doesnt mean that everything is fixed once u start....its something that is a neverending process in a lot of ways....however progress definitely takes place....its unbelievable how penal the nite of nov 19 ended up being....noone could ever dream that a 'relapse' could be so penal....as i said earlier...its kinda ironic that 2 or 3 years ago ron would have just gotten into a fight with ben....and the repercussions would have been far less severe...but sometimes progress can work out to be disadvantageous....

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                            Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
                            Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

                            Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.
                            buildings,machines, and legos have screws....people dont...if only it were that simple...

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                              Originally posted by foretaz

                              i know u dont endorse his actions...and i truly hope noone does...those people would seriously concern me...as far as this year is concerned...its not just this year...if this was an isolated incident then we wouldnt even be having this conversation...

                              ron is not a crazed lunatic....what ron does is correctible-because its behavior and response oriented...and it has nothing at all to do with being stupid...i too believe he is able to come back and perform like an allstar...i believe it is very possible for him to come back and have a monster season that merits mvp consideration...however, in not so naive to believe that this will happen on its own....and it really doesnt have much to do with getting lost in games or not knowing where the line is or anything else....

                              its very simple in one regard, but incredibly complex in another....ron has deep seated emotional issues....issues that have dictated his behavior all his life...these things are neither easy to work thru nor easily admitted...and as difficult as that process is its even more difficult to begin to reprogram some of his responses that have developed and been inculcated into his brain for so many years....you dont just change ur behavior overnite....no matter what it might be....

                              in laymans terms, ron is programmed wrong...it doesnt make him stupid...it doesnt make him crazy, per se....it means hes gone thru life in such a way that things have scarred him in a way that the way he reacts to certain situations are not going to be anything but detestable from a behavior standpoint....

                              its quite obvious that rons behavior bottomed out a couple years ago....and at the time that larry came on board its pretty obvious that things took a turn.....prior to larry being here, that sort of behavior was more coddled and cajoled by isiah than anything else....which was basically ignoring the real problem and just trying to find a way to deal with the results...which only makes it worse....

                              its quite apparent that once bird got here, that steps were then taken to begin to truly remedy the situation....no matter what u hear and read its quite obvious that ron has been in some deep therapy from the time larry got here....

                              im not sure how much everyone might know about this sort of thing....but its not all a bed of roses once u start....however it starts the road to recovery and ultimately things being much better....

                              are there relapses...u betcha.....the playoff incidents that people mention...yup....the brawl...yup....the comments that were made prior to the brawl regarding the time off were a major indicator....

                              there are major issues at work here....i applaud the pacers organization....many of u would just have them dump ron a long time ago....which definitely is an option....but they saw the potential that he has...they also began to identify the problems....and realized the road to reaping rewards might not be easy and be problematic...but would be well worth it once they got there....

                              if someone is truly family....u stick with them thru the tough times...if the family member has real problems...then u get him real help....i truly believe ron never got any real help till bird got here...everyone thru his highschool, college and early pro days just tried to get the most out of his nearly superhuman physical skills realizing if they could somehow muddle thru the negatives he would be gone sooner or later and they could move on while having reaped the benefits his basketball ability provided to them personally and organizationally....however this only cultivated the problem more....and sooner or later it cant be shoved under the carpet...it has to come to a head....

                              and it did....and now, believe it or not, hes definitely on the road to recovery....yes...many detractors will say they will believe it when they see it....but then again, the way the majority of society typically loooks at people with problems similar to this is one of the main reasons that these people have these problems to begin with....

                              the attitude to just ship them off instead of getting the issue fixed because the fix is involved and difficult....they take the easy way out...its popular...

                              every once in a while a talent comes along...whether in basketball or anything else that is simply amazing....definitely far above the norm....ron is that talent, most of us would agree...which is interesting in itself....hes almost a physical freak....and hes widely regarded as a great human being....these things should tell us something...

                              if hes got a willingness and desire like few others to succeed....if his commitment level is unsurpassed....and the guy is genuinely a nice guy...and hes a freakishly talented basketball player....then whats missing?????

                              good management...no great management, when they recognize talent that has its drawbacks....seeks out those drawbacks....and works feverishly to better them, all the while knowing what awaits them in the end....

                              in a situation like rons, it requires constant attention and confirmation and reassurance....and the road hasnt been easy and it will almost certainly have more hiccups....what actually would have been a major step forward when ron walked away from ben wallace turned into a relapse when the illfated cup hit its target...the penalty for that relapse was unbelievably severe...but at the same time... it actually sped up his recovery in some ways...

                              its easy to just toss aside a problem u dont really understand...let alone how to fix it...and not many would ever blame the pacers for doing so...fortunately they not only dont take this position, but realize ron is a human being and that the pacers organization as a whole, their fans, the nba, and ron will be much , much better off by doing things the hard way and working thru rons serious issues together....yes..they may have selfish motives...but nonetheless...everyone benefits in the end.....

                              the road isnt easy....the rare things in life that are ultimately so satisfying rarely are....but for those that understand these things are able to stay focused on them...the rewards will be remarkable....
                              BUT, and this is a big but, how long do you hold the franchise hostage to the plan of rebuilding Artest? As I said before, I am aware of his history and the problems he has faced. It is also obvious that many people have used him for his skills but not really helped his personal issues, which should have been addressed before he left school.

                              There comes a time though when Ron has to make the decision to help himself. Sure the team can support him, but that is not their primary responsibility. This isn't a YMCA league. The other guys on the team are playing for their pay checks and can't afford to have to baby sit Ron in order to help themselves. As talented as he is, they have to be getting tired of it.

                              If Ron doesn't understand what he is doing, and I have no idea if he does or not, than he won't fix the problem. Ron remindes me of the 4th graders I teach. They know how to talk the talk about right and wrong, but keep making the same dumb choices. When I ask them why they do that, they give me a look like they have no clue. I then have to sit down with them and reteach and explain how to change their ways. I also make the point though of stressing that it is not going to change until they decide to do it. Ron is tha same way.

                              I hope like heck Ron has had the light come on and can get himself together. But, as Peck stated, until he does, I just can't bring myself to trust him yet.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                                Originally posted by Peck
                                Issue # 3.

                                He's a great talent. Hell he may be the best player the Pacers have ever had but, IMO, it doesn't matter how good you are if you & your team mates & coach's cannot get along.
                                i would say he could quite possibly be the best talent to ever have been here...very much so...hes definitely not the best player theyve ever had at this point in his career...but hes very young...time will tell....

                                as far as the need to get along....i agree one hundred percent....but there is one thing id like to interject here...no one person, despite what a lot of people might want us to blieve, is totally responsible for team chemistry....i know the cancer theory-but that theory always involves more than one person...usually a rift between two people with one coming out looking like a cancer....

                                the whole team is responsible for getting along...and more importantly it is managements responsibility to make sure that they get along in such a manner that is conducive to winning...ultimately i hold management responsible for this...not the players...and getting rid of the player is not the answer though definitely might be an easy way out....though totally counterproductive in some cases..

                                i liken it to this(and many of u will probably have something smart to say-im sure ) you have a classroom full of students....u have a teacher...u have a principal...etc....the roles are easily identified...you may have one student that appears to always be disruptive....kicking him out of school is typically not the answer...nor is sending him to another class....together the teacher, principal, and parents hopefully work on dealing with the problems so that all in the classroom will have an environment that is much more conducive to learning....in this case subsitute the parents with the actual player since they are adults...dont laugh...i know the irony...


                                There is a lot of back story's that are well known on here (I'm not sure if you've heard them yet or not?) about Ron & Jermaine. But there are also story's of Ron & Rick that don't always get mentioned as much as they should.
                                im probably familiar with most of what u speak...though i wont pretend to know everything...but i think i know most of what ur alluding to...more reasons u really dont like ron and ones that in my eyes are much more valid in some respects than the one u like to mention with kirilenko for reasons i already stated...the issues ur referring to are real...and definitely very serious...


                                Before last season Jermaine made a comment in the Star about having to dedicate more time to Ron to make him feel part of the team (read: babysit Ron) & how differant team members were taking turns with Ron. I'm sorry but the guy brings the team down when it becomes necassary to do that. I don't care who the player is. If it was Jordan or if it was Magic, nobody would be worth the entire team trying to make sure they were happy & content.

                                u see...when u interject that babysit comment...well....i dont think i even have to say....

                                is it not possible that, given its well known ron is somewhat of a loner that he needs to be sought out by others to be made to feel like hes more part of the group...ron is not the first person in the world to not be outgoing when it comes to being part of groups....there are many people who are very uncomfortable and insecure when it comes to such environments....u may think that a bit comical...but its real...very very real...
                                whether its fair or not to the other team members to put that responsibility on them...thats another issue...but ultimately management intervenes because its deemed to be in the best interest of the team...those that are good at mingling and getting along with others will be asked to do so with the ones that are not....in this case trying to bring ron into the fold so that he might have more of a support system is definitely a worthwhile and necessary action....rons problems and successes and therefore the teams successes are ultimately going to be determined a great deal by how his teammates support him thru some very difficult and complicated situations...

                                and theres a very big difference between doing this to just be happy and content and doing it in an attempt to try to develop a closeknit almost family like support system, not only for ron, but for all....but ron is definitely the one biggest in need....though with s. jack, he might not be too far behind in needing that strong support system in the locker room....

                                if u think that doing this brings the team down...well....it might be more time consuming and intense....but the potential results could be a very close knit team that is able to deal with most anything together....

                                if u have a family member who is problematic...do u say its just not worth it to seek him out, even repeatedly? i guess some do....which doesnt speak well for the quality of that family...but many families will stop at nothing until that family member has indeed worked thru most of their problems and the result is a close knit family that is much better prepared to deal with whatever life might throw in their way....great relationships rarely come with out a price....usually the greater the price the greater the relationship....


                                Anytime Ron doesn't get his way he either goes public with his thoughts about how he doesn't know if he wants to play here or not (like he did on two occasions Carlisle first season) or he somehow gets a migraine.

                                Well the star fessed up about covering up for Ron during last seasons playoffs when Kravits outed Montieth for this & I'm not sure that isn't why Mark doesn't cover the Pacers on the beat anymore. I'm not saying it is but it wouldn't suprise me either.

                                I digress.

                                Ron has faked issues before about headaches when he doesn't feel as though the offense goes through him enough
                                once again....there are obviously serious issues with regards to his behavior and he has handled situations that arent to his liking....by that i mean he has made many mistakes....most of which i think he realizes only at a much later date....these all keep going back to ron's response mechanism....how ron responds to situations that he might perceive to somehow pose a threat to him in some sort of distorted way....

                                i would tell u that these fake injuries that u speak of as well as the speaking out is a pretty basic, although immature, call out for assistance....rebelling in its most simple form is simply a plea for attention...in rons case it doesnt appear to be so much as a plea for attention as it does an alarm that there is an issue that is unresolved....

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X