Page 5 of 14 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 342

Thread: An answer for Fortaz......

  1. #101
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,344

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yes, you're right. He wanted to retire to become a rap star.

    How can you talk like this, when you don't even know what you're really talking about? He did not release an album, a women trio that is under his label released an album......

    I'd just like to know how facts always seem to get twisted. It's just a big pet peeve of mine as reporters recalling the brawl as Ron going into the stands swining on people, it's just not accurate. How do you think Ron's conversation with whoever went?

    Ron: "I've been thinking. I'm a good really album producer, so I'm going to retire to devote all my energy on that.

    Pacers brass: "We don't think you should retire, to become a rap star..
    Ron: "No, not a...."
    Pacers brass: "So we'll give you two games to sit on the bench to work out some lyrics...
    Ron: "but I don't need lyrics.."
    Pacers brass: "and if you don't come up with anything good, you can come back and play."
    Ron: "but...."
    Pacers Brass: "okay, that's settled. Now what were you saying about some nagging injuries and that your grandmother dying?"

    I should have implied better that I was being sarcastic.

  2. #102
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,344

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Reggie's house burned down, and he threatened retirement. Is he crazy?

    Ok, that's a valid point. Players relatives die all the time, and you don't ever see a player threatening to retire because of that. Most players would use basketball as a way to get their mind off of it(Maybe Ron is different)

    I just saw Ron's threatening to retire another bump in a long road of "conduct detrimental to winning"

  3. #103
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Issue # 6

    This one is controversial & I know that there are going to be some who come shouting at me on this one, but I'll say it anyway.

    Ron Artest is a typical bully, IMO.

    Have you ever seen Ron Artest do somthing to somebody who was his own size or someone who would go back at him? If your gonna say Ben Wallace your gonna have to guess again. He had a chance at Big Ben & he chose a differant path.

    Now I don't want this to break down into a whole brawl debate again, I just am pointing out that once again when Ron raised a fist it was over a person who was really smaller than him.

    I will always go back to the Derrik Coleman issue. If Ron ever had justification to get up & take out somebody it was when Coleman litterally knocked out Ron's front teeth. But all he did was hold his mouth.

    However little Quinten Richardson offends him by dunking on him he gets an elbow to the face.

    Yes, yes I know he did the right thing with Ben. I'm not denying that, it's just funny that everytime I see him going after a fan in the stands it is to scare them into what? I guess into being better fans or something.


    Now to wrap this up let me say this.

    By all rights this guy should be my favorite Pacer, hell maybe of all-time. However I just can't get past the crap to apprecaite the talent he has all of the time.

    Now also having said all of that I want it known that I know he will be here next year & so whether I like it or not I have no choice but to root for him to do good.

    Ok, I'm prepared for the flaming I'm about to receive, so have at it.


    actually...mel daniels is bigger than he is.....but i dont think thats what u mean...

    this pretty much sums it up for me....and i truly hope u will really reflect on this last issue...

    you have effectively said that it doesnt matter what ron does he cant win with u.....if he backs away from ben wallace its because hes a bully and has nothing to do with him trying to do the right thing....and if he had went after ben, what would u have said-same ole ron more distractions, hasnt changed...

    peck...and i mean this with all due respect....u ve made it obvious that u dont like him....i would propose or at least hope, that everything u outlined to me in this very well thought out post doesnt say that....what it has said is u truly dont like rons behavior at times....that u find it totally uncacceptable....u havent really told me or described to me how u dont like him....in fact by your own words he should be ur favorite....this is very telling....

    because ur basically saying i dont like the way ron responds or exercises judgement in certain scenarios....thats really what i take from all this...and its a far cry from not liking the guy...IN FACT
    what u have really done is identify whats truly the issue....

    U DO LIKE THE GUY...U LOVE THE GUY...HE SHOULD BE UR FAVORITE...but u cant allow urself to have a favorite that has behaved the way he has....and i understand that....i really really do....its like u have built this defense mechanism to keep from being hurt by ron any more...

    u quit giving him a chance a long time ago...u just couldnt risk it....cause u knew he would break ur heart...i mean he always does....and every thing that happens u just say to anyone that listens...'see, i told u so' i was right...wanting that validation that the decision u made was the right one-even though somewhere inside its not the one u want....

    i dont want to make this too deep....but at the same time, it seems very clear to me....i just couldnt understand and still cant understand how it is possible to have such disdain/hate for a basketball player even if they are guilty of inappropriate responses and poor judgement....

    but now we see its really not about that...its about putting our trust in someone and then having them let us down....and that can cause the venom to spew....

    so i would say this....and i began to touch on it in a post on this thread earlier...

    i understand how all of the events u described are uncacceptable...with most of them i agreed....however, i try to really understand why people do what they do...not just what they do....because peoples responses and reactions are very telling....

    some people are just a$$holes and d!cks....i really dont think ron falls in that category...and i dont think u think he does either...its very apparent that ron has deepseated emotional issues with regarding response mechanisms that come from way way back....its also pretty apparent that he needs to continue to get the help that he obviously has been getting since larry bird came on board....these issues arent easily resolved and definitely take some time....but if u look very very closely, and are truly objective...he has made progress...he really has....is he better?? hardly....will he have relapses? certainly....so that means more risks for those that choose to put a certain amount of faith in him...but really....is he a bad guy? no...you cant help but like tons of things about him...u know thats true....its called managed expectations....its about understanding all thats really goiing on...so u can better deal with it...not just us as fans but the players and organization as well.....
    having a proper understanding of what problems are go along way to helping deal with the ebbs and flows that they can create....being a fan and not having any idea at times, can be even more difficult...and i truly understand why people would simply not risk trusting him....

    but at the very least...dont hate him...because u reallly dont...u actually like so many, many things about him...you only hate some of his behavior patterns from the past...realize why he has done those things-that hes got some very deep seated problems with the way he sometimes processes things...and take consolance that hes working on making them better...though probably will never do so as quickly as we would all like, especially ron....trust me when i tell u...as difficult as it is on the organization and us fans....there is no one its more difficult for than ron....the pacers can just trade him away....the fans just can choose to hate him....ron has to live with his life and can only choose to try and work thru all those events that took place in his childhood that caused him to think the way that he does....

  4. #104
    Member SycamoreKen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Age
    44
    Posts
    10,413

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    and i think this is probably where the fact that the pacers franchise is a business and the school is not becomes a difference....it definitely becomes in the pacers best interests to insure he gets better....they have a tremendous investment and are trying to win a title and more than likely feel that rons improving improves their franchise and their business as well as their chances to win that title-which is really the main goal...

    ive said it before...and ill probably say it again....a managements responsibility is to identify and maximize an employees strong points...while identifying and improving his liabilities....

    only when u dont feel like the potential is there do u just cast off the project...i dont think its so hard to determine why the pacers feel hes worth the added effort...i also feel like the pacers are a special organization-meaning id like to think my hometown team has a special place in its heart for one of its own that they can help...while its no charity case-they stand to gain tremendously by doing so-i like the idea that theyre not so quick to pass him off just because its a difficult and involved process to better ron as well as the organization...
    I completely understand where you are coming from. I am not ready just to bail on Ron unless we can make the team better. I know that the team feels the same way, which is right because it is a buisness. Now, if the team wouldn't make a move because they felt some obligation to help Ron get better, then I might have a problem. As I said before, I can see where everyone is coming from on in Ron's case.

  5. #105
    Harmonica
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    you need a history lesson....almost from the beginning of my coming here u have interjected ur little bs remarks and personal jabs-to which i ignored all of them for the most part-because i realized them for what they were-immature rantings-ive seen it many times on message boards before...people who are more interested in trying to interject things to simply get a response...its called trolling-posting for effect-no content-and trying to get a rise out of someone....and yes...thats exactly what uve done with nearly every post uve posted towards me....with absolutely no regard for content...

    the mistake i made was finally responding to ur childish banter...and for that im very regretful....because since i did, uve only sought to escalate the same activity....which only stands to reason for someone whos only interested in developing some sort of rise and not interested in content....

    go ahead...review all ur comments from my day 1 here....they all have the same common denominator...and anyone that looks at them will see them for the obvious troll they are....and ur probably most happy now, because this type of response is like nirvana for a troll....

    and yes...i will leave u out of my discussions....and it was probably a mistake to even mention u-but instead of responding to another one of ur ridiculous troll posts just a few posts prior, i chose only to indirectly address u....yes...i was sick of ur ***** then, and am sick of ur ***** now...every response u make towards me is completely off topic and a personal flame....why ive even acknowledged it is beyond me-bcause i know it only flames the fire...

    in summary...yes...this is an open forum....but if u want to be left out of my discussions there was a simple solution....STAY OUT OF THEM....keep ur bs troll posts to urself....
    Oh, quit your silly grandstanding. If anyone is given to childish rants, it's you. My responses to you have been short and to the point. Anytime someone has politely suggested that you make your posts more legible, you've taken it as a personal affront and proceeded to tell them you don't give a crap what they think.

    I was going to let this go, but your twisting of the truth (above) prompted me to respond. Actually, you are the one who is in need of a history lesson. You are aware that you can view old posts here. Here is my first post addressed to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    foretaz, welcome to the board, but may I make a suggestion? I know the bold purple type represents a symbol of your individuality and your belief in personal freedom, but it is damn difficult to read. From what I can tell, you have a lot to bring to a discussion, but I can't get through your posts. Black type on a white page is the norm for a reason. It's easiest on the eyes. I'm only saying this because I want to read your posts without going half blind trying to do so.
    To which UB responded in the very next post, "I agree, I simply can't read it."

    Why you took that personally is beyond me. Now, if you want to keep this going and continue to resort to name-calling, we can address this with Hicks. I'm getting a little sick of your shÓt as well, especially when it was unwarranted in the first place.

  6. #106
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In the Bonzi Wells thread he asked me:

    peck....i respect u...and thats why i ask this question....

    when u speak of artest....its like u become someone other than urself....

    u dont speak of opponents players the way you do of artest...in fact u never speak like u do when u discuss artest....its just so, so far out of character for u....

    why?....theres a fine line between love and hate, i know....but its almost like the sheer mention of artest seems to just hit a button and u become some other person....the obvious negative emotion u feel towards him just seems to be so out of character....

    and i cant understand, why...these types of emotions are usually only reserved for very personal relationships....its almost like u react like a woman scorned would....but im assuming thats far from the truth....

    so, again, im curious....why is it so personal with u where ron is concerned versus ur typical take on all other players and issues-a usually fairly unbiased and rational approach....im just very intriqued how a basketball player of any kind can evoke such a dramatic, somewhat irrational response from someone that appears to be just the opposite....

    so again, i ask with all due respect....why?
    maybe ill think twice before i ask u another question

    seriously, let me try to summarize, maybe it will allow my head to quit spinning...

    what i really got from u whole response was this....
    deep down...u really like the guy...or at least really really liked the guy at one time...

    the reason its so personal for u is u allowed urself to trust him....to like him...to put faith in him....to put hope in him....

    and he let u down....he failed u...a number of times...

    so its much safer to not trust him anymore....and continually validate that decision by pointing out all of his continued behavioral issues...

    and its definitely not safe to allow that he might actually be improving, because that would mean that u would have to reconsider putting trust in him and that would be risky....

    so u would really just prefer to not hear anything that might cause u to question that decision or even revisit it...its much safer to just leave things the way they are....outwardly dislike ron and give zero chance for reversing that decision....

    and i wasted a ton of bandwidth figuring that out....and i hope u will at least consider not hating him...and more importantly really understand what appears to being going on with him...as well as ur 'relationship with him'...

  7. #107
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    by your own words u said that u thought he had gotten better in 2003-04...if ud like ill dig them up...u just said them a bit earlier....nevertheless...

    i disagree with u on the purpose of the thread...i had asked peck why it seemed he was so out of character when discussing artest...why he appeared to have such a deep seated disdain for ron....

    to say that what he does in the future makes u right...is a very telling statement...

    personally, since hes a member of the pacers, i would hope that even if u feel the way that u do...that u would at least u would hope that u would be wrong....but it doesnt appear by that statement that that is the case...sorry to hear that...

    personally, id always prefer things work out the best for people...even if i have my doubts....especially when the people involved obviously have deep seated troubling issues....

    but i wish u luck and appreciate u taking the time to offer ur contributions...they were well stated and well thought out...thx
    Well, for the Pacers' sake I'd like to be wrong but I won't be. Its not my fault they are too stubborn to cut thier losses.

    I wish him luck the best of luck with another team. He's a heck of a talent; too bad he's wasted it.

    Jay's_Wife@Section204 is standing over my shoulder, telling me I'm too pessimistic... I guess I shouldn't show her the results of the poll.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  8. #108
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,878

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    *Cue the music*

    Why cant we be friends, why cant we be friends.........

    *GROUP HUG*






    Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  9. #109
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Well, for the Pacers' sake I'd like to be wrong but I won't be. Its not my fault they are too stubborn to cut thier losses.

    I wish him luck the best of luck with another team. He's a heck of a talent; too bad he's wasted it.

    Jay's_Wife@Section204 is standing over my shoulder, telling me I'm too pessimistic... I guess I shouldn't show her the results of the poll.
    i might tend to agree with jays wife....while i understand where the pessimism might come from i still cant help but hope that some of u try to have a bit more open mind...and just realize he plays for the team u love....and realize that there are much more qualified people than u and i who have a lot more indepth knowledge of the situation making the decisions....

  10. #110
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,878

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    i might tend to agree with jays wife....while i understand where the pessimism might come from i still cant help but hope that some of u try to have a bit more open mind...and just realize he plays for the team u love....and realize that there are much more qualified people than u and i who have a lot more indepth knowledge of the situation making the decisions....
    The funny thing is... over time... a lot of the complaints and questions of reasoned posters end up showing they were right all along (or at least onto something).

    Sometimes, money plays more of role into why a player is held onto (or traded) than simply the hierarchy's "more indepth knowledge of the situation" (as it pertains to basketball).

    As fans, we don't have to worry about the money so we can discuss what is best for the on the court product without concerning ourselves with what it does to the bottom line. Some of us would even argue that we are considering the bottom line but being less short-sighted about it. But then, as fans, we can do that. Gambling on spending more money with the idea of a championship taking care of the bottom line is a gamble that we don't have to worry how it will affect our wallet (hmmmm except at the ticket booth).


    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  11. #111
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,685

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ron is a good player, but he doesn't have Duncan or Lebron type importance. Even if Ron was as great as Duncan or Lebron, he would still not be worth the trouble.


    So far, no NBA team has ever won an NBA championship with Ron Artest on their squad. Believe it or not, a team is going to win the 2005 title without Ron on their team. I have an odd hunch that there will be future titles won without the great Artest. The Indiana Pacers made it to the finals once without him. I know, I know....It's hard to believe a team could win it all without a player thats as "amazing" as Ron is, and without a player that doesnt have Ron's "freakish" physical talents.
    nevermind

  12. #112
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,344

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So you're saying that Duncan and Lebron aren't worth a lot of trouble. If you want to win a championship they are

    Your second paragraph I've quoteds is nonsensical. Other have said the same thing, and it makes no sense to.

    Duncan and Lebron so far have had no problems. I wasn't speaking of them specifically, I was speaking hypothetically. Meaning that, even if a player had their skill level, but caused the problems that Ron has.....I don't think they'd be worth it.....Obviously, you disagree.

    Let me explain the second paragraph. I wrote that in response to the tone I get from Ron supporters that "if the Pacers lose Ron, they definitely won't be winning." I'm not quoting anyone, that's just the overall message I get. I get the impression that some think the Pacers are eternally damned if Ron gets traded out of here(I don't think he will). I'm just giving my opinion that if the Pacers tried something else out, something without Ron, that I think they'd be fine.

    Unclebuck, I really do hope I am eating major crow a year from now. I hope I'm totally wrong. I hope that Ron causes no problems, plays his *** off, and we have a successfull season. I hope I'm not right about this, but I just have the negative hunch that he is always going to be a problem solver.

    In the end, we both just want what's best for the Pacers. And all we want is the Pacers to win basketball games....and eventually a title. We just have 2 different approaches.

    Obviously, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

  13. #113
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I agree that's nonsense. I've always chuckled at that, because its factually true but its also true that no team has won a championship with LBJ either.

    But its also nonsense to say this guy, who hasn't really won anything at any level, is so crucial to the Pacers' championship hopes.

    Stephen Jackson has a ring, and he's less volatile than Ron, and he was also - what - the fourth option on that Spurs team? He had some big games, but they didn't depend on him to be a second or third option (and they had GREAT leaders in Duncan and Robinson to keep him in line.)

    I suppose if the Pacers were reconstructed so that Ron wasn't the second/third most important player (depending on your opinion of Tinsley) but instead he was the fourth or fifth most important player, then that would increase the Pacers' currently slim chances of winning a championship with him.

    Oops, I'm supposed to stay out of here. Sorry.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #114
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,344

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    nevermind


    Sorry, I read and quoted it before you erased it. I can erase my reply if you like.

  15. #115

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Does Artest not get any credit for working on his game. His improvement since his Bulls days or even since his first year or so as a Pacer has been nothing short of remarkable. He has made himself a star player. What does that show us about his character. Many of you seem to be saying well yes Ron is a great talent, but he was always a great talent, No he wasn't.
    Great point.

    Ron's hard work and understanding of how to play the game are also signs of intelliegence, something many of these evaluators of Artest's character also imply he lacks.

    I have to laugh though at an irony:

    Peck hates Artest, he says, because many on this board excuse Ron for his sins; I defend Artest, partly, because many on this board make judgements about Ron that I do not think are fair or accurate.

    I suspect the truth about Ron is somewhere in the middle. Ron is not an evil bully, nor is he a saint.

    I can only say I have met the man twice now outside of a basketball setting or public appearance and both times were positive experiences. Ron is not in the slightest intimidating. And I can be intimated by celebrities pretty easily. Unassuming, but friendly enough, would be an accurate description.

    I'm an old guy, so maybe I get a pass from Ron. But I don't think that is the case. For those of you old enough to know Hallie Bryant, IU great from Indianapolis and Harlem Globetrotter legend and front man, chatting with Ron Artest reminded me of when I first met a young Hallie Bryant. There is that same charisma. A high likability quotient. Hallie is more verbal, but Ron has that same ease of accessibility and genuinness that have served Hallie so well.

    Just wanted to make that observation in hopes of making the point that there really is a middle ground here about Ron Artest that some might miss.

  16. #116
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,685

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sorry, I read and quoted it before you erased it. I can erase my reply if you like.


    No that it all right, I deleted it because I really didn't like what I posted. But no problem

  17. #117
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The funny thing is... over time... a lot of the complaints and questions of reasoned posters end up showing they were right all along (or at least onto something).

    Sometimes, money plays more of role into why a player is held onto (or traded) than simply the hierarchy's "more indepth knowledge of the situation" (as it pertains to basketball).

    As fans, we don't have to worry about the money so we can discuss what is best for the on the court product without concerning ourselves with what it does to the bottom line. Some of us would even argue that we are considering the bottom line but being less short-sighted about it. But then, as fans, we can do that. Gambling on spending more money with the idea of a championship taking care of the bottom line is a gamble that we don't have to worry how it will affect our wallet (hmmmm except at the ticket booth).


    -Bball
    i guess i dont understand this concept of a fan wanting to be right...i understand fans wanting to win championships...wanting to win games...but wanting to be right about a player they feel is a distraction on creates disruptions on the team they hold in such high esteem? i dont get that...i think i would want to be wrong on that..not right...

    and if this is some sort of consolation to some...to be able to say, i knew it would happen...well...that speaks to me of much more different issues...

    we all hate to be disappointed as fans...and losing is ultimately what does that....and i would venture to say that most all of the detractors of artest would be ecstatic if we won a championship with him....and say that they never wouldve thought it possible....

    but as long as we dont, instead of grieving a loss, they can just blame it on ron and say i told u so....and take some sort of consolance in being right....

    that, to me....is lame.....and almost cowardly....even borderline on being a poor sport...but thats just my opinion....and i dont expect to have everyone agree....

  18. #118
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,685

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I suppose if the Pacers were reconstructed so that Ron wasn't the second/third most important player (depending on your opinion of Tinsley) but instead he was the fourth or fifth most important player, then that would increase the Pacers' currently slim chances of winning a championship with him.


    Ron a 4th or 5th most important player. I don't see how that is possible. He's too good to be that far down the pecking order. Unless he's on a dream team. This is an interesting question is there a team in the league where Ron would be anything less than the 2nd most important player on the team. Add him to any team and I would argue that Ron would be no worse than the 2nd most important player.

  19. #119
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,344

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ron a 4th or 5th most important player. I don't see how that is possible. He's too good to be that far down the pecking order. Unless he's on a dream team. This is an interesting question is there a team in the league where Ron would be anything less than the 2nd most important player on the team. Add him to any team and I would argue that Ron would be no worse than the 2nd most important player.

    I agree that Ron won't ever be a 4th or 5th most important player.

    But I can give you teams that have 2 more important players......IMO

    Miami Heat....I really don't see how you can say Ron is more important than Shaq or Wade, no matter how good you think Ron is.

    Pheonix Suns...I could argue that Nash, Amare, and Marion are all better players, but someone else could say that ROn is better than all 3.

    Detroit Pistons.....if you added Ron, I'd still say that Rip, Chauncey, Ben and Sheed are more important to that team

    Houston Rockets....whether Ron is better or not, Yao Ming determines that teams success. And I think we can all agree that TMAC is a better player

  20. #120
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,685

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I agree that Ron won't ever be a 4th or 5th most important player.

    But I can give you teams that have 2 more important players......IMO

    Miami Heat....I really don't see how you can say Ron is more important than Shaq or Wade, no matter how good you think Ron is.

    Pheonix Suns...I could argue that Nash, Amare, and Marion are all better players, but someone else could say that ROn is better than all 3.

    Detroit Pistons.....if you added Ron, I'd still say that Rip, Chauncey, Ben and Sheed are more important to that team

    Houston Rockets....whether Ron is better or not, Yao Ming determines that teams success. And I think we can all agree that TMAC is a better player
    Pistons are such a strange team (I mean that in a good way) it is too difficult to figure out a pecking order with them.

    Suns: I think Ron is better than Marion, no doubt in my mmind about that. He'd be #3 there.

    Heat: Ron would be #3 there for now

    Rockets: I think Ron is a better tplayer than Yao, so I'd say he'd be number 2 there.

    But how many teams would Ron be the most important player. lets not take into account the distractions just for fun. Wow this list is longer than I thought. This is about every team in the league

    Hawks
    Bobcats
    Grizzles
    Blazers
    Jazz
    Nuggets
    Mavs - yes more important than Dirk
    Clippers
    Warriors
    Kings
    Bucks
    Bulls
    Celtics
    Raptors
    Knicks
    Wizards
    Hornets
    Magic
    Pacers - what?

  21. #121
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Great point.

    Ron's hard work and understanding of how to play the game are also signs of intelliegence, something many of these evaluators of Artest's character also imply he lacks.

    I have to laugh though at an irony:

    Peck hates Artest, he says, because many on this board excuse Ron for his sins; I defend Artest, partly, because many on this board make judgements about Ron that I do not think are fair or accurate.

    I suspect the truth about Ron is somewhere in the middle. Ron is not an evil bully, nor is he a saint.

    I can only say I have met the man twice now outside of a basketball setting or public appearance and both times were positive experiences. Ron is not in the slightest intimidating. And I can be intimated by celebrities pretty easily. Unassuming, but friendly enough, would be an accurate description.

    I'm an old guy, so maybe I get a pass from Ron. But I don't think that is the case. For those of you old enough to know Hallie Bryant, IU great from Indianapolis and Harlem Globetrotter legend and front man, chatting with Ron Artest reminded me of when I first met a young Hallie Bryant. There is that same charisma. A high likability quotient. Hallie is more verbal, but Ron has that same ease of accessibility and genuinness that have served Hallie so well.

    Just wanted to make that observation in hopes of making the point that there really is a middle ground here about Ron Artest that some might miss.
    this is a very, very telling post...

    these players, all of them, are treated much more like objects than they are humans...its almost like theyre not real human beings ... they have no real personal connection to us....theyre members of our team...and we want our team to win...cause winning provides us with pleasure...and losing provides us with pain.....

    sometimes it appears theyre nothing more than very expensive whores-strictly here for our pleasure and enjoyment...and by the reactions of many-an overpriced whore that provided them with little or no satisfaction whatsoever....

    if u have that opportunity as u did....its amazing how ur perspective can change...once these objects are realized as actual real human beings...it changes things....it makes it real life drama instead of surreal entertainment....and these players are just living life and dealing with all its challenges just like we are....theyre not immune to problems just because they play basketball for a living or make more money than most....

    in many cases they have a whole set of different problems...ones that partially exist because there might have been those along the way that tried to exploit them , once again treating them as an object and a means to an end instead of a real human being....

    i often wonder, when discussing ron, if he were a family member how people would respond....but until u actually have that physical connection its very difficult to fully appreciate things for what they really are....

    as long as we keep treating them like high priced hookers whose only purpose is our enjoyment, we will probably always feel like we never get our moneys worth....only when we realize theyre human beings just like us, with problems similar to us, will we ever truly be able to appreciate all the enjoyment that they can provide...

  22. #122
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Sure, but the point is that none of those are contenders. Ron can be the S.A.R./ Clark Kellogg of those teams - their best player but unable to lead them anywhere.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #123
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,878

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    i guess i dont understand this concept of a fan wanting to be right...i understand fans wanting to win championships...wanting to win games...but wanting to be right about a player they feel is a distraction on creates disruptions on the team they hold in such high esteem? i dont get that...i think i would want to be wrong on that..not right...

    I think you just hit the nail on the head without realizing it... I don't think any one of the people who are preaching against, or worrying about, Ron Artest WANT to be right. They (and I include myself in that group) want to be wrong and sincerely hope he can get his act together. He is a terrific basketball player when he applies himself and doesn't let his head unravel. He's (IMHO) the Pacers best player and the Pacer that makes the players around him better. OTOH, he's also been the PMLTS (Pacer most likely to snap). We can't just overlook some of the childish antics we've been privy to (claiming illness or injury when he doesn't want to go to school... errrr I mean play basketball because he's mad at the teacher...errrrr coach and classmates...errrrr teammates (see my point?). It will take a lot of work on his part to convince some of us he has gotten past all that.

    But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Pacer fan who doesn't hope he has grown past that and hopes their predictions of future eruptions (based on past behavior) aren't wrong.

    Nobody WANTS to be right when they are predicting gloom and doom for the Pacers (no Pacer fan anyway). IE: I hope I am wrong about Bender (BUST!) but he keeps proving me right year after year.


    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  24. #124
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,344

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Pistons are such a strange team (I mean that in a good way) it is too difficult to figure out a pecking order with them.

    Suns: I think Ron is better than Marion, no doubt in my mmind about that. He'd be #3 there.

    Heat: Ron would be #3 there for now

    Rockets: I think Ron is a better tplayer than Yao, so I'd say he'd be number 2 there.

    But how many teams would Ron be the most important player. lets not take into account the distractions just for fun. Wow this list is longer than I thought. This is about every team in the league

    Hawks
    Bobcats
    Grizzles
    Blazers
    Jazz
    Nuggets
    Mavs - yes more important than Dirk
    Clippers
    Warriors
    Kings
    Bucks
    Bulls
    Celtics
    Raptors
    Knicks
    Wizards
    Hornets
    Magic
    Pacers - what?

    I agree about Detroit. The Pistons are certainly the strangest team to ever win an NBA championship. I mean that in a good way as well.

    I agree that Ron is a better player than Yao as well. But Yao would be more important regardless. The Rockets are going to live and die by Yao.

    I disagree about the Mavs. I think Dirk is more important.

    I agree about the Pacers. Yes, that's right, I said it. I prefer that he be traded, but I know that wont happen. So our success next year mostly hingest on how he comes back, plays, and if he controls himself. That, and a combination of JO maturing.

    Like I mentioned in a previous post, I hope I'm eating crow at this time next year. That means that Ron would have kept it together for an entire season, and the Pacers 05-06 season would have been a huge success.

    Maybe you and I think more alike than I thought. Well, we are both huge Seinfeld fans.

  25. #125
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think you just hit the nail on the head without realizing it... I don't think any one of the people who are preaching against, or worrying about, Ron Artest WANT to be right. They (and I include myself in that group) want to be wrong and sincerely hope he can get his act together. He is a terrific basketball player when he applies himself and doesn't let his head unravel. He's (IMHO) the Pacers best player and the Pacer that makes the players around him better. OTOH, he's also been the PMLTS (Pacer most likely to snap). We can't just overlook some of the childish antics we've been privy to (claiming illness or injury when he doesn't want to go to school... errrr I mean play basketball because he's mad at the teacher...errrrr coach and classmates...errrrr teammates (see my point?). It will take a lot of work on his part to convince some of us he has gotten past all that.

    But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Pacer fan who doesn't hope he has grown past that and hopes their predictions of future eruptions (based on past behavior) aren't wrong.

    Nobody WANTS to be right when they are predicting gloom and doom for the Pacers (no Pacer fan anyway). IE: I hope I am wrong about Bender (BUST!) but he keeps proving me right year after year.


    -Bball

    well....i might volunteer this....for people who want to be wrong about this situation they sure have a funny way of showing it....

    it appears more to me that they want to have it both ways....they wanna win....but dont want to give 'proper' support...so that when we lose it doesnt hurt as bad because theyre able to say 'i told u so'.....

    its a bit of a sellout to me...but thats just my opinion....

    who cant be supportive of things when they are done the way we see fit...or agree with....

    true support and faith revolves around those issues that we dont agree with or find difficult to understand....u dont have to like these things, but supporting them seems to be almost a responsibility as a true fan....

    i dont look at it much different than a coaching strategy, for instance....i may not agree with certain philosophies...i might not like a certain assistant...but im a pacer fan....and to maintain any sort of sanity, its a necessity to trust and believe that every member of the organization from the owners right down to the ballboys want the same things....primarily based on winning a championship...and furthermore i gotta believe that everyone is doing everything they can do make that happen....

    cause if i dont do that....what am i really doing??? am i saying ill only support them if they do things my way?....or i will support them but begrudginly so? hell whats the point then??? seems im only a step away from only supporting them when they win....i just dont like that road and where it goes....

    if u support the team u support it....u might not like or agree with everything but u still support it....thats why its called being a fan...its rather fanatical....

    to pick and choose players or coaches or philosophies just doesnt seem hardly fair....im not saying anyone or anything is above criticism...i think its very possible to criticize while being supportive....but not only is some of what goes on not constructive criticism, it basically is nothing more than pure disdain and hate....and to me thats difficult to fathom when ur talking about ur team of choice...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •