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Thread: An answer for Fortaz......

  1. #76
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Don't get me wrong, I in no way endorse what Ron did, nor am I saying that what he did was right or excusable. He was wrong, and he did something really stupid this year.

    But I don't believe him to be this crazed lunatic that many think he is. I think what he does is correctable, and though he did something stupid, I think that he is fully capable of coming back next year and performing like an allstar. What kind of excuse can you give for the way he acts on the court? Stupid? Crazed? Mentally incapable? Who knows, because honestly none of us have a clue. But I believe that the he gets lost in the game sometimes, and because he doesn't know where not to cross the line sometimes, it results in smashed cameras and going into the stands.

    i know u dont endorse his actions...and i truly hope noone does...those people would seriously concern me...as far as this year is concerned...its not just this year...if this was an isolated incident then we wouldnt even be having this conversation...

    ron is not a crazed lunatic....what ron does is correctible-because its behavior and response oriented...and it has nothing at all to do with being stupid...i too believe he is able to come back and perform like an allstar...i believe it is very possible for him to come back and have a monster season that merits mvp consideration...however, in not so naive to believe that this will happen on its own....and it really doesnt have much to do with getting lost in games or not knowing where the line is or anything else....

    its very simple in one regard, but incredibly complex in another....ron has deep seated emotional issues....issues that have dictated his behavior all his life...these things are neither easy to work thru nor easily admitted...and as difficult as that process is its even more difficult to begin to reprogram some of his responses that have developed and been inculcated into his brain for so many years....you dont just change ur behavior overnite....no matter what it might be....

    in laymans terms, ron is programmed wrong...it doesnt make him stupid...it doesnt make him crazy, per se....it means hes gone thru life in such a way that things have scarred him in a way that the way he reacts to certain situations are not going to be anything but detestable from a behavior standpoint....

    its quite obvious that rons behavior bottomed out a couple years ago....and at the time that larry came on board its pretty obvious that things took a turn.....prior to larry being here, that sort of behavior was more coddled and cajoled by isiah than anything else....which was basically ignoring the real problem and just trying to find a way to deal with the results...which only makes it worse....

    its quite apparent that once bird got here, that steps were then taken to begin to truly remedy the situation....no matter what u hear and read its quite obvious that ron has been in some deep therapy from the time larry got here....

    im not sure how much everyone might know about this sort of thing....but its not all a bed of roses once u start....however it starts the road to recovery and ultimately things being much better....

    are there relapses...u betcha.....the playoff incidents that people mention...yup....the brawl...yup....the comments that were made prior to the brawl regarding the time off were a major indicator....

    there are major issues at work here....i applaud the pacers organization....many of u would just have them dump ron a long time ago....which definitely is an option....but they saw the potential that he has...they also began to identify the problems....and realized the road to reaping rewards might not be easy and be problematic...but would be well worth it once they got there....

    if someone is truly family....u stick with them thru the tough times...if the family member has real problems...then u get him real help....i truly believe ron never got any real help till bird got here...everyone thru his highschool, college and early pro days just tried to get the most out of his nearly superhuman physical skills realizing if they could somehow muddle thru the negatives he would be gone sooner or later and they could move on while having reaped the benefits his basketball ability provided to them personally and organizationally....however this only cultivated the problem more....and sooner or later it cant be shoved under the carpet...it has to come to a head....

    and it did....and now, believe it or not, hes definitely on the road to recovery....yes...many detractors will say they will believe it when they see it....but then again, the way the majority of society typically loooks at people with problems similar to this is one of the main reasons that these people have these problems to begin with....

    the attitude to just ship them off instead of getting the issue fixed because the fix is involved and difficult....they take the easy way out...its popular...

    every once in a while a talent comes along...whether in basketball or anything else that is simply amazing....definitely far above the norm....ron is that talent, most of us would agree...which is interesting in itself....hes almost a physical freak....and hes widely regarded as a great human being....these things should tell us something...

    if hes got a willingness and desire like few others to succeed....if his commitment level is unsurpassed....and the guy is genuinely a nice guy...and hes a freakishly talented basketball player....then whats missing?????

    good management...no great management, when they recognize talent that has its drawbacks....seeks out those drawbacks....and works feverishly to better them, all the while knowing what awaits them in the end....

    in a situation like rons, it requires constant attention and confirmation and reassurance....and the road hasnt been easy and it will almost certainly have more hiccups....what actually would have been a major step forward when ron walked away from ben wallace turned into a relapse when the illfated cup hit its target...the penalty for that relapse was unbelievably severe...but at the same time... it actually sped up his recovery in some ways...

    its easy to just toss aside a problem u dont really understand...let alone how to fix it...and not many would ever blame the pacers for doing so...fortunately they not only dont take this position, but realize ron is a human being and that the pacers organization as a whole, their fans, the nba, and ron will be much , much better off by doing things the hard way and working thru rons serious issues together....yes..they may have selfish motives...but nonetheless...everyone benefits in the end.....

    the road isnt easy....the rare things in life that are ultimately so satisfying rarely are....but for those that understand these things are able to stay focused on them...the rewards will be remarkable....

  2. #77

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    That was a terrifc post
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  3. #78
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Ron was blamed for the rift between him and JO. JO telling Ron that he(Ron) couldn't get on his(JO's) plane, and such. Jax wasn't around last year, so he couldn't be part of that problem.

    This year, a problem arises between Jax and Mr. X, but most believe JO. Obviously Ron wasn't around, so he can't be a part of this either.

    I'm starting to lean more towards JO just doesn't really know how to be a leader, or a teammate for that matter. To me he just seems like he has an attitude about him, and has his own layed out plans, and if you don't fall in line or fit his plan he gets verbal. That's what I'm saying without knowing all the facts. It could most definately be all Ron, but at the same time he might just be JOs scapegoat for his emotions.

    Gotta run... but I'll agree that JO has been showing "growing pains" as a leader and I've been concerned. I think he'll get there, but he doesn't exactly have the most compliant guys following his lead and that never helps.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  4. #79
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    No that was stupid. But people forget that his grandmother had just died, so it wouldn't be wrong to feel that way. He just doesn't know how to say/express something without sounding as though he's gone crazy.

    Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

    Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.

  5. #80

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

    Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.
    Like I said, people have different ways of expressing themselves. Ben Wallace's brother died shortly before the brawl, can't you say he overreacted? Ron did not threaten retirement, it was simply a means for him to get away from it all. People have different ways of thinking and dealing with pain. I will never get upset at a person for that.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  6. #81
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I have an honest question for everyone.

    How is Ron so great, that this entire franchise should just bow down to him? Like Peck said, we had JO talking about how he wanted to make Ron feel more welcome in the beginning of the season. That's basically babysitting.

    Ron is a good player, but he doesn't have Duncan or Lebron type importance. Even if Ron was as great as Duncan or Lebron, he would still not be worth the trouble.

    Foretaz, in your post, you're making it sound like Artest is a Jordan-like talent. Artest is just a very good player, that's super talented. He doesnt have the capability to lead a team, because, I don't really think he wants to. Like Peck mentioned, when Ron feels he is getting outplayed, he takes shots that are out of our offensive scheme. He hurts the team when he gets in a high pressure situation.

    Artest is not worth more than the dignity of this franchise. This team could easily survive without Ron Artest.......As long as he's here, I dont know if it will. I don't want a player on my team that is causing trouble with "the franchise player"

    So far, no NBA team has ever won an NBA championship with Ron Artest on their squad. Believe it or not, a team is going to win the 2005 title without Ron on their team. I have an odd hunch that there will be future titles won without the great Artest. The Indiana Pacers made it to the finals once without him. I know, I know....It's hard to believe a team could win it all without a player thats as "amazing" as Ron is, and without a player that doesnt have Ron's "freakish" physical talents.

    I know, I know, Ron is a "great human being" atleast.

  7. #82
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Like I said, people have different ways of expressing themselves. Ben Wallace's brother died shortly before the brawl, can't you say he overreacted? Ron did not threaten retirement, it was simply a means for him to get away from it all. People have different ways of thinking and dealing with pain. I will never get upset at a person for that.

    I thought Ron said he wanted to retire because he wanted to be a big rap star?

  8. #83
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Fortaze,

    You make some excellent points, some of which I've been saying for years.

    I disagree with some others. There's no way I'm convinced that Ron's problems have bottomed out and that he's been improving since Bird/ Rick were here. Its not as public, and perhaps not as frequent, but the individual incidents have been even more devastating. This guy was benched last season for "conduct detrimental to winning" and quit on the team this season. That's not improvement. Not to mention the meltdown in the playoffs.

    Second - and I'm usually the first to complain about Isiah's coaching, but Isiah tried numerous approaches and they all failed. Certianly I would've preferred a harsher stance, but Isiah even tried that and its hard to fault Zeke for Ron's misdeeds.

    As you've basically said, about six bazillion things have to go right for Ron to rise above his destructive habits and then about five mega-zillion things have to go right for the Pacers to win a title. if somebody said, we'll keep Ron, because we believe our window of opportunity is still five seasons away, then I'd say "fine", keep him, take that gamble. But I think the rest of the team (or 14 new players ) can be ready much sooner than that.

    There's more in there, but I can only see so much on my blackberry at a time.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #84
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Like I said, people have different ways of expressing themselves. Ben Wallace's brother died shortly before the brawl, can't you say he overreacted? Ron did not threaten retirement, it was simply a means for him to get away from it all. People have different ways of thinking and dealing with pain. I will never get upset at a person for that.
    You keep on believing that, and I'll keep calling you "ostrich"
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #85
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Back to fortaze,

    That's the first I've ever heard anyone hint that Ron started counseling before the brawl or when Bird first arrived. Has anyone else heard this?

    As far as I know, the counseling didn't begin until Stern mandated it.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  11. #86
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I thought Ron said he wanted to retire because he wanted to be a big rap star?
    Yes, you're right. He wanted to retire to become a rap star.

    How can you talk like this, when you don't even know what you're really talking about? He did not release an album, a women trio that is under his label released an album......

    I'd just like to know how facts always seem to get twisted. It's just a big pet peeve of mine as reporters recalling the brawl as Ron going into the stands swining on people, it's just not accurate. How do you think Ron's conversation with whoever went?

    Ron: "I've been thinking. I'm a good really album producer, so I'm going to retire to devote all my energy on that.

    Pacers brass: "We don't think you should retire, to become a rap star..
    Ron: "No, not a...."
    Pacers brass: "So we'll give you two games to sit on the bench to work out some lyrics...
    Ron: "but I don't need lyrics.."
    Pacers brass: "and if you don't come up with anything good, you can come back and play."
    Ron: "but...."
    Pacers Brass: "okay, that's settled. Now what were you saying about some nagging injuries and that your grandmother dying?"

  12. #87
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Back to fortaze,

    That's the first I've ever heard anyone hint that Ron started counseling before the brawl or when Bird first arrived. Has anyone else heard this?

    As far as I know, the counseling didn't begin until Stern mandated it.
    do you really think this sort of info would be made public??...i know u would like to know...i know many fans would like to know...though it wouldnt really accomplish much...then they would just say things that are often said regarding people who seek counseling....once again its about a mindset....

    if ur down on someone....u will use whatever happens to only further that point...in this case...those of u that have disdain for ron would only be saying something like...the guy has been going to a shrink for over a year...its obvious hes nuts....or something like that....im not saying u would personally....but i think u catch my drift-at least i hope...noone...not ron, not the pacers stands to gain anything by their being a public admission of him being in therapy....

    some of u like to say the smokescreen bird uses to keep his trade value up...what the hell do u think would happen to that, let alone his reputation in the league if it were all over the papers he was in treatment...seriously? this is a very private matter that is noones business....except those that are very, very close to the situation....and by that i mean, even his fellow players would not be atune to this...but if u look at his behavior in the 'better season' 03-04...and are somewhat familiar with some psychological profiling...it becomes apparent that there was something definitely going on....that nite of the brawl, it was very very evident that there were things at work, believe it or not....this doesnt mean that everything is fixed once u start....its something that is a neverending process in a lot of ways....however progress definitely takes place....its unbelievable how penal the nite of nov 19 ended up being....noone could ever dream that a 'relapse' could be so penal....as i said earlier...its kinda ironic that 2 or 3 years ago ron would have just gotten into a fight with ben....and the repercussions would have been far less severe...but sometimes progress can work out to be disadvantageous....

  13. #88
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

    Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.
    buildings,machines, and legos have screws....people dont...if only it were that simple...


  14. #89
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i know u dont endorse his actions...and i truly hope noone does...those people would seriously concern me...as far as this year is concerned...its not just this year...if this was an isolated incident then we wouldnt even be having this conversation...

    ron is not a crazed lunatic....what ron does is correctible-because its behavior and response oriented...and it has nothing at all to do with being stupid...i too believe he is able to come back and perform like an allstar...i believe it is very possible for him to come back and have a monster season that merits mvp consideration...however, in not so naive to believe that this will happen on its own....and it really doesnt have much to do with getting lost in games or not knowing where the line is or anything else....

    its very simple in one regard, but incredibly complex in another....ron has deep seated emotional issues....issues that have dictated his behavior all his life...these things are neither easy to work thru nor easily admitted...and as difficult as that process is its even more difficult to begin to reprogram some of his responses that have developed and been inculcated into his brain for so many years....you dont just change ur behavior overnite....no matter what it might be....

    in laymans terms, ron is programmed wrong...it doesnt make him stupid...it doesnt make him crazy, per se....it means hes gone thru life in such a way that things have scarred him in a way that the way he reacts to certain situations are not going to be anything but detestable from a behavior standpoint....

    its quite obvious that rons behavior bottomed out a couple years ago....and at the time that larry came on board its pretty obvious that things took a turn.....prior to larry being here, that sort of behavior was more coddled and cajoled by isiah than anything else....which was basically ignoring the real problem and just trying to find a way to deal with the results...which only makes it worse....

    its quite apparent that once bird got here, that steps were then taken to begin to truly remedy the situation....no matter what u hear and read its quite obvious that ron has been in some deep therapy from the time larry got here....

    im not sure how much everyone might know about this sort of thing....but its not all a bed of roses once u start....however it starts the road to recovery and ultimately things being much better....

    are there relapses...u betcha.....the playoff incidents that people mention...yup....the brawl...yup....the comments that were made prior to the brawl regarding the time off were a major indicator....

    there are major issues at work here....i applaud the pacers organization....many of u would just have them dump ron a long time ago....which definitely is an option....but they saw the potential that he has...they also began to identify the problems....and realized the road to reaping rewards might not be easy and be problematic...but would be well worth it once they got there....

    if someone is truly family....u stick with them thru the tough times...if the family member has real problems...then u get him real help....i truly believe ron never got any real help till bird got here...everyone thru his highschool, college and early pro days just tried to get the most out of his nearly superhuman physical skills realizing if they could somehow muddle thru the negatives he would be gone sooner or later and they could move on while having reaped the benefits his basketball ability provided to them personally and organizationally....however this only cultivated the problem more....and sooner or later it cant be shoved under the carpet...it has to come to a head....

    and it did....and now, believe it or not, hes definitely on the road to recovery....yes...many detractors will say they will believe it when they see it....but then again, the way the majority of society typically loooks at people with problems similar to this is one of the main reasons that these people have these problems to begin with....

    the attitude to just ship them off instead of getting the issue fixed because the fix is involved and difficult....they take the easy way out...its popular...

    every once in a while a talent comes along...whether in basketball or anything else that is simply amazing....definitely far above the norm....ron is that talent, most of us would agree...which is interesting in itself....hes almost a physical freak....and hes widely regarded as a great human being....these things should tell us something...

    if hes got a willingness and desire like few others to succeed....if his commitment level is unsurpassed....and the guy is genuinely a nice guy...and hes a freakishly talented basketball player....then whats missing?????

    good management...no great management, when they recognize talent that has its drawbacks....seeks out those drawbacks....and works feverishly to better them, all the while knowing what awaits them in the end....

    in a situation like rons, it requires constant attention and confirmation and reassurance....and the road hasnt been easy and it will almost certainly have more hiccups....what actually would have been a major step forward when ron walked away from ben wallace turned into a relapse when the illfated cup hit its target...the penalty for that relapse was unbelievably severe...but at the same time... it actually sped up his recovery in some ways...

    its easy to just toss aside a problem u dont really understand...let alone how to fix it...and not many would ever blame the pacers for doing so...fortunately they not only dont take this position, but realize ron is a human being and that the pacers organization as a whole, their fans, the nba, and ron will be much , much better off by doing things the hard way and working thru rons serious issues together....yes..they may have selfish motives...but nonetheless...everyone benefits in the end.....

    the road isnt easy....the rare things in life that are ultimately so satisfying rarely are....but for those that understand these things are able to stay focused on them...the rewards will be remarkable....
    BUT, and this is a big but, how long do you hold the franchise hostage to the plan of rebuilding Artest? As I said before, I am aware of his history and the problems he has faced. It is also obvious that many people have used him for his skills but not really helped his personal issues, which should have been addressed before he left school.

    There comes a time though when Ron has to make the decision to help himself. Sure the team can support him, but that is not their primary responsibility. This isn't a YMCA league. The other guys on the team are playing for their pay checks and can't afford to have to baby sit Ron in order to help themselves. As talented as he is, they have to be getting tired of it.

    If Ron doesn't understand what he is doing, and I have no idea if he does or not, than he won't fix the problem. Ron remindes me of the 4th graders I teach. They know how to talk the talk about right and wrong, but keep making the same dumb choices. When I ask them why they do that, they give me a look like they have no clue. I then have to sit down with them and reteach and explain how to change their ways. I also make the point though of stressing that it is not going to change until they decide to do it. Ron is tha same way.

    I hope like heck Ron has had the light come on and can get himself together. But, as Peck stated, until he does, I just can't bring myself to trust him yet.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Issue # 3.

    He's a great talent. Hell he may be the best player the Pacers have ever had but, IMO, it doesn't matter how good you are if you & your team mates & coach's cannot get along.
    i would say he could quite possibly be the best talent to ever have been here...very much so...hes definitely not the best player theyve ever had at this point in his career...but hes very young...time will tell....

    as far as the need to get along....i agree one hundred percent....but there is one thing id like to interject here...no one person, despite what a lot of people might want us to blieve, is totally responsible for team chemistry....i know the cancer theory-but that theory always involves more than one person...usually a rift between two people with one coming out looking like a cancer....

    the whole team is responsible for getting along...and more importantly it is managements responsibility to make sure that they get along in such a manner that is conducive to winning...ultimately i hold management responsible for this...not the players...and getting rid of the player is not the answer though definitely might be an easy way out....though totally counterproductive in some cases..

    i liken it to this(and many of u will probably have something smart to say-im sure ) you have a classroom full of students....u have a teacher...u have a principal...etc....the roles are easily identified...you may have one student that appears to always be disruptive....kicking him out of school is typically not the answer...nor is sending him to another class....together the teacher, principal, and parents hopefully work on dealing with the problems so that all in the classroom will have an environment that is much more conducive to learning....in this case subsitute the parents with the actual player since they are adults...dont laugh...i know the irony...


    There is a lot of back story's that are well known on here (I'm not sure if you've heard them yet or not?) about Ron & Jermaine. But there are also story's of Ron & Rick that don't always get mentioned as much as they should.
    im probably familiar with most of what u speak...though i wont pretend to know everything...but i think i know most of what ur alluding to...more reasons u really dont like ron and ones that in my eyes are much more valid in some respects than the one u like to mention with kirilenko for reasons i already stated...the issues ur referring to are real...and definitely very serious...


    Before last season Jermaine made a comment in the Star about having to dedicate more time to Ron to make him feel part of the team (read: babysit Ron) & how differant team members were taking turns with Ron. I'm sorry but the guy brings the team down when it becomes necassary to do that. I don't care who the player is. If it was Jordan or if it was Magic, nobody would be worth the entire team trying to make sure they were happy & content.

    u see...when u interject that babysit comment...well....i dont think i even have to say....

    is it not possible that, given its well known ron is somewhat of a loner that he needs to be sought out by others to be made to feel like hes more part of the group...ron is not the first person in the world to not be outgoing when it comes to being part of groups....there are many people who are very uncomfortable and insecure when it comes to such environments....u may think that a bit comical...but its real...very very real...
    whether its fair or not to the other team members to put that responsibility on them...thats another issue...but ultimately management intervenes because its deemed to be in the best interest of the team...those that are good at mingling and getting along with others will be asked to do so with the ones that are not....in this case trying to bring ron into the fold so that he might have more of a support system is definitely a worthwhile and necessary action....rons problems and successes and therefore the teams successes are ultimately going to be determined a great deal by how his teammates support him thru some very difficult and complicated situations...

    and theres a very big difference between doing this to just be happy and content and doing it in an attempt to try to develop a closeknit almost family like support system, not only for ron, but for all....but ron is definitely the one biggest in need....though with s. jack, he might not be too far behind in needing that strong support system in the locker room....

    if u think that doing this brings the team down...well....it might be more time consuming and intense....but the potential results could be a very close knit team that is able to deal with most anything together....

    if u have a family member who is problematic...do u say its just not worth it to seek him out, even repeatedly? i guess some do....which doesnt speak well for the quality of that family...but many families will stop at nothing until that family member has indeed worked thru most of their problems and the result is a close knit family that is much better prepared to deal with whatever life might throw in their way....great relationships rarely come with out a price....usually the greater the price the greater the relationship....


    Anytime Ron doesn't get his way he either goes public with his thoughts about how he doesn't know if he wants to play here or not (like he did on two occasions Carlisle first season) or he somehow gets a migraine.

    Well the star fessed up about covering up for Ron during last seasons playoffs when Kravits outed Montieth for this & I'm not sure that isn't why Mark doesn't cover the Pacers on the beat anymore. I'm not saying it is but it wouldn't suprise me either.

    I digress.

    Ron has faked issues before about headaches when he doesn't feel as though the offense goes through him enough
    once again....there are obviously serious issues with regards to his behavior and he has handled situations that arent to his liking....by that i mean he has made many mistakes....most of which i think he realizes only at a much later date....these all keep going back to ron's response mechanism....how ron responds to situations that he might perceive to somehow pose a threat to him in some sort of distorted way....

    i would tell u that these fake injuries that u speak of as well as the speaking out is a pretty basic, although immature, call out for assistance....rebelling in its most simple form is simply a plea for attention...in rons case it doesnt appear to be so much as a plea for attention as it does an alarm that there is an issue that is unresolved....

  16. #91
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen
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    BUT, and this is a big but, how long do you hold the franchise hostage to the plan of rebuilding Artest? As I said before, I am aware of his history and the problems he has faced. It is also obvious that many people have used him for his skills but not really helped his personal issues, which should have been addressed before he left school.

    There comes a time though when Ron has to make the decision to help himself. Sure the team can support him, but that is not their primary responsibility. This isn't a YMCA league. The other guys on the team are playing for their pay checks and can't afford to have to baby sit Ron in order to help themselves. As talented as he is, they have to be getting tired of it.

    If Ron doesn't understand what he is doing, and I have no idea if he does or not, than he won't fix the problem. Ron remindes me of the 4th graders I teach. They know how to talk the talk about right and wrong, but keep making the same dumb choices. When I ask them why they do that, they give me a look like they have no clue. I then have to sit down with them and reteach and explain how to change their ways. I also make the point though of stressing that it is not going to change until they decide to do it. Ron is tha same way.

    I hope like heck Ron has had the light come on and can get himself together. But, as Peck stated, until he does, I just can't bring myself to trust him yet.
    if ur a teacher then i think u know that its just not as simple as the light coming on....the children that u teach just dont suddenly have an epiphany and all is well....

    at what point do u stop teaching the children, as u say? i think we continue to do these things even when, at times, it seems most of our hard work is not accomplishing much....

    as a teacher though i think u realize that its a process....and u probably werent the first to talk to these kids and probably wont be the last...

    and i really wouldnt concede to u that the rest of the students are being held hostage because u might have to deal with some more individually more often...is it ideal? hardly...but then again we usually see some sort of value attached to it and find a way to continue to do so in a manner that can hopefully be beneficial to all

  17. #92
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    if ur a teacher then i think u know that its just not as simple as the light coming on....the children that u teach just dont suddenly have an epiphany and all is well....

    at what point do u stop teaching the children, as u say? i think we continue to do these things even when, at times, it seems most of our hard work is not accomplishing much....

    as a teacher though i think u realize that its a process....and u probably werent the first to talk to these kids and probably wont be the last...

    and i really wouldnt concede to u that the rest of the students are being held hostage because u might have to deal with some more individually more often...is it ideal? hardly...but then again we usually see some sort of value attached to it and find a way to continue to do so in a manner that can hopefully be beneficial to all
    Actually, if I feel that a student is not benifiting from my instruction and he or she is "holding the others hostage" by not chooseing to make the right decitions then I would have them put into another class. Unfortunately, I have had to do this. It usally helps that student to be in another class. Am I happy about it? No, because I really want the student to get things straightened out. I even interact and keep in touch with the student to try to do so. That is my job, preparing students to be productive people in all parts of life. I only wish I had more time to give each student the attention they need.

    That though is not the Pacers job. While I think we all want Ron to improve and become a better person as a whole, there will come a time when a choice has to be made if Ron's behavior does not improve.

    By the way, I really have enjoyed reading this thread. All the fun threads we have besides, threads like this are what makes this forum the great place it is. A real civilized discussion!


  18. #93
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    do you really think this sort of info would be made public??...i know u would like to know...i know many fans would like to know...though it wouldnt really accomplish much...then they would just say things that are often said regarding people who seek counseling....once again its about a mindset....

    if ur down on someone....u will use whatever happens to only further that point...in this case...those of u that have disdain for ron would only be saying something like...the guy has been going to a shrink for over a year...its obvious hes nuts....or something like that....im not saying u would personally....but i think u catch my drift-at least i hope...noone...not ron, not the pacers stands to gain anything by their being a public admission of him being in therapy....

    some of u like to say the smokescreen bird uses to keep his trade value up...what the hell do u think would happen to that, let alone his reputation in the league if it were all over the papers he was in treatment...seriously? this is a very private matter that is noones business....except those that are very, very close to the situation....and by that i mean, even his fellow players would not be atune to this...but if u look at his behavior in the 'better season' 03-04...and are somewhat familiar with some psychological profiling...it becomes apparent that there was something definitely going on....that nite of the brawl, it was very very evident that there were things at work, believe it or not....this doesnt mean that everything is fixed once u start....its something that is a neverending process in a lot of ways....however progress definitely takes place....its unbelievable how penal the nite of nov 19 ended up being....noone could ever dream that a 'relapse' could be so penal....as i said earlier...its kinda ironic that 2 or 3 years ago ron would have just gotten into a fight with ben....and the repercussions would have been far less severe...but sometimes progress can work out to be disadvantageous....
    I don't buy for a second that there was any real progress shown in 2003-04. There are plenty of threads in our archives about Ron's disruptions, concerns about our chemistry, etc. The only difference was that, for most of the season, we were winning and things were easy for him. When things got tough, and we went 7-7 in December, there was the benching for "onduct detrimental to winning". When things got tough, and we were in some intense playoff battles, there was the meltdown. It seems that every time he was faced with a challenge, he failed.

    Well, the purpose of this thread was to get you up to speed with why some of us felt it was the last straw at least a year ago (if not even earlier). Everything he's ever going to do in the future is just prove that we were right all along. So I'm tired of talking about him and I'm checking out of this thread.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #94
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Issue # 4

    He's a great player however he is not the single best player to ever play kind of player. Yea, I know this should go under issue # 1 again but I'm gonna put it here.
    ok...ill agree...if theres gonna be a single greatest player to ever play hes probably not it...not sure what that means..or the relevance....been alot of teams that have won titles without jordan-if that would happen to be ur choice...pick whomever...

    Ron Artest can contribute to a title or to a great team, but he is not the end all be all of a team. If we cannot win a title without Ron Artest then there are serious flaws to our team. As has been pointed out by other posters, teams have won titles without Ron Artest being a member of that team.
    this one uve received quite a bit of flack for...and i understand why...not sure this is really how u feel or if ur just trying to devalue ron in ur minds and others so as to be able to somehow prepare urself for moving on....also if u dont want him on the team and feel he should be traded im not sure that u could do that knowing or saying that u couldnt win a title without him....

    however the premise of this is probably a bit flawed....hes one of ur two best players....most everyone that ive ever seen , read, talked to or whatever believed that our title chances were officially eliminated when he was banished for the season....

    now u might argue that we could never win with him as long as hes a distraction....that i might buy...and yes u dont have to have ron artest to win a title....however....though u might disagree because of this personal dislike, the odds of winning a title for the pacers with ron artest are astronomically better than without him....and thats really what it comes down to....now...do the odds increase dramatically if hes somehow able to play without the behavior issues???? it would seem so...and thats ultimately what is strived for....

    i almost hate saying this....but remember...the bulls won championships with dennis rodman....and without dennis rodman....when they won he was still being dennis....and providing distractions and disruptions was a common place thing with dennis....in some ways the two are remarkably similar...and in others they are worlds apart....dennis was and is what he is....and had zero desire to be anything different....in fact he saw nothing wrong with how he was....ron appears to be different from that...he realizes how he is in some ways and its not too hard to believe he wants to get better....however doing it is much more difficult than saying it....but it is worth something...

    in short hes a top 15 player in this league...the best defensive player in this league...arguably an overall top 5 talent....and from the business side a steal of a contract....theres a whole lotta reasons u have for wanting him on ur team....any team with that caliber of player stands a much better chance of winning a title than without


    Issue # 5

    This is an on the court issue btw, but in tense games when discipline is called for I don't trust him. I don't for a min. beleive he won't break a play & call his own # when the play is clearly called for someone else.

    If a player out plays him I am always afraid how he will react & I don't mean physical either. I'm talking about shooting dumber shots or making worse choices. Take last seasons game 6 vs. the Pistons. Ron just was being abused by Prince yet he kept forcing it. Eventually as the game ran down he totally abandoned the play sets & ran whatever he wanted to.
    when u dont like someone...u dont give them the benefit of the doubt...u have preconceived notions...as u have clearly defined....its almost like u want to say i told u so....though im really not sure how anyone can derive much satisfaction from that....

    if he breaks the play and calls his own number he will be the first player in the history of the nba to do that.... cmon....i know what u mean...but once again...if u wanna make it clear u dont like the guy , u have...but really...what allstar doesnt do this??? hell what non allstar doesnt do this...i will say this...as ron gets better...everything about him will get better....

    once ron and his teammates learn to trust one another, they will all get monumentally better...reggie said as much...and ron and jo have a ways to go in this department....maturing to the point where u understand u can help ur team by not doing everything sometimes is a tough one to learn...he is far from the first one to have to learn that lesson...and far from the first to have a tough time doing it.....one need look no further than michael jordan for a primo example of this....its a great players mentality that they can win it on their own when the chips are down....hell aj tries doing it...and hes no jordan or artest....its almost a given mentality at that level....the ones that mature thru that process almost always find greatness...

    is ron guilty as charged here? of course...why single him out? i know..i know...u dont like him..

  20. #95
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Ben Wallace's mother died a couple years ago. I don't remember him threatening retirement. Tinsley's mom died a couple years ago, I dont remember him threatening retirement either.

    Players that are 25 don't threaten retirement unless they have some loose screws.
    Reggie's house burned down, and he threatened retirement. Is he crazy?
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  21. #96
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen
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    Actually, if I feel that a student is not benifiting from my instruction and he or she is "holding the others hostage" by not chooseing to make the right decitions then I would have them put into another class. Unfortunately, I have had to do this. It usally helps that student to be in another class. Am I happy about it? No, because I really want the student to get things straightened out. I even interact and keep in touch with the student to try to do so. That is my job, preparing students to be productive people in all parts of life. I only wish I had more time to give each student the attention they need.

    That though is not the Pacers job. While I think we all want Ron to improve and become a better person as a whole, there will come a time when a choice has to be made if Ron's behavior does not improve.

    By the way, I really have enjoyed reading this thread. All the fun threads we have besides, threads like this are what makes this forum the great place it is. A real civilized discussion!

    and i think this is probably where the fact that the pacers franchise is a business and the school is not becomes a difference....it definitely becomes in the pacers best interests to insure he gets better....they have a tremendous investment and are trying to win a title and more than likely feel that rons improving improves their franchise and their business as well as their chances to win that title-which is really the main goal...

    ive said it before...and ill probably say it again....a managements responsibility is to identify and maximize an employees strong points...while identifying and improving his liabilities....

    only when u dont feel like the potential is there do u just cast off the project...i dont think its so hard to determine why the pacers feel hes worth the added effort...i also feel like the pacers are a special organization-meaning id like to think my hometown team has a special place in its heart for one of its own that they can help...while its no charity case-they stand to gain tremendously by doing so-i like the idea that theyre not so quick to pass him off just because its a difficult and involved process to better ron as well as the organization...

  22. #97

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    You keep on believing that, and I'll keep calling you "ostrich"



    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  23. #98
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I don't buy for a second that there was any real progress shown in 2003-04. There are plenty of threads in our archives about Ron's disruptions, concerns about our chemistry, etc. The only difference was that, for most of the season, we were winning and things were easy for him. When things got tough, and we went 7-7 in December, there was the benching for "onduct detrimental to winning". When things got tough, and we were in some intense playoff battles, there was the meltdown. It seems that every time he was faced with a challenge, he failed.

    Well, the purpose of this thread was to get you up to speed with why some of us felt it was the last straw at least a year ago (if not even earlier). Everything he's ever going to do in the future is just prove that we were right all along. So I'm tired of talking about him and I'm checking out of this thread.
    by your own words u said that u thought he had gotten better in 2003-04...if ud like ill dig them up...u just said them a bit earlier....nevertheless...

    i disagree with u on the purpose of the thread...i had asked peck why it seemed he was so out of character when discussing artest...why he appeared to have such a deep seated disdain for ron....

    to say that what he does in the future makes u right...is a very telling statement...

    personally, since hes a member of the pacers, i would hope that even if u feel the way that u do...that u would at least u would hope that u would be wrong....but it doesnt appear by that statement that that is the case...sorry to hear that...

    personally, id always prefer things work out the best for people...even if i have my doubts....especially when the people involved obviously have deep seated troubling issues....

    but i wish u luck and appreciate u taking the time to offer ur contributions...they were well stated and well thought out...thx

  24. #99

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I don't buy for a second that there was any real progress shown in 2003-04. There are plenty of threads in our archives about Ron's disruptions, concerns about our chemistry, etc. The only difference was that, for most of the season, we were winning and things were easy for him. When things got tough, and we went 7-7 in December, there was the benching for "onduct detrimental to winning". When things got tough, and we were in some intense playoff battles, there was the meltdown. It seems that every time he was faced with a challenge, he failed.

    Well, the purpose of this thread was to get you up to speed with why some of us felt it was the last straw at least a year ago (if not even earlier). Everything he's ever going to do in the future is just prove that we were right all along. So I'm tired of talking about him and I'm checking out of this thread.
    I don't know about offcourt issues, but as far as on the court is concerned, there was a definite improvement with Ron. I thought he did a terrific job keeping himself under control for the year, and he got I think 2 suspensions, both of which were both terrible calls. Flagrants were down, and there were no horrendous outbursts like the camera. The Rip Hamilton stuff in the last game was a great act by Rip, and because it was Ron, he got the foul. But he definitely improved on the court.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  25. #100
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    I don't know about offcourt issues, but as far as on the court is concerned, there was a definite improvement with Ron. I thought he did a terrific job keeping himself under control for the year, and he got I think 2 suspensions, both of which were both terrible calls. Flagrants were down, and there were no horrendous outbursts like the camera. The Rip Hamilton stuff in the last game was a great act by Rip, and because it was Ron, he got the foul. But he definitely improved on the court.
    the improvement issue is very simple and defined....but there is an obvious attitude that we see that doesnt really want to acknowledge this because as we have seen it would mean that they might have to admit they were a bit wrong....to me , i dont really understand this logic...if im a pacers fan, id like to see signs of improvement from ron....and if i was wrong about missing it, that would be a good thing...but thts just me....which ultimately is what i keep getting to but am not getting a very accurate response...why do we want to see this guy fail???? why do we want to not like him??? it seems it should be the opposite...but i dunno...

    ur true..his on court control was better in 03-04...less incidents...fewer flagrants...etc...

    but now heres the real difference...and one which is really noticeable from a psychological profiling standpoint....

    the physical confrontations disappeared....which is almost always the first thing u try to eliminate....realizing theres a better way than to handle things in a physical manner...
    there was a dramatic turnaround here....and thats why the brawl situation was even more interesting....

    noone wouldve ever believed that ron artest would have not involved himself in a fight when physically attacked by ben wallace....noone...not only did he do that but the year prior he avoided all of those as well....

    its always easy to not see something that disappears....and therefore easy to not give the credit where its due....this is also an obvious sign that he was receiving counseling and therapy....

    its simple really...the ron artest from 2002 gets into a huge fight with ben wallace when jacked in the throat....the 2004 ron didnt....those that dont want to give ron the proper credit will try to discredit this i suppose, or follow it up with he went in the stands....but in therapy its all about steps and progress....what happened afterwards inexcusable...but it doesnt take away from what happened prior either....from a therapy standpoint they were two different situations....
    the other thing is going into the stands was not acceptable...and rons temperature was running high....but going and grabbing someone and asking him did u do it is still a bit of an improvement over decking the guy...albeit still physical and definitely a relapse

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