Page 12 of 14 FirstFirst ... 2891011121314 LastLast
Results 276 to 300 of 342

Thread: An answer for Fortaz......

  1. #276
    Member SycamoreKen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Age
    44
    Posts
    10,462

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by kingfrog
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    man, i would almost like to see what foretaz has to say except that the font he uses is simply far too annoying to look at. it would be nice if that font were unavailable. nothing personal but, that font is awful and i won't read any post by people who feel they have to do something like that to stick out.
    I'm wondering exactly what problem you and others are having with this font and color? It comes through very clear at all settings on my computer. Are some people using a different background or something?

    Where do I find the directions for changing font and color? I feel like being annoying!

  2. #277
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Again your into the let's make them a better person phase. I have no real problem with that but at some point in time the person has to be willing to be a better person.
    do u really believe that ron doesnt want to get these issues resolved? like ive said before....if he appeared to not be interested on that my personal feelings would be a bit different...but from what i can see...albeit from a distant....it would appear that he wants these things to get better....he doesnt seem to have that attitude that many true troublemakers do...that they revel in it...that they enjoy it...it appears ron is tormented by these things...not many people enjoy torment...doesnt seem to be such a stretch, from everything we see, to believe hes not content with how things are, and would like for them to get better...

    Also I couldn't disagree with you more if I wanted to about one thing. While one person cannot totally be responsible for team chemistry, one person can certainly be responable for ruining team chemistry.

    A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.
    i dont agree with either of these...especially the cliche....accurate with a chain...not when it comes to the basketball....were we as good as eddie gill or john edwards this year? ummm.....as ive said before....those that manage maximize the things that players do well and minimize what they dont while trying to improve upon them....if ur a terrible shooter, u dont shoot 30 times a game...if ur a bad rebounder u work to get better....sorry...but that cliche has always bothered me and i found it somewhat weird that u mentioned it given my personal feelings on it....

    GOD, I HATE THAT CLICHE

    as far as chemistry goes...i dont believe a player like ron-who is not a cancer-can destroy team chemistry....it might take more of an effort on the other players part as well as the coaches....u see ron doesnt appear to have a bad attitude-which to me is what a cancer is-therefore i refuse to believe he can ruin the attitude of the others...however, if not handled correctly i totally agree that it could...and i put this responsibility on the coaching staff and management....anytime u have a situation like rons that needs special attention-the others must be on the same page and be informed of what is their responsibility with regard to the teams chemistry....its when people dont really understand the problem and dont understand the plan to fix it that problems often arise...


    The fact that Ron Artest is such a damn good player is the problem. Do you think for one min. the Pacers would tolerat 1/8 of the stuff he does if it were Eddie Gill doing it instead? I think we can all agree they wouldn't.

    problem? or opportunity?...i find the fact that hes a great basketball player hard to believe when looking for problems...great motivation to help him with his problems is what i would call it...call it a vested interest...call it a business/selfish reason to be involved...but dont call it a problem...if eddie gill played like ron artest i would hope they would take the same approach....if eddie gill played like eddie gill does? probably not...which is kinda sad...but another discussion...

    i do think tolerate is a bit of a poor choice of words....i dont think they tolerate anything...and that mindset is the problem....that he seems to be getting away with something...and people dont like it....with bad behavior comes punishment and consequences....i would think the overall message is that it wont be tolerated....that it has to continue to get better....ron lost 5 million dollars and that was probably the easiest in the way of what his consequences were....to say his behavior has been tolerated is inaccurate...


    So this brings us to your next theory that it is managements problem to get everybody to get along. Well, great. Now how do you do that? Do you force them to sit in the showers & sing sea chanties? Team dinners? Bowling?
    i never said it was managements problem....i said the role of responsibility falls to management....u see how this negative mindset just keeps appearing with u over and over and over....sigh...

    i appreciate ur sarcasm...i really do...when doing these posts its a nice change of pace....

    but what u do is first and foremost....u get ron help...and thats an ongoing situation....u work on resolving the issues....thats the only way this is ever gonna truly go away....realizing its an ongoing issue...u then have to involve the team....by making sure they have a proper understanding of whats goiing on...what the situation is-on a need to know basis....and most importantly identify what THEIR responsibilities are in the whole process....not unlike making allowances for poor individual defense with built in team defensive schemes you also have attack the issue of team chemistry as a group....get ron better-while hes getting better get the team better...you do that the same way u defend ur goal....u identify everyones responsibility and hold them accountable...the awareness and being made a part are the big things...and if done correctly can potentially bring the team together....


    I know that you don't dig Croshere but I think it's safe to assume (ok maybe it's safe to assume if you don't like Artest) that he isn't the only person in the locker room who feels like he did in that interview with the N.Y.Times. He said some very nice things about Ron, but he also said he didn't trust him (In not so many words)


    Now let's just play my game for a min. shall we? Let's assume that Austin is not the only person who feels this way. They all seem willing to try but at the end of the day they all feel the same way, if push comes to shove or in Ron's case he doesn't get the ball at the end of a game, that he will fold faster than a Japanese oragomi artist.

    How does management correct that? A seminar? A motivational speaker? Tony Robbins?

    Now let's take this one step further & say that Ron does do something to **** them off again. What should management do then?

    I guess what I'm getting at is that from the best of what I can tell they have done to Ron everything they can do to Ron & about the only person who I think has ever had any impact on Ron is David Stern. Love him or hate him I think we all can agree that Ron will never go into the stands again thanks to Stern.

    I said something to U.B. two seasons ago & he became all indignant about it but I think as time has gone on he now has to look back on that & think maybe I was right about it then. I said that the Pacers were afraid of Artest. I didn't mean physically, I meant in the sense that they did no know how he would react. I saw him do several things Carlisle's first year here that Rick said in the summer he would not tolerate, but Ron was given a very very long leash & it took all the way up to the N.J. game before we got a conduct detrimental to winning basketball suspension. Tough love was going to be the order of the day but with Ron I'm of the opinion that they didn't know how he would react (kick a gatorade cooler which I've seen him do more than once, throw a chair, wreck a locker room, etc.)

    But then again, I'm predisposed to think these things.
    people are fearful of what they dont understand...they didnt understand the problems so they didnt really understand the solution...so yes...it becomes a bit of a time bomb waiting to go off....rons situation is pretty unique and definitely requires things that have nothing to do with coaching and typical team management tasks....trained professionals to deal with rons problems are the only ones that are going to be able to help ron, which, in turn, will allow him to be a better basketball player and teammate....with the egos that exist in the nba, people often think something along the lines that 'oh i can handle him, or my style willhelp him'...in many cases yes...rons case-no...his problems have nothing to do with basketball...as should be purely evidenced by the the actual behavior problems that he has had....

    bottom line....nba people are in no way remotely qualified to help ron with his problems....only when they realized that did they start on the path to real progress and recovery....anything else was just an aberation...



    I think since Mike is gone now it's safe to openly talk about this. Jermaine O'Neal told Mike Brown in the tunnel outside the locker room the day after the team was elimenated by Detroit in the E.C. finals (clean out the locker day btw) that Ron Artest needed to be gone. He said this in front of at least 2 other people & he was not quiet about it at all.

    Which brings me a question to you. What if that conversation had not been with Mike Brown but had been with Donnie Walsh & in that conversation the following words were said "I love being here, I love being a Pacer, I want to end my career here but I can't be on a team with Ron Artest. I would prefer it if you would trade Ron away but if you can't I would prefer to be moved on".

    Now let me ask, in my hypothetical question, if you were Donnie who would you choose? Now before somebody gets on here & tells me that they would have just told J.O. to stick it in his @ss because he was under contract please understand it doesn't work that way. Trust me on this, Ron has a huge fan base. It has grown by leaps & bounds since the suspension because he is now a martyr. But when this conversation went down Ron had his fans but J.O. had the vast majority of fans. All it would have taken would have J.O. to go public with some of the stuff & then people would have been all over the Pacers about Ron.

    I digress.

    Of course we all know about the plane fight, the locker room fight, the destroyed locker room in Mn. & the list goes on & on.

    At what point in time is enough enough.
    another somewhat crucial part of the situation i believe....
    BTW...as far as when enuff is enuff....see my other post...just remember 777

    JO and all of this....management doesnt get paid the big bucks for nothing....players get paid alot of money to play...donnie and larry and the like get paid alot of money to manage....

    but ur right ..u dont tell someone to stick it up their a$$...it doesnt work that way...

    im reminded of a conversation i had one time with an engineer that worked for my father....he told me of a time he had just had it....he was so pi$$ed about a number of things that he went screaming into my dads office (i know u mentioned jo was being very calm and collected, which is fine) to tell my father off and to quit...he told me, "i dont know how ur father does it" "i walked out of his office an hour later went back to work, and felt really silly on the one hand for the way i had acted, but very grateful to ur father, on the other hand, for taking the time to calmly and respectfully help me look at all the factors involved and decide what was truly in MY best interest"...i might mention i had this conversation with him about a year after the incident and he was still happily employed in the same position....

    thats the way it works....JO is young...and immature at times...these sorts of emotional thoughts are understandable...the train of thought is understandable....and goes to what im talking about when u dont fully understand what is going on....u have to believe that there is way for success....JO didnt see it at that time...the world doesnt work that way....if JO would have gone or does go to donnie or larry it would probably work out similar to the aforementioned conversation....

    i will tell u this....i firmly believe that the comments larry made regarding jo a week or so ago point directly to this....jo as the leader of this team has to realize that the sort of action-demanding ron be traded-is not acceptable...moreover if he doesnt embrace the idea and fully understand the situation to the point that he can lead this team thru these sorts of issues, then they will look for someone who can....jo doesnt make the decisions on whats best for the ball club....larry and donnie do that...i read the other day where one of the few times larry brown wasnt much involved in personnel matter was when he was here....thats one of the many reasons this franchise has been so successful under donnies regime...though he s made mistakes there are no questions whose in control and whose making the proper calls....

    i like JO....and ive seen him mature alot...and just as larry said i think JO will grasp this task and run with it....i get the feeling jo can accomplish alot if he sets his mind to it....and he has to set his mind to the fact that he and ron are goiing to lead this team to a championship....and its up to him to make sure that he handles things in maybe a bit more mature way than not allowing someone on a plane or into his locker room.....thats posing and not really leading....but jermaine is young so i give him a pass for those things and an A for effort...

    i wonder if jordan ever went to krause or jackson and said...its rodman or me....maybe a younger jordan wouldve....a wise mature jordan said we need him and its up to me to see that we get the most out of him on the court so we can win a championship...


    I now wish to turn the tables a little on you & ask you to examine yourself on this. Is it just possible that since you are a fan of Rons that you are predisposed to look beyond these issues? That you will hear what you want to hear just like I hear what I want to hear?

    Or is it only those of us on the Anti-Ron side of the fence that have this abilty?
    i cant speak for those of u on the 'antiron' side....i can only speak for myself...

    i feel im not prejudiced nearly like some of u 'antiron' are....if for no other reason i feel im somewhat objective...and this is why....

    i dont think you will catch me trying to downplay many of the things ron has done...ESPECIALLY off the basketball court....on the court...maybe...because i will always give those with the most talent the most leeway on the court...its human nature....look at jordan....this game is all about players doing things that surprise us....

    anyway...if i look beyond its only in once sense....seeing a ron when hes put most of his emotional issues to rest, figuratively speaking, and seeing a teammate that can be a leader of this team for many successful years to come....however i believe there will be issues along the way...these types of things arent easy...however if the proper people are involved and the proper steps are taken for the team i believe it can be a very successful process...and the end results will be worth the effort...at last count we still havent won an nba championship....i believe we will multiple championships with JO and ron as the cornerstones as long as certain steps are followed...

    im not the type of person who will try to typically twist things around to necessarily make someone else dislike something i dont like...i welcome the opportunity for differing likes...if uve noticed, i dont expect u to like ron, though i cant help but think ur inclined to do so, i only wish people would look past the surface to see whats really going on and not just take the easy wayout and say hes lunie and get rid of him....

    as u know...i dont like austin....so i make a special effort to dwell strictly on his performance...and when i dont like something i try to put forth extra effort to make sure im being unbiased....its not easy...but if ur aware of the problem...and yes, i think some of u have a problem when it comes to this....then its easier to address...as u say though, u first have to acknowledge u have the problem and then want to do something about it....i was hoping after some of this discussion u might want to do something about it....but i realize thats not my call

    i can only say this...i havent been around here long...but u will seldom see me wear blinders where anyone is concerned...i call spades spades...if my favorite guy fukks up...i say so...

    but my favorite thing...just as i did with u...is to ask...why did he/you do that?

  3. #278
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,045

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    as u know...i dont like austin....
    I think I've read most of your posts, and you say you don't like Austin a lot.

    What is it you don't like? Do you dislike him as a person or player or both? Austin doesn't have an attitude and he doesn't rock the boat, so other than his game and contract, what's there not to like?

  4. #279

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think I've read most of your posts, and you say you don't like Austin a lot.

    What is it you don't like? Do you dislike him as a person or player or both? Austin doesn't have an attitude and he doesn't rock the boat, so other than his game and contract, what's there not to like?
    It's the hair....the HAIR!!! With 8 million dollars, he could at least get a wig...
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  5. #280
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I know that sounds silly but you would not beleive how many times we have read over the last two years on here that not only would the Pacer not win a title without Ron, they wouldn't even be much above a .500% team. I kid you not when I say there have been a couple of people over time (not our faithfull PD members but some of the fringe) that would actually compare Ron to Jordan. But even reasonable thoughtfull posters can fall prey to some of this. Uncle Buck (who is the man btw) himself falls prey to this on occasion. When he says that the season ended on 11/19/04 it wasn't because of the turmoil, it was because without Artest he didn't beleive we were a very good team.

    I guess I just have always felt there are some players you can live without & Ron is just one of those IMO.

    Ok, I guess I should have gone one more paragraph down before I talked about U.B. because you just did the same thing. Let's just agree to disagree on this I don't feel the season title hopes were ended on that night. An entire season of turmoil & injury's did in the season IMO, but you are entitled to yours.
    you dont want him here....and u want to win a championship....how could u take the stance that u do if u felt he was necessary to win that championship....we as humans often want to belittle the importance or devalue something that we have decided we dont want....it hurts less that way....

    all i would say is this....do u really believe that all the things he brings to the team from a basketball standpoint is not needed to win a championship....not that it matters, but any other basketball player with basketball skills anywhere similar to his make 2 to 3 times more than he does(with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions-usually rookie contracts) and since there are financial constraints to be followed it seems highly unlikely the pacers would fare as well without him...

    youve said hes a great basketball player...great teams with great basketball players win championships....if u get rid of him ur more than likely not gonna replace him with a great player....which means ur chances diminish...


    Now to the Rodman thing. Two huge huge differances.

    1. Michael Jordan was on that team & was the unquestioned leader on the floor, in the locker room & at practice. He was the most strong willed player to probably ever to play the game & Rodman did not cross any lines that Mike laid down for him.

    2. Phil Jackson allowed Dennis his rebellions as long as it did not take away from the team. Dennis never at the end of a game decided that he should take over on the offensive end, so Phil didn't have that problem.

    Now as to winning or not winning a title without Ron or with him. I'll say this, yes, if unencumbered by distrations & problems any team would want a Ron Artest. However when you take him you take the whole package so therefor you will get his distrations & problems. A mentally tough & strong team can over come this. Our team is not (by their own admission) this.

    As to being one of the best players in the NBA, I've never really questioned that. I don't know where he ranks in a top 20 list or anything like that because how do you compare him to what a center or point guard does. I will just say this. If T-Mac is a small forward he is a better s.f. than Ron, if King James is a s.f. then he is a better s.f. than Ron. That's it & if neither is a S.F. then Ron is probably the best S.F. in the N.B.A.

    But no matter how good he is if he can't get along with his team mates, follow his coach's instructions or not melt down in stressfull situaitons I would take a less talented player in his spot.
    bottom line is ...rodman did provide many distractions and disruptions....whether it was headbutting refs or kicking cameramen or whatever....that was with dennis everywhere he went...what it says is its quite possible to win, even while those things are happening....now my choice would be to not have those things... but teams have to overcome all sorts of things to wiin a championship....u prefer they be as few as possible...but whos to really say....

    hes a great player, as u say....with problems that lead to distractions and disruptions...these problems are fixable and are able to be dealt with if handled correctly....why not do that?



    I want to deal with this right here. It's kind of like being the one person in town who see's the wolves in the night. Everybody in town thinks you are nuts & an old cook, but once the chickens have been killed & others see the wolves you feel like a prophet & certainly wish others would have listened to you early on. Now while I'm not prophet I do wish people would have taken a hard look at him prior to this season. & yes to answer your question sometimes I do feel like saying "I told you so".
    saying i told u so feels good...especially since none of us have any control over the situation...i realize that....

    ron is not a wolve stalking the chickens however....hes a team member who wants the exact same things....

    it doesnt take a rocket scientist nor a prophet to see that he has issues....nor is hard to point out that these issues will be the source of consternation from time to time....

    i think u should give people a bit more credit....i think the important people are and have been taking a very hard look at this....and been very proactive in dealing with it...though not to everyones approval...but then would u really expect that? bottom line is the people that matter are able to take a much more indepth look than u and i and have many more facts available than u and i....do u not trust their judgement? something tells me u r a pretty intellignet individual....if ur area of expertise was the same as donnie and larry and u were indeed in their shoes i have a sneaking suspicion u would be making the same decisions....take that as a compliment because thats the way its intended....



    Why single him out????? Are you kidding me?

    I may be dumb here but honestly can you think of any one Pacer that has gone on his own in late game situations that went away from the called play other than Ron & maybe Jamaal? You can't compare J.O. on this because the play is called for him to shoot usually. You can have a problem with this if you want (I do btw) but you can't fault J.O. for going with the play. Do other players break plays? Of course.

    But none at such critical times in critical games.
    its not that i dont want to be objective...and not that i want to ignore this...its just that i feel that if u start trying to second guess everything that goes on the court, there is no end to it...it goes to mindset...there is no such thing as a perfect ball player....even the very greatest make many of the mistakes u mention...especially earlier in their careers...and bottom line ron is still only 25 or whatever....

    weve agreed hes a great basketball player....i will agree he makes mistakes on the court both mental and physical....to me this makes him just like everyone else....

  6. #281
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think I've read most of your posts, and you say you don't like Austin a lot.

    What is it you don't like? Do you dislike him as a person or player or both? Austin doesn't have an attitude and he doesn't rock the boat, so other than his game and contract, what's there not to like?
    i should probably quit saying that....cause most round here probably think that i feel about austin the way some around here feel about artest...

    nothing could be further from the truth...i do think the comments he made in the ny times article were very inappropriate...not because they were about ron..but because i thought it was the sort of thing that should be kept in house...i dont think it did anything to help matters....now that being said...i was surprise he made those comments....i thought it a bit out of character for him...hes a big team guy...

    austins not one of my favorites...thats what i really mean...ive got nothing against him at all...i think he tries hard and gets the most out of what hes got to work with....do i think hes drastically over paid???yup...but i dont blame him for that one little bit...i would have done the same thing if in his shoes....and i understand why the pacers did it...its unfortunate and it sux...but it just happens in the business theyre in...

    i guess this is the best way to describe it....i root for him just like the other guys....i do kinda cringe however when he comes to the scorers table....i think hes a very specialized player in this league and should probably be a guy that is off and on the IL....and have said i would hope he would resign with the pacers at the end of his contract and finish his career out here...all at the vets min

    ive been careful, i think, to say i dislike him...if i said that im sorry...but i dont think i did....i rarely have much dislike for anyone....especially on my beloved pacers....i think austin and eddie gill suck....but just where their performance is concerned....problem there is eddie makes almost no money relatively speaking while austin makes scot pollards salary to suck a relative bargain...

  7. #282
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,045

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I still don't quite understand what you just said. I agree you should probably quit saying you don't like Croshere, though. Generally when someone says they don't like someone it means they dislike them.

    I can honesty say I don't like about 5 billion people, because you can't really like someone you don't know. However, I don't dislike those 5 billion people either.

    Now you follow the Pacers and you know about Croshere, so when you say you don't like him, your readers are naturally going to think you dislike him. If you don't feel one way or the other about someone you generally don't say anything about them.

    I do understand what your saying when you explain he's not one of your favorites though.

  8. #283
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm dealing with this here because I don't want this to get lost. I would only have said same ole Ron because of the cheap bump he gave Ben. But other than that I feel (& of course have no way to prove) that I would have had zero problem with Ron punching Ben square in the jaw. In fact I feel as though my respect for him would have gone way up because then I would take my big bully theory & throw it out the window.

    Also again two can play this game. You basically are saying that no matter what Ron does he will always be forgiven by you & that you will overlook & condem his actions at the same time. But back on point I would have felt great if he went toe to toe with Big Ben.
    whats wrong with forgiveness?? it makes both parties feel much better, trust me...repeat after me 'Ron, I For.....'....anyway...i just dont see the sense in not forgiving and holding a grudge and harnessing the hate....it serves no purpose...it really doesnt...doesnt do u any good...doesnt do ron any good..and doesnt do any of the fans-like on here-any good..

    i will continue to condemn bad behavior when it happens...ill try to not hate anyone for it...unless they show no remorse or interest in changing it...

    part of me woulda liked to see him fight with ben...but i realized by not doing that, that he was making progress...if people wanna make him a bully for that...well thats their choice i suppose...



    peck...and i mean this with all due respect....u ve made it obvious that u dont like him....i would propose or at least hope, that everything u outlined to me in this very well thought out post doesnt say that....what it has said is u truly dont like rons behavior at times....that u find it totally uncacceptable....u havent really told me or described to me how u dont like him....in fact by your own words he should be ur favorite....this is very telling....

    because ur basically saying i dont like the way ron responds or exercises judgement in certain scenarios....thats really what i take from all this...and its a far cry from not liking the guy...IN FACT
    what u have really done is identify whats truly the issue....

    U DO LIKE THE GUY...U LOVE THE GUY...HE SHOULD BE UR FAVORITE...but u cant allow urself to have a favorite that has behaved the way he has....and i understand that....i really really do....its like u have built this defense mechanism to keep from being hurt by ron any more...

    u quit giving him a chance a long time ago...u just couldnt risk it....cause u knew he would break ur heart...i mean he always does....and every thing that happens u just say to anyone that listens...'see, i told u so' i was right...wanting that validation that the decision u made was the right one-even though somewhere inside its not the one u want....

    i dont want to make this too deep....but at the same time, it seems very clear to me....i just couldnt understand and still cant understand how it is possible to have such disdain/hate for a basketball player even if they are guilty of inappropriate responses and poor judgement....

    but now we see its really not about that...its about putting our trust in someone and then having them let us down....and that can cause the venom to spew....

    so i would say this....and i began to touch on it in a post on this thread earlier...

    i understand how all of the events u described are unacceptable...with most of them i agreed....however, i try to really understand why people do what they do...not just what they do....because peoples responses and reactions are very telling....

    some people are just a$$holes and d!cks....i really dont think ron falls in that category...and i dont think u think he does either...its very apparent that ron has deepseated emotional issues with regarding response mechanisms that come from way way back....its also pretty apparent that he needs to continue to get the help that he obviously has been getting since larry bird came on board....these issues arent easily resolved and definitely take some time....but if u look very very closely, and are truly objective...he has made progress...he really has....is he better?? hardly....will he have relapses? certainly....so that means more risks for those that choose to put a certain amount of faith in him...but really....is he a bad guy? no...you cant help but like tons of things about him...u know thats true....its called managed expectations....its about understanding all thats really goiing on...so u can better deal with it...not just us as fans but the players and organization as well.....
    having a proper understanding of what problems are go along way to helping deal with the ebbs and flows that they can create....being a fan and not having any idea at times, can be even more difficult...and i truly understand why people would simply not risk trusting him....

    but at the very least...dont hate him...because u reallly dont...u actually like so many, many things about him...you only hate some of his behavior patterns from the past...realize why he has done those things-that hes got some very deep seated problems with the way he sometimes processes things...and take consolance that hes working on making them better...though probably will never do so as quickly as we would all like, especially ron....trust me when i tell u...as difficult as it is on the organization and us fans....there is no one its more difficult for than ron....the pacers can just trade him away....the fans just can choose to hate him....ron has to live with his life and can only choose to try and work thru all those events that took place in his childhood that caused him to think the way that he does
    ....
    this to me is what really goes to the heart of the matter...the original question being why do u have so much disdain/hate for ron....

    to which u said....


    Plans change. That`s how I live my life now. Let`s please move on...

    ummm...i think u stole that line from another post....

    and im not really sure how to take that...but it still seems like thats really kind of right to the point...goes right to the root of the disdain and hate...again...please at least give it serious consideration and consider the possibility...

  9. #284
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I still don't quite understand what you just said. I agree you should probably quit saying you don't like Croshere, though. Generally when someone says they don't like someone it means they dislike them.

    I can honesty say I don't like about 5 billion people, because you can't really like someone you don't know. However, I don't dislike those 5 billion people either.

    Now you follow the Pacers and you know about Croshere, so when you say you don't like him, your readers are naturally going to think you dislike him. If you don't feel one way or the other about someone you generally don't say anything about them.

    I do understand what your saying when you explain he's not one of your favorites though.
    agreed....i shouldnt say it...because when i say it...especially when i just type it on here....it conveys the wrong meaning...if i said it in a conversation with someone in person...it might make sense...on here it doesnt....

    as is obvious...i type my thoughts...in pretty much the exact way i would say them...ill definitely try to watch that....

  10. #285
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Peck-

    Not sure if this had been discussed, but if Ron is such a bully, why didn't he fight back when Pierce shoved him in last year's playoff? He could easily take Pierce, yet he chose to fall back and smile at him from the floor.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  11. #286
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Oh no, I've been found out!!!!!!

    Ok all joking aside even you have to admit that was fairly deep, so deep in fact I don't even know how to answer it.

    Again I just want you to consider the fact that the things that I saw back then were still there before he was suspended for the year last season.

    But no matter what, have no fear, I am the one who has almost no choice. Ron Artest will probably be a Pacer for a good long while & that will give us years & years of debate over the subject.

    I had no predisposition to Ron Artest one way or the other. Jay knew far more about him than I did so when he came here I was just thrilled he wasn't Jalen Rose. But it wasn't my feelings that were at issue, it was his actions.

    Again I'll just say all he has to do is give me one good season where I don't have to hear about him & I'll back way down.
    i hope he gives us a season we hear about him all the time....something tells me we will always be hearing about him...i just hope the vast majority of the times are positive....

    because to be honest....im not sure i can take this kind of back and forth action for the years to come...

    i think i gotta buy a new keyboard and a carpal tunnel brace now...

    if u could find a way to just treat him like all the other pacers and hold him to the same standard as u do them, that would be great i think...i m not asking for a david harrison mindset(wait till u find out what i think about that guy )....just maybe an austin croshere or eddie gill mindset...

  12. #287
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    i m not asking for a david harrison mindset(wait till u find out what i think about that guy )....just maybe an austin croshere or eddie gill mindset...


    Explain yourself.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  13. #288
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    [/color]

    Explain yourself.
    he loves harrison...i know that...i dont expect him to show the same love of harrison to ron...

    just to not hate him either...it was more of a joke than anything

    as far as my feelings on harrison....thats a different thread....if a thread is started about him....i would probably put my thoughts of him on there....i think ive interjected them before when hes come up...but as i think about it im not sure if i have on here....it might have been when i was on rats...not sure...

    im not gonna start a thread on him though...i was gonna do one about being a fan....but my hands kinda hurt..lol ill get to it...

    but, if u did start a nother thread bout david...id probably be inclined to respond...

  14. #289
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Before I start this I want to point out that I feel very much like Al Pacino in the Godfather movies. I keep trying to leave this & they keep sucking me back in!!!!!!!

    Oh well here goes another night.....



    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    do u really believe that ron doesnt want to get these issues resolved? like ive said before....if he appeared to not be interested on that my personal feelings would be a bit different...but from what i can see...albeit from a distant....it would appear that he wants these things to get better....he doesnt seem to have that attitude that many true troublemakers do...that they revel in it...that they enjoy it...it appears ron is tormented by these things...not many people enjoy torment...doesnt seem to be such a stretch, from everything we see, to believe hes not content with how things are, and would like for them to get better...

    This is before your time but I think it's worth repeating. I said at one point in time in some thread (I don't know which one) that Artest fans are like battered wives. No matter how bad he is, deep down inside he is still a good person & all it will take is more love from them to bring out the goodness & we will all be alright. Sounds like every single battered spouse I've ever dealt with. No matter how bad they are beat they keep coming back because only they can see the goodness. Man if you could actually step away from the light that it Artest & read yourself.

    How the hell would either of us know what Ron Artest thinks about how he acts. I'm saying either of us because I am including myself in that as well, because if I set here & told you that I thought he didn't give a rats @ss that would just be speculation on my part. I have no idea. Just like you have no idea. You mentioned this in another post but you said it was managments job to portray Ron in a positive light & let me assure you that almost every single interview that he has was set up by the Pacers & now is set up by his new image management team. You see a contrite Ron Artest because that is what they want you to see. It is in everybody's best interest to see a contrite Ron Artest (just like you said). Now whether it is the truth or not I have no idea. However I will say that how you view it is based on your own beleifs when it comes to Ron. In other words Jay will see an interview with Ron & will yell "Bull*****) at the screen & Uncle Buck will see the same interview & will weep like a little girl because he feels the anguish & pain that Ron is talking about.





    i dont agree with either of these...especially the cliche....accurate with a chain...not when it comes to the basketball....were we as good as eddie gill or john edwards this year? ummm.....as ive said before....those that manage maximize the things that players do well and minimize what they dont while trying to improve upon them....if ur a terrible shooter, u dont shoot 30 times a game...if ur a bad rebounder u work to get better....sorry...but that cliche has always bothered me and i found it somewhat weird that u mentioned it given my personal feelings on it....

    GOD, I HATE THAT CLICHE

    as far as chemistry goes...i dont believe a player like ron-who is not a cancer-can destroy team chemistry....it might take more of an effort on the other players part as well as the coaches....u see ron doesnt appear to have a bad attitude-which to me is what a cancer is-therefore i refuse to believe he can ruin the attitude of the others...however, if not handled correctly i totally agree that it could...and i put this responsibility on the coaching staff and management....anytime u have a situation like rons that needs special attention-the others must be on the same page and be informed of what is their responsibility with regard to the teams chemistry....its when people dont really understand the problem and dont understand the plan to fix it that problems often arise...


    I find it very telling that you just used the term "i refuse to believe". Other than that we will just agree to disagree on this. I said above & I'll say again if it were Gill or another lesser player this wouldn't even be an issue the Pacers would not tolerate it. But it is the fact that he is a talented player that we are even going over this (duh!!!) Look I have no idea of your work life or anthing like that but I will just say that if you depend on a person to help you complete a task or goal then certainly you are going to help them as best as you can. But you will only do it for so long if it directly impacts your job status. You can talk about the 777 rule or whatever but at the end of the day if your boss is going to come down on you as a group my guess is, that like most of us, your self protecting mechanism will kick in & you will make certain that someone knows the person you depend on is a fcuk up & will ask for someone else.

    Now I'm not saying that you would do this the first time or even the 7th time. But I bet three years into something you might consider it. That is why I think it is unfair for you to place the responsibilities of Ron Artest on other players shoulders. They have thier own jobs to do & he's had three years of them trying to "help" him.



    problem? or opportunity?...i find the fact that hes a great basketball player hard to believe when looking for problems...great motivation to help him with his problems is what i would call it...call it a vested interest...call it a business/selfish reason to be involved...but dont call it a problem...if eddie gill played like ron artest i would hope they would take the same approach....if eddie gill played like eddie gill does? probably not...which is kinda sad...but another discussion...

    i do think tolerate is a bit of a poor choice of words....i dont think they tolerate anything...and that mindset is the problem....that he seems to be getting away with something...and people dont like it....with bad behavior comes punishment and consequences....i would think the overall message is that it wont be tolerated....that it has to continue to get better....ron lost 5 million dollars and that was probably the easiest in the way of what his consequences were....to say his behavior has been tolerated is inaccurate...


    No, I wouldn't say his behavior has been tolerated either, to a point. Stern certainly didn't tolerat him did he.


    i never said it was managements problem....i said the role of responsibility falls to management....u see how this negative mindset just keeps appearing with u over and over and over....sigh...

    i appreciate ur sarcasm...i really do...when doing these posts its a nice change of pace....

    but what u do is first and foremost....u get ron help...and thats an ongoing situation....u work on resolving the issues....thats the only way this is ever gonna truly go away....realizing its an ongoing issue...u then have to involve the team....by making sure they have a proper understanding of whats goiing on...what the situation is-on a need to know basis....and most importantly identify what THEIR responsibilities are in the whole process....not unlike making allowances for poor individual defense with built in team defensive schemes you also have attack the issue of team chemistry as a group....get ron better-while hes getting better get the team better...you do that the same way u defend ur goal....u identify everyones responsibility and hold them accountable...the awareness and being made a part are the big things...and if done correctly can potentially bring the team together....


    Here is where the cruxt of the argument is. I may be taking you totally wrong here but I just get from you that you just don't understand that these are not knew problems. They have been trying to work with him for 3 years.

    Your issuing responsibilities to his team mates to help make him better. What if they don't want to? Do you trade them?

    What tells any of them that what Ron is doing is wrong? Why shouldn't Fred Jones next season break some stuff & throw a hissy fit just to get his way? It works for Ron, why shouldn't it work for Fred or Jeff or Jamaal?




    people are fearful of what they dont understand...they didnt understand the problems so they didnt really understand the solution...so yes...it becomes a bit of a time bomb waiting to go off....rons situation is pretty unique and definitely requires things that have nothing to do with coaching and typical team management tasks....trained professionals to deal with rons problems are the only ones that are going to be able to help ron, which, in turn, will allow him to be a better basketball player and teammate....with the egos that exist in the nba, people often think something along the lines that 'oh i can handle him, or my style willhelp him'...in many cases yes...rons case-no...his problems have nothing to do with basketball...as should be purely evidenced by the the actual behavior problems that he has had....

    bottom line....nba people are in no way remotely qualified to help ron with his problems....only when they realized that did they start on the path to real progress and recovery....anything else was just an aberation...


    Actually the only real way they started along the path of progress & recovery was when Stern took him out for the season. Right or wrong Stern will be the one person who actually will change Ron's on court issues because I have a very sneaky feeling that Ron will be on a very short leash.



    another somewhat crucial part of the situation i believe....
    BTW...as far as when enuff is enuff....see my other post...just remember 777

    JO and all of this....management doesnt get paid the big bucks for nothing....players get paid alot of money to play...donnie and larry and the like get paid alot of money to manage....

    but ur right ..u dont tell someone to stick it up their a$$...it doesnt work that way...

    im reminded of a conversation i had one time with an engineer that worked for my father....he told me of a time he had just had it....he was so pi$$ed about a number of things that he went screaming into my dads office (i know u mentioned jo was being very calm and collected, which is fine) to tell my father off and to quit...he told me, "i dont know how ur father does it" "i walked out of his office an hour later went back to work, and felt really silly on the one hand for the way i had acted, but very grateful to ur father, on the other hand, for taking the time to calmly and respectfully help me look at all the factors involved and decide what was truly in MY best interest"...i might mention i had this conversation with him about a year after the incident and he was still happily employed in the same position....

    thats the way it works....JO is young...and immature at times...these sorts of emotional thoughts are understandable...the train of thought is understandable....and goes to what im talking about when u dont fully understand what is going on....u have to believe that there is way for success....JO didnt see it at that time...the world doesnt work that way....if JO would have gone or does go to donnie or larry it would probably work out similar to the aforementioned conversation....

    i will tell u this....i firmly believe that the comments larry made regarding jo a week or so ago point directly to this....jo as the leader of this team has to realize that the sort of action-demanding ron be traded-is not acceptable...moreover if he doesnt embrace the idea and fully understand the situation to the point that he can lead this team thru these sorts of issues, then they will look for someone who can....jo doesnt make the decisions on whats best for the ball club....larry and donnie do that...i read the other day where one of the few times larry brown wasnt much involved in personnel matter was when he was here....thats one of the many reasons this franchise has been so successful under donnies regime...though he s made mistakes there are no questions whose in control and whose making the proper calls....

    i like JO....and ive seen him mature alot...and just as larry said i think JO will grasp this task and run with it....i get the feeling jo can accomplish alot if he sets his mind to it....and he has to set his mind to the fact that he and ron are goiing to lead this team to a championship....and its up to him to make sure that he handles things in maybe a bit more mature way than not allowing someone on a plane or into his locker room.....thats posing and not really leading....but jermaine is young so i give him a pass for those things and an A for effort...

    i wonder if jordan ever went to krause or jackson and said...its rodman or me....maybe a younger jordan wouldve....a wise mature jordan said we need him and its up to me to see that we get the most out of him on the court so we can win a championship...


    So what your saying is that Jermaine either has to shape up & accept that Ron is his responsibilty or you are willing to see him go instead of Ron???? That's not what you said, but from what I read that's what you mean.

    You do understand that one of Ron's problems is Jermaine??? Don't you???? Ron thinks he is the franchise player, Ron does not like the offense to run through J.O. Ron wants to be the M.V.P.

    Now you can argue all you want that maybe Ron is right & I'll be honest I have no real idea. I'm not thrilled with either of them being the focus of the offense, however when it comes to trust I go with J.O. every single time.

    Also back to the Jordan thing. It was well reported that M.J. went to Rodman & set conditions for him to be there. He basically didn't give a crap about his hair, his antics or his practice habits. But he would not mess with the young players or screw with their offense. Rodman accepted this & they got along.

    Do you think Ron would accept terms from J.O.? Let me answer that for you, no he wouldn't.



    i cant speak for those of u on the 'antiron' side....i can only speak for myself...

    i feel im not prejudiced nearly like some of u 'antiron' are....if for no other reason i feel im somewhat objective...and this is why....

    i dont think you will catch me trying to downplay many of the things ron has done...ESPECIALLY off the basketball court....on the court...maybe...because i will always give those with the most talent the most leeway on the court...its human nature....look at jordan....this game is all about players doing things that surprise us....

    anyway...if i look beyond its only in once sense....seeing a ron when hes put most of his emotional issues to rest, figuratively speaking, and seeing a teammate that can be a leader of this team for many successful years to come....however i believe there will be issues along the way...these types of things arent easy...however if the proper people are involved and the proper steps are taken for the team i believe it can be a very successful process...and the end results will be worth the effort...at last count we still havent won an nba championship....i believe we will multiple championships with JO and ron as the cornerstones as long as certain steps are followed...

    im not the type of person who will try to typically twist things around to necessarily make someone else dislike something i dont like...i welcome the opportunity for differing likes...if uve noticed, i dont expect u to like ron, though i cant help but think ur inclined to do so, i only wish people would look past the surface to see whats really going on and not just take the easy wayout and say hes lunie and get rid of him....

    as u know...i dont like austin....so i make a special effort to dwell strictly on his performance...and when i dont like something i try to put forth extra effort to make sure im being unbiased....its not easy...but if ur aware of the problem...and yes, i think some of u have a problem when it comes to this....then its easier to address...as u say though, u first have to acknowledge u have the problem and then want to do something about it....i was hoping after some of this discussion u might want to do something about it....but i realize thats not my call

    i can only say this...i havent been around here long...but u will seldom see me wear blinders where anyone is concerned...i call spades spades...if my favorite guy fukks up...i say so...

    but my favorite thing...just as i did with u...is to ask...why did he/you do that?
    Your objective & unbiased? Ok..... I guess that makes me unobjective & biased.

    I guess I can live with that analogy if thats the way you see it.

    Also a side note. You have several times made it a point to say you don't like Croshere. What is it you don't like? Is it his game or him as a person or what?

    I have a feeling we are set in our thoughts on this. No matter what I say you are not going to see Ron other than the way you see him now (which in my minds eye is a picture of Ron helping little old ladies across the street & then playing with puppys) while I will see Ron as I see him (which I'm sure in your minds eye is Ron tripping blind people & stealing from the salvation armys collection pots).

    All I guess we can do is this.

    For my part I can try not to b!tch that Ron is still here everyday & I guess try & lay off those love Artest. (but you have to give me Uncle Buck, if I can't blow him crap about the nutball then life is just not worth living for me)

    For your part do not excuse or caveat his bad behavior.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  15. #290
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    [QUOTE=foretaz]

    you dont want him here....and u want to win a championship....how could u take the stance that u do if u felt he was necessary to win that championship....we as humans often want to belittle the importance or devalue something that we have decided we dont want....it hurts less that way....

    all i would say is this....do u really believe that all the things he brings to the team from a basketball standpoint is not needed to win a championship....not that it matters, but any other basketball player with basketball skills anywhere similar to his make 2 to 3 times more than he does(with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions-usually rookie contracts) and since there are financial constraints to be followed it seems highly unlikely the pacers would fare as well without him...

    youve said hes a great basketball player...great teams with great basketball players win championships....if u get rid of him ur more than likely not gonna replace him with a great player....which means ur chances diminish...


    I don't feel that Ron Artest is necassary to win a title. I am perfectly comfortable with Jackson being the three if you tell me the shooting guard is going to be able to score about 20+ ppg & play decent defense. That's right I said I'm comfortable with Stephen Jackson at the three.

    bottom line is ...rodman did provide many distractions and disruptions....whether it was headbutting refs or kicking cameramen or whatever....that was with dennis everywhere he went...what it says is its quite possible to win, even while those things are happening....now my choice would be to not have those things... but teams have to overcome all sorts of things to wiin a championship....u prefer they be as few as possible...but whos to really say....

    hes a great player, as u say....with problems that lead to distractions and disruptions...these problems are fixable and are able to be dealt with if handled correctly....why not do that?


    What choice do I have? He will be here so they might as well do something to fix him if they can. I'm not sure it's as easily fixed as you say, but whatever.




    saying i told u so feels good...especially since none of us have any control over the situation...i realize that....

    ron is not a wolve stalking the chickens however....hes a team member who wants the exact same things....

    it doesnt take a rocket scientist nor a prophet to see that he has issues....nor is hard to point out that these issues will be the source of consternation from time to time....

    i think u should give people a bit more credit....i think the important people are and have been taking a very hard look at this....and been very proactive in dealing with it...though not to everyones approval...but then would u really expect that? bottom line is the people that matter are able to take a much more indepth look than u and i and have many more facts available than u and i....do u not trust their judgement? something tells me u r a pretty intellignet individual....if ur area of expertise was the same as donnie and larry and u were indeed in their shoes i have a sneaking suspicion u would be making the same decisions....take that as a compliment because thats the way its intended....


    Thanks for the compliment but I want to point out something. Donnie & Larry while telling everyone they were doing nothing were working feverishly behind the scenes last year to move Ron. If it weren't for the younger Maloof brother Ron would be a King right now & we would be talking about how we need someone better than Peja to win a title. Both Memphis & Milwaukee have confirmed that the Pacers tried to give them Artest last summer & the pacers themselves all but admitted that they tried to shop him for T-Mac.

    If they are guilty of anything it was that they may have tried to get to much in return to begin with for Ron, but as the summer wore on they lowered their expectations to Mike Miller. Think about that for a min. Mike Miller. Now I like him as a player but we are talking the reining DPOY. I think even Bird & Walsh saw the storm coming & tried as best as they could to avoid it.

    As to what they say now. I go back to your own words. It is in the best interest of the franchise to put forth a positive light on Ron. They did this last summer as well, all the while trying to move him.




    its not that i dont want to be objective...and not that i want to ignore this...its just that i feel that if u start trying to second guess everything that goes on the court, there is no end to it...it goes to mindset...there is no such thing as a perfect ball player....even the very greatest make many of the mistakes u mention...especially earlier in their careers...and bottom line ron is still only 25 or whatever....

    weve agreed hes a great basketball player....i will agree he makes mistakes on the court both mental and physical....to me this makes him just like everyone else....
    I swear I thought your last line was going to be that this makes him just like Jordan. Thank God you didn't say that because I think I would have had to jump off the bank one building if you did.

    Only 25..... I know people who make life & death decisions every single day that are younger than 25.

    Ok, I've admitted that Ron is a great ball player but I think my thoughts on him being a great ball player are differant than yours. I mean I think he is good, way above average. I think you think he is a special player or am I misunderstanding you?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  16. #291
    Harmonica
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If they are guilty of anything it was that they may have tried to get to much in return to begin with for Ron, but as the summer wore on they lowered their expectations to Mike Miller. Think about that for a min. Mike Miller. Now I like him as a player but we are talking the reining DPOY. I think even Bird & Walsh saw the storm coming & tried as best as they could to avoid it.
    Mike Miller? Where the heck did you get that?

  17. #292
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    whats wrong with forgiveness?? it makes both parties feel much better, trust me...repeat after me 'Ron, I For.....'....anyway...i just dont see the sense in not forgiving and holding a grudge and harnessing the hate....it serves no purpose...it really doesnt...doesnt do u any good...doesnt do ron any good..and doesnt do any of the fans-like on here-any good..

    i will continue to condemn bad behavior when it happens...ill try to not hate anyone for it...unless they show no remorse or interest in changing it...

    part of me woulda liked to see him fight with ben...but i realized by not doing that, that he was making progress...if people wanna make him a bully for that...well thats their choice i suppose...


    Ok let me try this & see if it works.

    Ron I for.......(innervoice) Keep trying Peck only with love can you overcome this demon of hate that is in you(innervoice).

    Ron I for..... I forg...... I forgive you!!!! Praise Jesus I've seen the light I can feel the heavyness in my heart lifting by the Birds of Paradise as we speak.

    Join me brothers in a dance of rejoicing...









    No, wait I still hate Ron. That was just gas escaping.



    this to me is what really goes to the heart of the matter...the original question being why do u have so much disdain/hate for ron....

    to which u said....




    ummm...i think u stole that line from another post....

    and im not really sure how to take that...but it still seems like thats really kind of right to the point...goes right to the root of the disdain and hate...again...please at least give it serious consideration and consider the possibility...

    Perhaps you didn't read the sage wisdom of Earl, but I figure it's words for all of us to live by.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  18. #293
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Mike Miller? Where the heck did you get that?
    You.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  19. #294
    Harmonica
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You.
    I don't think so. And if you did, please PM me. Because seriously, I don't recall that.

  20. #295
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    i hope he gives us a season we hear about him all the time....something tells me we will always be hearing about him...i just hope the vast majority of the times are positive....

    because to be honest....im not sure i can take this kind of back and forth action for the years to come...

    i think i gotta buy a new keyboard and a carpal tunnel brace now...

    if u could find a way to just treat him like all the other pacers and hold him to the same standard as u do them, that would be great i think...i m not asking for a david harrison mindset(wait till u find out what i think about that guy )....just maybe an austin croshere or eddie gill mindset...
    But I love Austin Croshere....

    Anyway you make compelling arguments & it's been fun.

    I don't agree with a lot of what you have to say about Ron but I do appreciate the fact that you can type as much ramblings as I can.

    You certainly are a good addition to our ranks & I think over the year we will have fun... ahem.. discussing Ron.

    I don't know if there is anything else left to say about Ron so maybe we should start something about Jermaine.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  21. #296
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think so. And if you did, please PM me. Because seriously, I don't recall that.
    No, I was just kidding about it being you.

    It's a two pronged source.

    One of which was Hubie Brown the other of which I can't tell you because this person works for someone you know.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  22. #297
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Oh Hell if this sucker is going over 300 I'm going to be the one to do it.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  23. #298
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Oh Hell if this sucker is going over 300 I'm going to be the one to do it.
    you! I was waiting to do that, but got caught up reading some of the purple!

    This means war!

    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  24. #299
    Harmonica
    Guest

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No, I was just kidding about it being you.

    It's a two pronged source.

    One of which was Hubie Brown the other of which I can't tell you because this person works for someone you know.
    It couldn't have been that serious. But...you're right. Bird and Walsh saw the storm coming and tried as best as they could to avoid it. I've said many times on here that their only mistake was trying to get equal value for Ron. But that's only human.

  25. #300
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,611

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It couldn't have been that serious. But...you're right. Bird and Walsh saw the storm coming and tried as best as they could to avoid it. I've said many times on here that their only mistake was trying to get equal value for Ron. But that's only human.
    You know what, I actually agree on that.

    Hell for once I don't even blame for this. At the time I'm sure they had no idea how bad it would get so they tried to get something in return.

    As to how serious? It wasn't that serious but not because of us. West did not want any part of Artest. I think they started out talking about Swift but then dropped down to Miller. But either way Jerry wasn't budging.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •